Bonni: [00:00:00] Today on episode number 154 of the Teaching in Higher Ed, Penny MacCormack shares her teaching lessons from the road.

Production Credit: [00:00:10] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Bonni: [00:00:21] Welcome to this episode of Teaching in Higher Ed. I’m Bonni Stachowiak and this is the space where we explore the art and science of being more effective at facilitating learning. We also share ways to increase our personal productivity so we can have more peace in our lives and be even more present for our students.

Bonni: [00:00:47] Today I get to welcome Penny Maccormack to the show. She is the chief academic officer at the Association of College and University educators, otherwise known as ACUE. She has been an educator and leader at the school district and state level for over 25 years. Before joining ACUE, Penny served as chief academic officer for the New Jersey State Department of Education and an adjunct professor at Southern Connecticut State University and Montclair State University. Penny holds a master’s in Liberal Studies from Albertus Magnus college, a six year professional diploma in educational leadership from Southern Connecticut State University, and an EDD in educational leadership from the University of Harvard. Penny is also the author and co-lead of the college and career ready task force for the New Jersey Department of Education.

Bonni: [00:01:46] I’ve really enjoyed getting to know penny in the process of preparing for today’s episode. She is a lifelong learner who is motivated by a mission to unite quality education and quality teaching and a goal to provide all college university instructors with the attention and support they deserve.

Bonni: [00:02:06] Today’s episode is a little bit different because hopefully we will leave you with a feeling like you just got to take a little vacation when you’re done listening because penny is going to take us on a trip she is going to help us travel all the way across the United States. As she shares stories from her trips in visiting college classrooms and meeting with leading subject matter experts.

Bonni: [00:02:28] And this was all a part of the process that she went through to develop the ACUE course. This is a course that is twenty five one hour modules across five major units of study. And I’m just going to go through them quickly so you can get an idea of the types of content that she explored. We’ve got the ACUE’S effective practice framework that contains designing an effective course and class establishments a productive learning environment using active learning techniques, promoting higher order thinking, assessing to inform instruction and promoting learning and that is just a glimpse at really what is a terrific resource for many of our instructors.

Bonni: [00:03:14] And ACUE was founded by leaders in higher education to ensure that all college students receive great instruction. We’re going to hear a little bit about Penny and her team visiting 13 colleges and universities having filmed more than 50 award winning faculty and interviewing 22 subject matter experts as a part of her research and development. And whew I’m already exhausted. Well our chips going to be very relaxing though and energizing. Don’t worry don’t worry.

Bonni: [00:03:43] Penny also oversaw a comprehensive literature review that includes three hundred and fifty citations from the scholarship of teaching and learning. I’m so excited to be welcoming Penny to this show. Penny, welcome to Teaching in Higher Ed.

Penny: [00:03:59] Thank you. Happy to be here.

[00:04:01] Well as we are many of us looking for some summer time although the show is listened to all over the world so some people are going into winter. But I’m kind of excited because today we get to take a trip with you in fact not only one trip but we get to take quite a few trips with us and hear a little bit about all of these adventures that you did both in research team but also especially in preparing all the great resources around this course so I think we’re going to start at the University of Arizona is that is that correct.

Penny: [00:04:35] Sure. We can start there.

Bonni: [00:04:37] Tell me about meeting John Pollard there and some of the things that you’ve gleaned from the University of Arizona up.

Penny: [00:04:43] So first let me say that it was absolutely an honor to go on these trips you know to have this unique opportunity to meet with great instructors across the nation and subject matter experts and the scholarship of teaching and learning in Arizona we met with several faculty and specifically the science faculty working on active learning in the large classrooms.

Penny: [00:05:10] So John was there and acted as an expert and you know one of the things that we have him on film saying is that you can basically do any active learning any active learning practice that you can do this small class you can do in a large class. And while while that statement is powerful I think knowing that we would capture him on film in his 200 student classroom engaging with them watching this really cool video of oil solidifying on the top of water you know that everybody including me were like wow. And then asking them at their tables to draw a picture that would represent what was happening chemically was really compelling. And you’re one of the things that we always do is we interview students as well so I will never forget a student from his class saying ever so simply you know I’m awake in this class and I’m awake because I am completely engaged in everything that we’re doing. So that was really a powerful very simple statement. And again you know the filming of just watching 200 students completely engaged in what was a chemistry classroom was it was really compelling.

Bonni: [00:06:33] I’m sure it’s got to be hard to try to put that in words. In fact we received a couple of pictures from your adventures on all these trips and all of the links to the videos that we’re going to be talking about today as well as these pictures are going to be available at teachinginhighered.com/154 in case anyone wants to get an actual picture of what this whole filming process looked like.

Bonni: [00:06:58] And one of the next people that I know that you got to visit was Mike Wesch out of Kansas State University. And I wanted to mention quickly that he is a past guest of the show and someone that I have just I’ll admit to being a complete fan of his work. Including his video that he has where he learned how to do handstands because he’s always trying to learn more and more and more he’s just a question on a hunger for continuous learning. So I’m curious if you had any shots that you got of Mike doing any handstands in his class.

Penny: [00:07:31] You know we didn’t get a shot of Mike doing handstands and we did get a shot of another faculty member from another institution doing a cartwheel joke because all of the students in her class room and she had promised her students class and this is a class from about 500 students that indeed if they all responded correctly to one of her questions that she would do a cartwheel and lo and behold we were lucky enough to be there for that conference.

Penny: [00:07:59] So you know what’s interesting about Mike is when we first were on the phone because what we usually do is you know get on the phone with our instructors and ask about what they do and share with them some of the evidence based practices that we’re looking for. And with Michael I was on the phone asking him about a graphic syllabus I have heard that you know he he does some pretty amazing work on his syllabus. And I you know I was explaining. You know there is an evidence based practice that if you have this graphic syllabus that kind of visualized is how the course comes together is one coherent whole it’s really powerful and you know what he said to me was Well actually I do a big idea syllabus and he explained how his big idea syllabus allows students to understand the big ideas he wants them to leave the class with to truly change the way they think about their world. And you know I think an important thing to share with the audience is that we build the course with faculty and we learn with them and once he explained the big ideas syllabus. I knew capturing that on film would be powerful for all. And so we went ahead and featured a big idea syllabus via Mike’s work.

Bonni: [00:09:20] It can be such an important and also extremely difficult thing to do because we just get this feeling we have to cover so much and whenever we start to use language like coverage we know we’re in trouble because it is really these bigger rocks these bigger concepts the bigger ideas that are so vital but it’s just hard not to get lost in it all so it’s wonderful that we can be inspired by his work in that area. I know that our travels are going to take us now to Vegas where are we heading in Vegas.

Penny: [00:09:53] We are heading to the University of Nevada Las Vegas. And what happened there was I had started to learn more and more about work by Mary-Ann Winkelmes and it was on this transparency in general but in particular I was attracted to work she did on developing a transparent assignment and you know what that really means is that when faculty design an assignment they make sure that it’s clear to students what the purpose of the assignment is. What they’ll learn from the assignment whether it’s something that they might need for the course or future coursework or indeed even life skills you know for their careers or are you an engaged citizen. So all of that is clearly laid out. The expectations are clearly laid out their sample so that students really understand the work that they need to do. Now as you might imagine you know I’m traveling out to do some filming and I’m simply somebody riding out a tree climbing probably wouldn’t be right the most engaging footage you’ve ever seen. And so what we did was we decided to film faculty who had used.

Penny: [00:11:12] The transparent assignment process to convert one of their current assignments to this more transparent model. And we got them on film talking about the difference that made. And so you hear faculty talking about how students ask better questions about the assignment. Now deeper more important questions about the assignment students actually complete the assignment with higher quality and in fact more students complete the assignment which I thought was pretty compelling for folks to hear you know from faculty faculty faculty. Here’s here’s what happened when I took this assignment that I had always given and I transferred it into this model. And in fact one of the things I really appreciated about the faculty at Nevada Las Vegas was they were willing to say things like. In addition this transparency work made me reflect on the assignment itself and the purpose and was I clear about the purpose and did it have a good clear purpose and was it connected by learning outcomes etc.. So it really is it’s one of those videos that we did that may not be as action packed I think is equally compelling.

Bonni: [00:12:30] It’s so great that you were able to quantify it in that way because that just adds much more richer evidence that these are things that we should try. But I’ll tell you one of the things that really helps motivate me to have transparent assignments is just it shows respect for our students that we’ve reflected on why the purpose that we’re not asking people to do things. In fact there’s a whole movement of people that are encouraging us to do the same assignments that we’re asking our students to do. And that’s something they have not done 100 percent but I have started to experiment with that. And what a difference that makes when we actually do. I mean it makes so much sense to do the same things. We’re asking our students to do and it helps us better prepare the wise and to give you know more transparent assignments I love that. I know that the next place we get to visit involves fish in some way wouldn’t be a trip if you didn’t get to see some animals and some creatures along the way. So what were the fish that you saw in your travels.

Penny: [00:13:26] So we visited Professor Tara Lineweaver at Butler University. And I started a conversation with her about the power of classroom discussion and I will never forget my call with her because she is the only instructor to ever say to me that 100 percent of her students come prepared having done the reading before they come to class and that she explained is because she does something called a peaceful discussion.

Penny: [00:13:59] And so when we went into her classroom a fishbowl discussion we learned a fishbowl discussion is a discussion that is set up with four students in the center of the circle where the rest of the class is located and the way you get to sit in the center in those four seats is she randomly picks names out of a fishbowl and students then need to go into the center and have a discussion a guided discussion on the reading and that discussion is guided from directions that she has already given them. So she doesn’t talk during the discussion.

Penny: [00:14:39] The discussion lasts for 20 minutes and the students have this full fledged discussion on the reading. And the reason that they come prepared and we have the non-film talking about coming prepared to class was twofold really. One was obviously their great achievement level would be you know determined by their ability to have a quality discussion. But the second piece that I liked very much was they didn’t want to let their peers down. They didn’t want to let down the other three people in the circle if they hadn’t done their reading and were prepared to have a good quality discussion. So I thought that was pretty inspiring.

Bonni: [00:15:21] Oh it sounds like it. I love what it sounds like she is doing too is having a positive way of putting some accountability on our students so much you hear stories about more punitive approaches and or the opposite of that more lax-adasical where there just isn’t any incentive for feeling like this is worthwhile to do the reading so that sounds really healthy to me like a wonderful community to be building in her classes.

Penny: [00:15:46] Absolutely. I mean the students in her class were having fun. They enjoyed the discussion they enjoyed meeting the challenge that she had set for them. It was clear I mean and you can see on the film of their interviews that they enjoyed the class they knew that they were learning at high level. They knew that indeed they were more responsible for the learning than necessarily the instructor telling them things and they really enjoyed it.

Bonni: [00:16:17] The next place we get to visit on our trip with you is a place that I’ve actually never gotten to visit it’s on my dream list and that would be New York City and you got to sit down with José Bowen who has been on the show a couple of times before and I’ll be linking to those past episodes if anyone wants to listen to them in the show notes as well as all the great videos that we’re getting to hear about as well. So talk a little bit about what you were able to glean from José about our teaching.

Penny: [00:16:46] Well I mean I couldn’t begin. We’d be on for another hour or so for me to talk about everything that José shared with us. I’m sure your listeners know he the president of Goucher College and he believes in the power of teaching. And so he is just a powerful speaker and can speak on so many topics.

Penny: [00:17:07] But I think the one that really touched me and this is probably because he and I see eye to eye on this one. If he talked about the importance of a girls mindset Carol Dweck’s work in basically he just said in simple language that you know if you if you think you can’t learn math that’s a problem thinking it is a problem in believing that you can learn if you put your effort for us if you persist to you try different strategies if you believe I can do this I can learn you actually become smarter. And he says in his quote and I hope you’re going to have this one that he believes this to be the most important and powerful learning tool on the planet. This belief that you can learn and I couldn’t agree more with him. I think it’s so important for students across our nation to understand and to throw away the fixed mindset idea that we are born smart or not and to understand that you can become smarter in the way you become smarter is by the same way you do you get better at hitting a baseball or playing the flute. Practice consistency of practice trying different strategies and really putting forth the effort.

Bonni: [00:18:25] That’s one of the things that’s so fun to be connected with so many people from all over the world through this podcast is that so many of the people that get in touch with me have a growth mindset and they know that they’re not where they want to be. Maybe they just have started to discover some of these research based methods for their teaching and they’re really trying to make some significant changes. But just that belief that we can make those changes. And then I don’t know if this actually came up and it has to have come up in your conversations but it’s not I was going to go well when we start experimenting so we need that growth mindset coupled with this idea that you know you’re going to fail when you start to do some of this stuff and having some resiliency around that.

Penny: [00:19:08] Absolutely you’re actually bringing me to my trip to Cal State L.A..

Bonni: [00:19:13] Oh I didn’t mean to I love this. We meant this. Yes. It’s all planned. I love it.

Penny: [00:19:19] Yeah. Because well it reminds me. We filmed Professor Kristian Ruiz-Mesa and we were filming the module on persistence and she was explaining to her class how facing challenges or feeling challenge by your learning should not cause you to think well you know what maybe I’m not made for college maybe I’m not a good student but rather to understand that struggle and learning is natural and that all of us struggle a bit and have to try different strategies and be resilient and persistent and that is how we actually achieve those higher and higher levels.

Penny: [00:20:00] So she was so impressive to me she cared deeply about her students. She’s done a lot of work with with regards to diversity. And she was actually one of the experts that I sent the embracing diversity in your classroom module too so she could review it. I wanted to make sure that we really addressed things in a powerful and appropriate way and she helped us with that module. And like I said most of these modules were built with faculty input and thought processes.

Bonni: [00:20:36] And is there another individual you on the spotlight in our trip to California or do we want to head over to the.

Penny: [00:20:43] Actually I’ve got two more I can’t help myself.

Bonni: [00:20:45] Oh, go for it

Penny: [00:20:46] Cal State L.A. has was and is is and was an amazing partner. I always have in my head and I use this when meeting with partners all the time. Emily Moss, a professor at Cal State L.A. saying and we have her on film saying who raises their hands? The students who know the answers who you need to hear from. And doesn’t that set of questions to us. You know from this fellow instructor make us really think about who raises their hands and how we ask questions and who responds and what does that mean and who should you be talking to. So I just feel like Emily helps instructors across the nation through those simple questions to really think deeply about their practice.

Bonni: [00:21:38] It sounds wonderful and really important things for us to be thinking about. And then this is such a bad reference I’m going to try it anyway but I don’t think we’re going to see another animal. We saw the fish and now we’re going to see a cat. Is this just a terrible.

Penny: [00:21:52] It’s actually not Cat Haras who is the director for the center of teaching and learning at Cal State L.A.. I just want to recognize him again. You know I think it’s important but I want to recognize her for her input in helping us build the course and all components of the course. So when we first put a number of modules out in front of faculty 400 faculty for the pilot that was part of that. And cat was always willing raising our hand saying You know what I’d like you to think about this or that and that really is the one responsible for us ensuring that faculty would look at other faculty reflections which is how they end the modules by reflecting on what went well and why it went well and how students responded as well as the challenges they encountered in studying the next step call in tap talk to us passionately about the power of their sharing those reflections with one another. And so that was a design change that we made as a result of her very good and thoughtful input.

Bonni: [00:23:03] And we have at least one more stop on our trip and we’re head and all across the country all the way down to Miami.

Penny: [00:23:12] Miami. Don’t I wish I was there now. Miami was and is continuing to be a great partner and I remember being at Ece Karayalcin’s script writing class and what was so powerful there was Ece had explained to students the format that they needed to use to write scripts and explained that that format is indeed what professional script writers use.

Penny: [00:23:37] And so the applicability right there to that this is how folks do this in the real world was potent. And in addition she explained to students that writers professional writers just like them need to edit and revise edit and revise and how important that is and how she believed that through their edits and revisions they would become better and better scriptwriters. And indeed that’s what professionals do. And the students really found that compelling. They found they they were energized by it and so energized that many many of them entered competitions that were offered in Miami for scriptwriting. So and she was able to actually share with her class several of her students who had won those contests.

Penny: [00:24:29] And so I think the students there saw the connection to the work that they were doing in the classroom in the real world. And as we know that that’s very very motivating for students especially if you want them to to persist and have that resiliency with a task as difficult as writing. We know writing can be pretty challenging.

Bonni: [00:24:52] I’ve had a chance to take the diversity module as you talked about a little bit earlier and I’ve also been able to see so many of the free videos that are available on your course again that we’ll be linking to in the show notes but I wonder when I look at them and everything I’ve ever gotten my hands on. It’s just exquisite from ACUE and I don’t say that as to you know sound like I’m trying to advertise for it or what have you but I actually mean almost the opposite right now in that it would be easy for someone like me who works at a really small institution, we don’t have resources to set up professional videos for people who want to capture those kinds of assets for their courses so I wonder is there anything that you have learned along the way that maybe might give hope to people like me that says that actually it’s some of the small things that don’t cost anything that actually can have a real effect when you’re trying to build valuable resources for students.

Penny: [00:25:54] Well I think that you know the work that we did solidified for me the strong culture of collegiality that exists on campuses across the nation. So as we were in you know campuses in California and research one institution community colleges what have you. What we learned was the strong desire faculty have learned to elevate teaching by talking about it and sharing with their colleagues. And so I would certainly recommend anyone that wants to ensure faculty are learning about and then trying out new teaching practices evidence based practices that we know are successful with students. Never forget the power of collegiality and faculty being able to talk with faculty about practice. That’s why our course is designed to include several opportunities for faculty who really have those deep conversations about instruction.

Penny: [00:27:04] And I can’t help but think about faculty. We met at Florida A&M who said to me that they had thought they talked about instruction before they engaged with some of our course modules but actually they just vented about students. And now through the process of really viewing some videos with both excellent instruction and then developing instruction they really learned how to talk about interaction with one another and give one another new ideas and critiques and really help one another continuously improve.

Bonni: [00:27:44] When I first started learning about instructional design that was way before I was in a educational, I mean it was educational. Sorry if it’s more of a training type of a format as distinguished training from higher ed of course. But one of the big people who had an impact on me was Dr. Merrill who is an emeritus at University of Utah and he stressed this is a small piece of things he taught me but he stressed that when we are demonstrating things for our students that we don’t want to just tell them here’s how you do it but also to show here’s how you don’t do it here’s not how does do that. And I wonder if you would share a little bit because I know you used at least a technique similar to that as you were creating the course.

Penny: [00:28:34] Well here’s our thinking. We knew that we wanted to show evidence based practices being used in authentic classrooms and been done very well. We knew the power of that. You know teaching is a skill set and it’s a collaboration between teachers and students. So in order to help anyone understand a particular skill or technique you could talk about it or they could read about it but if they could see it fully knew first and foremost that needed to happen. But then as we thought about warning instructors did have an opportunity to think even more deeply about that set of practices. I think we are taking a little from from the professor you’re talking about. We decided that for most of us you know we we think Gosh if it’s a colleague of mine and I are going to try a new practice maybe I’ll get to them in their classroom they can watch me and mine and we’ll be able to have this great discussion.

Penny: [00:29:34] But you know schedules always get in the way. So what we created was this virtual observation of someone trying to this out the first time. And so there are some common missteps that are made and then we offer that video to faculty cohorts of about 30 or so to have a conversation to talk about well what was done well because there’s always parts of it that go well and are done well. But then what tweaks or adjustments might you recommend because there are some common steps being made and that really gives faculty this opportunity to think deeply. I mean we’re analyzing essentially you know they get to think deeply about the practice and all of this and they have a conversation with their colleagues. All of this for they try something out new in their classrooms. So we’ve ended up hearing very positive feedback from that part of our course and faculty and we’ve been able to see it because we are face to face orientations. We’ve been able to see the rich rich conversations that happen as a result of those videos.

Bonni: [00:30:40] It’s absolutely critical that when we’re growing ourselves or trying to coach someone else to know what those strengths were and identify those and be able to build on them instead of just focusing on the negative. So I love how you approach that in terms of working with people who are going to be trying this stuff out and encountering real world problems of the reality.

Penny: [00:31:02] And I just want to I just want to give a shout out to all of those folks who were willing to do that developing practice which we scripted for them and they were willing to take that risk and be on film you know making some common missteps.

Bonni: [00:31:16] They’re very good. I thought those were professional actors. They’re really really good.

Penny: [00:31:24] No. Those were just wonderful adjuncts.

Bonni: [00:31:26] Well they’re they’re fabulous. You found yourself a good team for that piece of it. Well this is the point in the show where we each get to give some recommendations. And I actually am going to surprise you a little bit.

Bonni: [00:31:39] My first recommendation for the episode is going to be a musical one. And that is especially because this whole time Penny has been talking about it. I can’t get this song out of my head. And that is Johnny Cash’s “I’ve been everywhere”. And rather than play a little clip now like I usually do I think I’ll wrap up the show and do that as the ending.

Bonni: [00:32:02] So we’ll talk now about my second recommendation. And one thing I’d like to recommend is that if you are interested in learning more about the videos and actually getting to watch them is to go to the show notes at teachinginhighered.com/154 because we have a link to so many of the publicly available videos and it is one of those things that you don’t have to go from start to finish she could just go and fish around. Sorry another fish reference there I’m really thrilled for instance today. Fish around and go go pick a topic that is of particular interest to you and reflect a little bit on how you might be able to apply it to your teaching.

Bonni: [00:32:44] And then also I’ve really been enjoying the newsletters that come from ACUE so if you go to their Web site which will be linked to in the show notes but it’s ACUE.org. There is an ability to subscribe to their newsletter and they have some great resources and I’ve just been joyed been able to see some of the articles and other links that they provide they’re in the information so I would check those things out. And Penny what do you have to recommend for us today.

Penny: [00:33:13] So I’m going to avoid the recommendation piece ask folks to go to our Web site. But truth be told I’m going to feel guilty about not mentioning the names of every single faculty person at every single institution. We were able to visit. They all deserve time. On this podcast and I have stories for every single one of them and so I just wanted to offer a thank you to all of the faculty focus groups we’ve worked with that the 400 faculty who piloted our program as well as all the faculty that we worked with to get on film are both doing developing practice and an excellent practice. It has been an absolutely wonderful trip for me.

Bonni: [00:33:58] I can only imagine what that must have been like for you. We just celebrated 150 episodes of Teaching in Higher Ed and I have met just people that I now am in contact with and consider friends that are some of the most generous people who are just phenomenal teachers and I can imagine that you have very similar feelings but you’ve got to go and meet them in person and actually spend time in their classes and talk to students. It just sounds like an amazing experience.

Penny: [00:34:28] Nothing short of anything wonderful just wonderful.

Bonni: [00:34:31] Well thank you Penny I really appreciate your time today to share all of this great learning from this terrific. I don’t want to call it a road trip because it wasn’t literally a road trip. This travel that you took actually before we close I cannot help but ask because it didn’t fit into our outline necessarily but you’ve done a lot of travel. So before we close the show is there any tip that you want to share with people around travel to make travel a little bit more sane.

Penny: [00:35:00] Oh gosh. I think the one thing I do offer is get a direct flight whenever you can. And I think probably folks already know that but I know it’s at levels that you probably wouldn’t want to. So that’s my one trip piece of advice.

Bonni: [00:35:14] Makes a big difference. Doesn’t it.

Penny: [00:35:16] Makes a big difference.

Bonni: [00:35:17] Well thanks again for joining me. You also are such a generous person and I’ve enjoyed getting to know you.

Penny: [00:35:23] Well Bonni thank you. And thanks for the show. I think it’s terrific.

[00:35:28] The closing of this week’s show is dedicated to Christian Freidrich from Hamburg and he is not a fan of the intro music for the show. I’m guessing he’s also therefore not a fan of the outro music of the show but he did write some really kind words about the podcast in general both on Twitter and also on his blog in a post called podcasts I listen to. And I thought I’d try something different with music then for our closing this week because as I was talking with penny I could not get Johnny Cash’s song “Out of my Head”.

[00:36:03] And so here we go with perhaps a little bit of a better closing for at least Christian and the one other person who has commented on the Teaching in Higher Ed blog that is not your favorite regular closing music but I’ve also heard from a lot of people who like it too. Yeah. Here you go. So…

Johnny Cash: [00:36:47] Out of my Head playing

[00:36:48] Thanks once again to Penny for joining me today on this episode I’m Teaching in Higher Ed and to all of you for listening. If you’d like to see the resources and all the terrific videos that Penny talked about in this episode and get to go click on all the links you can do that at teachinginhighered.com/subscribe.

[00:37:05] And if you’d like to avoid having to remember to do that, you can go to teachinginhighered… I just realized I said slash subscribe… subscribe is how you don’t have to remember to go get the show notes at teachinginhighered.com/154. 154 is today’s episode number and subscribe is the link you can use to get an e-mail in your inbox each week with either the show notes and also a link to an article written by me about teaching or productivity.

Bonni: [00:37:39] So again two choices you can just go to teachinginhighered.com/154 for this specific episodes shown notes or slash subscribe to get those coming right into your inbox just a single time each week. Thank you for being a part of this community and for checking out this week’s Teaching in Higher Ed. I will see you next time.

Teaching in Higher Ed transcripts are created using a combination of an automated transcription service and human beings. This text likely will not represent the precise, word-for-word conversation that was had. The accuracy of the transcripts will vary. The authoritative record of the Teaching in Higher Ed podcasts is contained in the audio file.