[00:00:00] Bonni Stachowiak: Today, on episode number 321, Josef Woldense joins me to talk about the audience, path, and destination.

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[00:00:12] Production Credit: Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

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[00:00:22] Bonni: Hello and welcome to this episode of Teaching in Higher Ed. I’m Bonni Stachowiak, and this is a space where we explore the art and science of being more effective at facilitating learning. We also share ways to improve our productivity approaches, so we can have more peace in our lives and be even more present for our students.

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Today, I am joined by Dr. Josef Woldense. He’s an assistant professor in the African-American African Studies Department and an affiliated faculty member in political science at the University of Minnesota. He received his PhD in political science from Indiana University and a Bachelor’s in Political Studies from Bard College. His research interests are in the areas of elite politics, authoritarian regimes, political institutions, and social network analysis with a geographical focus on Africa.

Outside of research, he’s had the privilege to teach at a diverse set of institutions including Indiana University, MIT, University of Illinois, Urbana Champaign, the Bard Prison Initiative, and most recently, the University of Minnesota. He is currently assisting with the larger efforts by Governor Walz to institutionalize higher education across prisons in the state of Minnesota. He writes, “If I had to sum up what I strive for when teaching, I would say that I try to construct an environment that fosters Socratic dialogue, as displayed in Plato’s writing Euthyphro.” Josef, welcome to Teaching in Higher Ed.

[00:02:07] Josef Woldense: Thank you for having me.

[00:02:08] Bonni: You are going to take us on a journey today. I already know it, because you’re going to talk to us about story. As I was reading through your materials, you quote someone named Elisa Crone, and she writes, “Story is how we make sense of the world, but the real breakthrough is the discovery of what triggers that sense of pleasure we feel when a story hooks us.” Josef, would you talk a little bit about hooks and why they’re important as we think about storytelling in our teaching?

[00:02:39] Josef: Essentially, what it comes down to is asking the question, or it really– When we as academics deal with our subject matters, it’s incredibly complicated, intricate, and in many respects, it’s a different world that really just we, the researcher inhabit, and the challenge then becomes well, how do you get your audience to enter that world and sufficiently explore it so they can gain an understanding and engage with you your ideas.

To me, in many respects, storytelling is a technology that we as humans, in some ways have evolved, and it’s a very effective information communication device, if you will. Really, in this case, a hook to me is about what it means to get your audience to enter that world and then continue traversing that world, which is, in many ways very challenging, especially when you’re dealing with an audience that to them it’s almost like a cultural shock.

If you’re a place in a country, and culture is completely foreign to you, you’re not just going to go and embrace everything around you, you’re going to be reticent, you’re going to be hesitant. So the question becomes, how can I invite you into this new culture, so to speak, in a way that you can embrace and let down your guard, and begin in wanting to explore yourself? I think in many respects the analogy here being storytelling does that for you, it enables you that vehicle to enter that world and explore.

[00:04:09] Bonni: At what point did you notice that this invitation was necessary? Did that come from your own life and your own experiences where you were or were not invited into this new academic world? Or did it come more when you started teaching and you saw some of this resistance? Or is it C, all of the above or none of the above? [laughs] Don’t you love when an interview gives you a dichotomous choice? [laughs]

[00:04:35] Josef: I definitely say all of the above. I think it manifests slightly differently in your hardcore academic presentation, and in the teaching, really large, like classroom teaching. I think the way I distinguish it is that, in the context of a classroom, what my goal is, is to have you as a student really have a stake in your own learning. The question from me becomes, how can I have you engage with the material? What that means is really the goal for me is to say, we’re going to engage the material, not as here’s a set of information that you’re digesting, but instead, it’s to the extent possible, we’re going to reflect the discourse in any academic setting.

Whatever the idea is, I don’t care. From gravity to whatever that idea is, it’s a discourse where people are going back and forth, presenting arguments with evidence and so on and so forth. The challenge for me is to say, “Okay, how can I have you have a seat or on a table where this course happening, so that you feel like you are contributing?” It’s ideas that you’re dissecting and deconstructing, it’s ideas that you are building back up and you’re being challenged by your peers, by whoever in trying to identify gaps in your thinking or new ways of thinking.

It’s that buy-in that to me is fundamental to a classroom. I engage it in a way where it’s really, you are an autonomous scholar, so to speak and what you’re doing is you’re engaging with these ideas. In the presentation, it’s slightly different in that I only have a short amount of time. In that respect, it’s going to be less interactive, it’s going to be more passive where the audience is receiving information, but in that context, still, the question becomes, how can I have you buy into what it is that I’m doing? That’s how it sees a difference between the two, but they obviously are parallels.

[00:06:41] Bonni: You stress so much in your work about the importance of thinking about our audience. Would you talk about your audience as it relates to the students that you work with? Who are they?

[00:06:51] Josef: It’s mostly undergrads that I’m working with. At this point, I’d say I’ve had the privilege to teach quite a diverse set of students. For me, when I say audience, I’m trying to create a certain environment, intellectual environment in my classroom. For me to achieve that, I have to think about my audience, I have to think about my classroom, my students because depending on what context they’re coming from, it’s going to change how they’re going to get to the place where I want them to go so to speak.

That to me, just right away, I meet with students, if I draw on certain analogies, if I’m meeting with you one on one, immediately, so for instance, if it was you, my first thing would be like, “Okay, this is someone who’s well versed and deeply steeped in the education pedagogy world.” Whatever that I’m talking about, whatever concept that maybe, I’m going to try to draw on analogies and examples that, essentially borrows from that world in which are in, so that you can now grasp, whatever that idea is how it manifests in your context. That in essence, to me is what it means to think about my audience at all times, like, what would it take for you, in your context to get to wherever it is that we’re trying to go.

[00:08:07] Bonni: When I think back to my decades of teaching, one of the things that’s very sophisticated, so hopefully you can follow me ha-ha-ha. One of the things I really had to do is just get over myself because I think about that I used to take myself so seriously. I used to really think of my classes as way more important to my student’s lives than they actually were. Once I could get over that, because you talk a little bit about the ideal audience versus the audience that we actually are meeting.

For many of us, if we were always good students, which I was not always so I have that to draw from, but if those academics that I know, straight A’s all the way through all of their school experiences and always passionate about their discipline, can hardly remember a time when they weren’t tinkering with whatever their discipline is, then it’s hard not to project that onto this group of people thinking that they would see things the same way.

Well, of course, you’d be just as interested in calculus as I always was, or, today I’ve forgotten, I’ve long since forgotten that I wasn’t interested. You know what I mean? Tell us a little bit about how you contrast the ideal audience with, in reality, what might very well be in front of you in a classroom?

[00:09:18] Josef: This specific point that you’re making, I was again, stressing that in the presentation workshop, even though you’re right, it does apply to the classroom, but let me just make this two distinctions because I think there’s something of value there to make the distinction. In the presentation part, really, it’s, as you’re saying, the assumption being that, I’m going to explain to you, the keyword being “explain to you what I’m doing.” The problem with explaining implies or assumes, it presupposes that your audience already understands the problem, understands the value of the problem, and seeks a resolution to the problem. This is extremely problematic because that is not the case. You cannot assume that about your audience.

If that ever would be a case, that’s like what I call an ideal audience, when you do have an audience that has these characteristics, you won in a sense that an ideal audience is an audience that is going to be hungry for whatever it is that you have to offer. It can be incoherent. It can be babbling. It does not matter. That audience is just hungry for whatever it is that you have to offer them, but the problem is that it’s very rare that we can assume that audience to exist or presuppose that already exists.

We have to actually create that audience. You have to literally transform an audience. In fact, that’s what I say storytellers do and you can tell that storytellers do it because of the body language. You go from slouching and then suddenly when you have good stories, the other one happen. Immediately, you start leaning forward. Literally, your body begins transforming. What I’m saying in that case, what the storyteller has done is literally transformed you from a passive or deficient audience to an ideal audience.

Now, you’re hungry. Now, you’re looking to what’s next what’s happening, but what about this? What about that? Immediately starting to, not just enter the world, but begin exploring it on your own. You begin identifying avenues that no one has explored yet. I tried to predict project ahead. What’s going on? In that same way, I think in the classroom, when I say I need my students to sit on that table of the discourse.

Really, it’s the same ideas to say, when you’re sitting around that table, what you are doing is you’re beginning understanding or appreciating, what does it say here, what is the problem, why you should care about it, why this new piece of information may potentially transform your understanding of it. Now, suddenly it’s like, Oh man, this is incredible. What do you mean by this or what do you mean all kid is completely makes me rethink something?

In that respect, an ideal audience in the classroom is really that saying, I have students who now are not just taking in the information, but actively dissecting it, actively playing around with certain ideas, exploring different ideas and asking questions. What if this would happen? What if that would happen? Once you start getting people on that level, now, you have the ideal audience. Now, they’re active. Now, they’re ready to really take ownership of their own learning.

[00:12:21] Bonni: You mentioned about understanding other people’s cultures and this has been really important for me in my teaching. I know I still have so much room to grow. Could you share about how you do that? Well, also simultaneously being careful not to place labels on people that don’t belong on. I suspect we both would have lots of examples where people make assumptions about us just because of where we’re from or whatever.

I both think it’s so critical that we understand and continue to grow our understandings of different religions, different ethnicities, different communities or places where people live, and the languages. It’s so critical yet also leaving this space for every person that we’re meeting is unique. Do you think about trying to simultaneously do both of those things as a storyteller?

[00:13:10] Josef: I think to me what it is it’s, I guess the best way I can explain this in a one-to-one conversation. Here, what’ll happen is, the more similar we are or the more comfortable I feel, then I’ll improvise and with the assumption that I’m going to be correct in whatever analogy that I’m using. The more distant I feel between me and your cultural background, the bridge that divide and not fall into the problem that you just highlighted create stereotypes.

What I’ll do ask is, okay, what is it that we’re talking about? Where is it that I want us to go? Then I might ask you, I’m just coming up with it, let’s say, Oh, tell me, where you’re from, what food do you eat in the morning? Now, I’m allowing them to give me something of your context. As you’re describing it, I’m asking myself, okay, how can I now utilize and bring in this example that you’re giving me and then have us have sort of a common framework to explore this idea that I want us to explore.

[00:14:19] Bonni: You just hit on for me, what has been really transformative for me, it is context. It’s recognizing that. For example, I work with many students who are Latin X. This is just an example of something I have failed at and I’m much better at today, but knowing that the way that many of those families will think about and treat funerals is very different from how I grew up. I’m not going to assume that as you said, if someone says, Oh, grandma died or whatever, I’m not just going to assume that every single thing that my brain has been filled with about that particular culture is going to be true, but I’m going to recognize that in that given context, it’s possible, we would have vast differences.

Just recognizing those various contexts across a lot of different aspects of one’s learning, and as you said, it starts with a question, it doesn’t start with, meet me, deciding to place those labels. I think also for me, maybe recognizing that either that the differences are there and being able to name them when they happen. That doesn’t mean that it’s okay, but we can continually be working to get better. I really like that you hit on the idea of context.

The next place that I know you want to take us a sheer focus on destination, as we’re thinking about storytelling in our classes, whether we’re making videos, giving lectures, whatever, talk a little bit about what you think about for this destination.

[00:15:51] Josef: In many respects, I guess for me, destination in the classroom, it’s how students are thinking about the material or any engagement with whatever discourse it may be. That’s at the highest level, I guess, is my destination, is your ability to think analytically, think deeply, have a certain discipline to your thinking, willingness to be challenged, but also challenge others in a constructive way.

That’s the highest level of what’s my destination of my classroom. Then from there, it trickles down to how it manifests in, let’s say why emphasize writing in my class or analytic writing. It’s not because I want you to be the best writer in the world. No, it’s because that’s a medium through which you get to hone, expressing new ideas in a very structured way. It’s also a medium where you get to then get feedback on what your thinking is.

That’s why I value that medium. It trickles down to the way we engage in class where it’s primarily small group discussions that we’re doing, but also structured where I asked students to have the materials in front of them expect that they have highlighted the material, have read the material. When they engage in the questions that I pose them to with the text, that they do so by referencing where they are in the text.

It would be whatever page so-and-so author says, this, this and that. Why am I doing this? Again, it’s about the ability to be disciplined in your thinking, express your ideas, but it’d be disciplined in a way that you’re able to say, here’s where it’s coming from. Here are the assumptions that I’m making. Here’s my idea, so that people can more effectively engage with you. In that respect, that’s the big level, what’s my destination when I teach.

Of course, when it comes to the actual substance that I teach, then that, again, I have to ask myself, what is it that I want to accomplish. By the time we’re done with this section of my class, where is it that I want you to be? Oftentimes, it’s not like I have like a set of bullet points that, you know, should be able to practice, so on, so on, so on. Should be able to articulate, it might just be almost like a feeling. It’s almost like, for instance, I teach a very broad class introduction to Africa and the first third of the class, it’s all about pre-colonial Africa.

We’re exploring from the earliest human evolution to just overall the dynamism of the continent, in trade that emerged … Now, you asked me at the end of that first third of the class, what’s the destination at its most simplest? What I want my students to come out of saying is, Oh wow, no, the continent of Africa is incredibly dynamic continent and has always been that way since human inception. That’s it. I’d like, if I can have you come out with that sense, then we have done a great job, so I can keep the destination very simple at times.

[00:18:59] Bonni: What I appreciate about what you just shared is that the tendency for so many of us would be to think that we had to cover every country within the continent and date ranges and that kind of thing. Then the destination really gets lost, because you’re really trying to take me to so many different places. You’ve never hooked me as your audience. Truth be told, if I were to take your class on Africa, I would walk in feeling like, oh, I really missed a lot of this in education.

I would walk in feeling like I didn’t belong there, that I wasn’t smart enough or I didn’t have enough coming in. I might have feelings of insecurity. Then if you try to take me to all those different destinations, at some point, I’m going to go, okay, I can’t do this anymore. It’s this thing from a long time ago, Harvard research about challenging people it has to do with motivation. It’s more in the leadership realm, but the same thing applies to learning as far as I’m concerned. Yes, challenge me, but if you are challenging me to such a great degree that I never think I can join you at your destination, at some point, my motivation just goes all the way down to the bottom and that might fall. Two things, I might just fail your class or I may just try to get by the absolute bare minimum that I could. Then I can’t really join you in this wonderful aim that you’ve described here, of recognizing that– then I don’t have to feel left behind.

What you just said about this class, I go, “Wow, I already knew that, but it makes me feel better that you just said that because it’s like it is really dynamic.” We can’t treat it in a universal way, but we do so much in the news and discourse, et cetera. Then I’m like, “Wow, I really would like to learn more about that.” You’ve given me that sense of feeling I could join you in that feeling, and then I’m ready for this path, which I know is the next thing you’re going to share. Once we’ve got our destination locked in then the path, which you talked about, the path that you try to help us take to get to that destination. If you want to use the same class example, that would be great.

[00:21:05] Josef: Yes. For instance, given that destination, one thi’ng I do, for instance in classes, there’s this beautiful map of the linguistic breakdown across the continent and just you see the map and its incredible. You really get to see in a bird’s eye view, the sheer diversity on that continent. One of the things that we, for instance, do in class, like one of the activities is where I would ask them, what is an average, I can say a day, not just commute, but let’s say you’re trying to go somewhere, whatever it may be an event of some kind, right?

How many miles would you travel? It will be whatever it maybe let’s say 30 or 60 miles at most. Okay, so we take the Google Map and then stretch it 60 miles so we get a sense of how long that is. Then I say, okay now go into this map of the linguistic breakdowns you have. Pick whatever place like three countries, place that what essentially is like a ruler, anywhere you want. Now, what I want you to do is I want you to count the number of languages that you will encounter on your journey.

Immediately, students, it’s amazing because now they get to see, this thing that I would do on just a regular day is like, I’ll try 60 miles, there’s nothing or even 100 miles, but then really getting to appreciate. It’s like, “Oh, wait a minute, if I was to be in, place X, I would have encountered four or five different languages on my two to three-hour drive and that’s many ways like mind-blowing.

That’s just on that little stretch that you chose. You could have taken that ruler and placed it anywhere else on the continent, and similarly encountered, many different languages. That just goes to show just the basic point of, for you to come to that discover yourself of, “Wow, there are tons of languages there, tons of difference, tons of diversity.” I can see it with a measure that makes sense to me, a two, three-hour drive. That’s one little bit to get you to that destination of, “Oh, this place is dynamic. It’s diverse. It’s rich.”

[00:23:14] Bonni: You have just shared something that is a struggle for so many who teach. Most people would have maybe gotten to your destination in terms of thinking through the learning outcomes as an example, “I know where we want to go, I know my audience, but this weighing more heavily of where I want to go and where literally, I want to go is going to make me have more of a tendency to tell them how many languages they would encounter.” You brought me as your student into your journey with you by asking me where I live, what’s the average commute.

I happen to know the average commute in the United States of America because I have a podcast and they tell us, which this is completely not the case for pandemic times, but in non-pandemic times, if you keep your podcast, it’s a general rule. If you keep it within the average commute time, you’ll be more likely to keep listeners. Now, there are lots of podcasts today that break that rule that still have a lot of listeners, but that’s just one thing that I’m thinking about.

If you asked, what’s your commute? Are you a commuter? Even for the school, we have, lots of people that teach in very urban areas, and some of them take public transportation. Some of my students take, oh, gosh, some of the long commutes, like two hours to get to school. That would be something that, if you brought that up in the class, you’re going to have a lot of different answers, a lot of different like, now I can take it from my perspective.

Presumably, in most parts of the United States, you wouldn’t cross too many languages as the primary language. It would be more of a perhaps a small subset of a place but not like large stretches and then to put ourselves in that place of what that would be like. Is this a literal map that’s hanging on a wall or is this something digital?

[00:25:08] Josef: It’s something digital.

[00:25:09] Bonni: Okay. Even nice as you think about your own journey to teaching more online, you’ll be able to take this one with you for sure.

[00:25:17] Josef: Yes, yes. In class so far, what I’ve done is– Well, they would just on a laptop would go online and get on the map and play around with it. One thing that I was going to add is the choice between– I could have just told you, there are many languages. I could have just said that to you. For all intent and purposes, in terms of the quantity of the information is the same, but there’s a profound difference between me telling you and you coming to that discovery, so to speak, yourself, because when you’re doing this exercise, and I say to you think about your commute, you’re not just thinking about your commute, you also are thinking about the presumptions.

As you were saying, in your context, it’s like, oh, when I think of the US, I encounter mostly one language, maybe some of it, but for the most part, it’s just one. That’s your starting point. If suddenly you’re doing this exercise, you’re coming across four, or five, maybe even six languages, that is profoundly different. That is a great difference. A distance between your experience and what that experience would have been in this different context. There’s this learning happening here that is profoundly different from me telling you that same information that you would eventually get but in a very different way.

[00:26:36] Bonni: The thing that I know you already know, but I want to emphasize this to people listening, not only do I have the information– We’re in the same place in the sense of if you would have just told me, by the way, if you would have just told me I probably wouldn’t remember as well as because you asked me to recall information about my own life that’s relevant to me, and then you’ve applied this. We’re still either destination path. We’re still at the same place as far as the information that we currently have.

However, you’ve got me hooked. I am not even just saying this hypothetically. Josef, I actually feel really anxious. I want to ask all these questions. Now, I want to go, well, logistically, how does that work? Do they learn enough of that language to be able to correspond? Or is that signage? Is it currency? Easier transactions? You have me now. [laughs]

[00:27:27] Josef: This is exactly what I’m saying. What you’re beginning to point to me that without me having said anything about this– I’m a political scientist, but you already are moving very deep into the question of statecraft. How do you construct the state, a bureaucracy, and a bureaucratic infrastructure where you have such diverse languages? In fact, if you look historically, for instance, France, was much more diverse in its linguistic with language diversity, and it was because of the state making agenda, that French was standardized in the way that it is. What you already are touching on a very profound issues about human development in general, and that’s all without me having said anything about that.

[00:28:15] Bonni: It’s also without you having assumed anything about my culture other than that, there’s a context here that you know will be likely different for people. You’ll have a lot of different commute times in that class, a lot of different methods of transportation, but without assuming, “Oh, Bonni, I bet you drive here in a car.” Guess what make and model that car is, et cetera, et cetera. You’ve really done that.

Let’s do one more of these just to give another example. If you could take the same class, but a different topic or whatever comes to your mind, talk a bit about that destination and how you think about it for a given learning outcome, topic, idea, feeling and then that path.

[00:28:57] Josef: For instance, I teach a class on authoritarian politics. One thing that I do, for instance, is in the literature, one of the things that you’ll see emphasized is the context in which authoritarian politics occurs. Well, if this is within the regime, not the interaction between the regime and the population, but within the regime, and they are really stresses that it’s a context of instability knows, in a sense that you don’t know whether whoever it is that you’re interacting with, that whether their preferences are actually being revealed or if they have a different agenda, whether they are to stab you in the back, think Machiavelli, but within the regime itself.

That’s fundamental to the literature in the way you were to approach to internal politics for authoritarian regimes. The question now being, well, how do I get my students to get that sense of what it would be like to be in that context? That establishes the premise for much of the literature and assumptions for which you’re working on. I have a game that I play, where I simulate this treachery, so to speak, where you have the ruler side and you have the conspirator side. In each round, students, you don’t know who’s on what side. The point of the game at the end is I’m going to tally up the numbers that have ended up on each of the two sides, and whichever has more wins. You can win $20 or something. There’s an incentive for you to win. The process of the game itself is that in each round, everyone in costume gets to go around and you get to recruit each other. You do that however, just tapping on your shoulder.

You can talk about whatever and then you tap on your shoulder. If I say, yes, I’m agreeing without even knowing what side you’re on, I’m agreeing to be on your side. If I agree, you show me your flashcard. I hand out these flashcards, rule on one side, spears on the other. You flash a card then I get to see. If I’m on the ruler side and you’re on the conspiracy, now I go over to the conspiracy side. This is recruiting happening in each round, but no one besides you two get to observe who’s on what side. By the way, if I say, “No, I don’t want to join you,” I never get to see what side you’re on. There’s this great sense of uncertainty.

On top of that, you have the designated ruler and a set of ministers. Ministers, in this case, account more than your regular person in the classroom. The ruler, their place was two-fold. Number one, while this recruiting happens, the ruler has their back to the classroom. In effect, they don’t see what’s going on. That mimics what actually happens in real life, rulers don’t really go into what’s going on in the organization. What they can do is, they can promote and demote these ministers. After each round, the ministers are part of that fray of recruiting. After each round, the ministers line up and the ruler gets to decide who to demote and then who among the crowd to promote.

One of the things they’ll allow you to do is to ask the crowd. “Do you think this minister is on my side or not?” Of course, you’re going to have some people who are going to raise, “Hello, this person with the conspiracies, with the conspiracies and so forth.” Now, the problem is this. If you’re under conspiracy and you want to win, and you know that one of the ministers is on the ruler side, what are you going to do? You’re going to denounce that minister has been part of the conspiracy, precisely in order to get rid of that minister.

Now, you have ministers who, in the beginning of the game, said, “Oh, I’m going to be this loyal subject. I’m not even going to participate in the recruiting process. I’m just going to stay out. I’m going to show the ruler I’m loyal.” All of a sudden, someone is pointing their finger at you and saying that, “You on the other side, because you’re part of the conspiracy.” Now, the ruler is like, “Well, are you?” and you’re like, “No, I’m not. I’m a loyal subject. The ruler is like, “How do I know that? How can I trust you?” Before you know it without you even wanting to participate, you now are in the midst of this blame game and conspiracies that are going on.

At the end of the game, students really get a feel for the sense of uncertainty, decision making under uncertainty and the potential for it to really shape the actions within the regime, why subordinates do what they do. That’s crucial. Again, I have a certain destination and this game serves me in that …

[00:33:27] Bonni: Your game is a role immersion game, and it’s reminding me a little bit of way back on episode 21. People listening would have had to be listening back in 2014, [chuckles] or you already know of this on your own. There is a role immersion game that is called Reacting to the Past. I don’t know if you’ve heard of it, Josef. I was able to talk with Mark Carnes from Barnard College, and I’d encourage people to go back and check out that episode if you’re interested.

Reacting to the past started out as one game similar to what you’re describing here, but actually then expanded to where authors and scholars can now write their own games in given contexts throughout history and throughout the world. It really is a nice way to enter in. You’re also reminding me a little bit, I used to play a leadership game called the Power Game. It was similar in the sense of that there was actually money involved, actual real money that somebody could earn. [chuckles]

It had to do with, you’d give out slips of paper of your either top, middle or bottom. You set up a few frameworks like, top, you’re going to make the decision of what to do with the money and then separate people a little bit. You go down there, and you can only talk to them if they get the permission or whatever. I don’t remember all of it because it was such a long time ago.

What I do vividly remember is it’s a game [laughs] very small stakes, but the degree to which people would buy into these labels that they were assigned, and look, get so incredibly angry. I never did it like a game to try to mess with people’s minds. The hope is, of course, that you would learn some valuable lessons around leadership and to question systems and structures that are set up to quiet people’s voices. Who said that they had to be separate? [chuckles] We never said that. Unfortunately, some people would miss the lessons because they did become so defensive. Of course, I didn’t ever get to talk to them years later and see [laughs] if they really thought that.

Most people really did enjoy the experience and get a lot out of it. These are the games and you mentioned this, where if I do this simulation with you, then every piece of literature that comes in front of me, I can use this as a lens. Not only do I know vocabulary, but I have experience to use as a lens as I read and engage.

[00:35:49] Josef: Precisely. In fact, that’s exactly– and I actually do that explicitly. Remember when we played the game when this, this has happened? The one thing I was going to add with the game is that actually, there’s a debriefing session. After the game, you go into small groups as a set of questions. In fact, there’s a quote that I use and something to the effect of, the ones you need to worry about are not the ones that oppose you. The ones you need to be worried about those who oppose you, but don’t state it publicly. It’s all about that uncertainty, who is and is not with you.

I’m not sure that … think about what you just went through in this game. They get a chance to essentially debrief, think about, be reflective about the game. They really drawn, tease out these underlying processes that we are essentially simulating in this game.

[00:36:43] Bonni: People who want to learn more about the practice of debriefing, Episode 139, which I’ll put a link to in the show notes is effective debriefing approaches with Stephanie Lancaster. She speaks about it in the context of nursing simulations that they do, but it definitely would apply to what Joseph just shared and to what I shared about the power game as well.

Before we get to the recommendations segment, I just wanted to take a moment to thank today’s sponsor, and that is TextExpander. TextExpander has been the longest running sponsor of Teaching in Higher Ed yet every single time, I get excited to share about them with you. I know many of you have started using TextExpander because of the show, and I want to thank you. I know you’re also already thinking yourself [laughs] because it does save you so much time and that’s what you’re sharing with me.

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This is the point in the show where we each get to share our recommendations. I wanted to share mine and that is [chuckles], I am making a series of videos for my classes so that I can have more of a HyFlex and flexible in general approach. I am a big fan of not thinking we have to use super fancy equipment. We don’t need fancy video cameras. I do think Sound is a nice thing to think about and not be recording with lots of wind. [chuckles]

You can really get by with a smartphone. I like a new GorillaPod thing that I purchased. It’s like a tripod, but the legs of it are completely flexible. You could actually attach it to a tree, a pole or something like that. I heard about this from Mike Wesch. Mike Wesch really developed some amazing videos for his Anthropology 101 class. I’ll put a link to that in the show notes too in case you haven’t seen his videos.

I’m having so much fun with it. So I had to actually buy two things. One would be the little mount for the cell phone itself, so that it can hook on to my iPhone. It’s got little stretchy thing, it’ll grab on to the iPhone, and then also the part that attaches to the legs. It could attach to a camera or other kinds of devices, but I have it attached to my smartphone. That’s my recommendation is to not think your videos have to be perfect, in fact, quite the opposite.

The authenticity that comes through if we’re just literally talking, to think about yourself just talking to, instead of all of your students, I recommend thinking of yourself talking to a student. Really looking in that camera and being able to even picture that student who is representative in your mind of someone just like the audience that Josef spoke about earlier, who is, maybe not quite curious. You’re almost trying to persuade them to become more curious and thinking about, “I’m talking to one person, I’m looking at that camera, I’m simulating eye contact as best I can, and trying to develop that kind of curiosity.” That’s my recommendation for today. I’m going to pass it over to you Josef for yours.

[00:40:58] Josef: Mine is in line with, I guess in some ways what inspired the video series that I developed on the analytic paper. If you haven’t got a chance, his name is Grant Sanderson, and he has this YouTube channel called 3Blue1Brown. Two series in particular, the essence of linear algebra and the essence of calculus, highly recommend these videos, even if you have no interest in mathematics.

It’s so beautifully done, really has a unique grasp of getting to the intuition, and really tease out the beauty of the ideas involved in these mathematical disciplines that he covers. Then recently, I had a chance to watch his talk that he gave, he gave a TED talk in Berkeley, highly recommend that as well. You should be able to find it on his channel. Really an interesting take on why mathematics and his videos are as popular as they are.

[00:41:53] Bonni: Well, and people should go look at your YouTube channel as well to get inspiration on our storytelling. I found them riveting and I candidly wouldn’t normally watch mathematics videos, on the topics that you shared. I’m ready to take your class on Africa, I’m ready to take the [laughs] class that you mentioned, and I subscribe to your YouTube and really get a lot out of it.

I find them to be very interesting even as someone who doesn’t normally watch that kind of topic, but they’re really, really, really interesting and they also help me be a better teacher because, at the same time as I’m learning about the topics that you’re presenting, I’m also learning how to hook people better and I’m deconstructing what you’re doing and thinking about your destination and the path that you’re taking us on. You really are just so incredible at being able to do that. I’m so inspired by you and grateful for this opportunity to talk to you today.

[00:42:46] Josef: Thank you. Appreciate it.

[music]

[00:42:51] Bonni: What a pleasure it was today to have this conversation with Josef Woldense. I am so inspired by him, as I said as we conclude the episode and I’m just thankful that you can head on over to the show notes and so can I, at teachinginhighered.com/321, 321 and then get the links to his video series which you’ll see what I’m talking about when you get there, as to how inspiring they can be, not just for the content that they convey, but also for the behind the scenes look at how he hooks us and persuades us to keep on watching and get curious about that part of the research process.

Thanks to all of you for listening and to being a part of the teaching in higher ed community. I’ve had so much fun lately, people on Twitter posting pictures of them reading my book and it brings me so much joy and I’m just thrilled to be able to continue to have these conversations with you listening. Thanks so much.

[00:43:45] [END OF AUDIO]

The transcript of this episode has been made possible through a financial contribution by the Association of College and University Educators (ACUE). ACUE is on a mission to ensure student success through quality instruction. In partnership with institutions of higher education nationwide, ACUE supports and credentials faculty members in the use of evidence-based teaching practices that drive student engagement, retention, and learning. 

Teaching in Higher Ed transcripts are created using a combination of an automated transcription service and human beings. This text likely will not represent the precise, word-for-word conversation that was had. The accuracy of the transcripts will vary. The authoritative record of the Teaching in Higher Ed podcasts is contained in the audio file.