Bonni: [00:00:00] Today on episode number 157 of that Teaching in Higher Ed podcast Phil Newton talks about promoting academic integrity.

Production Credit: [00:00:10] Produced by innovate learning, maximizing human potential.

Bonni: [00:00:20] Welcome to this episode of Teaching in Higher Ed. I’m Bonni Stachowiak and this is the space where we explore the art and science of being more effective at facilitating learning. We also share ways to improve our personal productivity so we can have more peace in our lives and be even more present for our students.

Bonni: [00:00:48] I’m really interested in today’s conversation about promoting academic integrity. It’s such important work that all of us need to embark on. And today’s guest is just perfect for that conversation. Phil Newton is the Director of Learning and Teaching at the Swansea University Medical School in the United Kingdom. He teaches neuroscience and educational theory to students in the school and was the 2015 British Medical Association Wales Swansea Teacher of the Year.

Bonni: [00:01:16] He is the program director for the research and health professions education professional doctorate program. His research interest is in the area of evidence based education particularly academic integrity. His recent research has focused on strategies to prevent contract cheating where students pay someone else to complete their assignments. His research suggests that this alarming problem might be prevented through stakeholder education particularly about effective assessment design and by changes to the laws surrounding the provision of custom written assignments. Phil, welcome to Teaching in Higher Ed.

Phil: [00:01:57] It’s good to be here thank you for having me on it.

Bonni: [00:01:59] I was so thrilled that you reached out to me and suggested this as a topic because as you know we have only skimmed the surface in past episodes and I’m just thrilled to get to learn more about your research and your perspective on this. Could you tell us how did you first start getting interested in researching about academic integrity.

Phil: [00:02:20] Sure. It really came about because I was asked to take on an administrative role as many faculty are in the one they asked me to do was in academic integrity I was asked to be the responsible person in our medical school for looking into alleged cases of plagiarism and other forms of misconduct. And I guess like a lot of faculty I just said OK I’ll you know I’ll take on in an administer minister role. You know if it lets me do my teaching or my research.

Phil: [00:02:49] And so I just did the things that were asked of me but I was just amazed by the things that I saw or I think that changed a lot since I was a student and I was astounded by what was possible and some of the things that some students got up to and I just I found it fascinating and I’ll admit a little bit horrifying on occasion and ripe for research. It seemed though there was a lot that could be done. And and like many things in our careers once you lift the lid it’s very difficult to put it back down again.

Bonni: [00:03:21] I know for me when I first started teaching in higher ed and discovering incidences of cheating I took it very personally very personally. They were cheating on me. This was somehow very wrapped around my own sense of self in my own new role in teaching. How common is it that we take these things so personally and what are some of the dangers.

Phil: [00:03:46] In my experience it’s very common. I mean when I had to do that role to investigate allegations that the students had cheated it was often the most challenging part of any investigation was was dealing with the faculty whose class students are treated in people feel somehow responsible that they have contributed to this somehow and all indignant of the students could possibly do this to them and to their peers and it’s a really tricky part of getting any sort of process right to I think is to acknowledge the fact that it’s difficult for everyone including the faculty.

Bonni: [00:04:29] If you were to go back to talk to me 14 years ago and give me some advice on maybe a different lens to use instead of this is somehow all wrapped around me and my own teaching and them cheating on me. What’s a better lens for us to have as faculty as we consider these issues of academic integrity.

Phil: [00:04:50] I think one thing that is a message we stress a lot when we’re talking about this is that unfortunately this is a part of human nature in many ways. I mean people have cheated forever in all forms of all walks of life and there’s nothing to say that if people cheat in the tax returns or in the in the driving test or in any other form of behavior that they’re not going to cheat in higher ed so it’s not about us it’s not so much about what we’ve done it’s just it’s something that happens.

Phil: [00:05:29] And one of the things I’m really keen to stress and one of the things I think we can do to make this dealing with these issues a little easier for everyone is to just to look at in the eye and say you know to students some students are cheating not many of them. But it does have. And the sooner I think we we we squared up to that and we call it for what it is. And I think the easy way it is sometimes for us to deal with it.

Bonni: [00:05:56] We’ve been using the word cheating of course and there’s such a broad spectrum of what we might put under that umbrella. But one of the other things that has been helpful to me was all the way back from when James Lang came on Episode 19 to talk about his book called Cheating Lessons and he spoke about that when he does workshops with faculty OK raise your hand if you broke the law on the way to work today.

Phil: [00:06:21] Yes.

Bonni: [00:06:22] They catch on pretty quick of course because a lot of us speed on the way to work.

Phil: [00:06:27] Yes. As someone I’ve worked with in the past Tricia Bertram Gallant from UCSD and she when she runs workshops she often does that as well and it’s very powerful. You know this sort of thing happens all the time. And recognizing some of the things that motivate or or will prompt people to misbehave in other walks of life is also useful for helping us understand why some students may cheat or commit other forms of misconduct you know they’re under pressure. It’s that the opportunities are there for them to do it.

Phil: [00:07:01] And when you create an environment where things are possible and there’s a strong motivation then it’s going to happen and a lot of people have looked at Academic Integrity plagiarism and misconduct through the lens of criminology and try to understand it from that perspective and many of the things that criminology tells us about these sorts of behaviors in general also apply to cheating I think. I mean there when people do it they tend to do it frequently and they’re prompted to do so by lots of strong external pressures and occasionally a system that makes it easy for them to do it and to get away with it.

Bonni: [00:07:38] When I think about this whole continuum of academic integrity or a lack there of it I tend to ponder a bit on what parts of it are students actually realize is cheating and what parts of it is just a lack of education and that I as a privileged person who’s got opportunities to receive a doctorate degree are going to be in a different space than many students that I work with who were first entering college and are some of our students that didn’t get a very good education. Where is that helpful and then to what extent my maybe enabling the behavior because I think oh well maybe they didn’t know and then we can just string that along for too long.

Phil: [00:08:22] I think there is something to that last statement in it. It is it could be an easy way out for us to say well OK they just didn’t know what they were doing. Having said that I think there is a lot to that and that’s another thing that I found was a revelation to me when I first had to investigate these allegations that some students have been up to no good. A lot of students genuinely didn’t really understand what was expected of them.

Phil: [00:08:49] The conventions around academic writing giving credit for the work of others especially now that so much information is so readily available. It is important to recognize that I think especially in students who are new and you wish to higher education and particularly if students are coming from an environment where their assessments have all been conducted using traditional examinations for many students academic writing is an entirely new concept and certainly the idea of being assessed through their academic writing is completely new to them. And it’s a skill that they have to learn and we have to help them learn.

Bonni: [00:09:27] When we look at this continuum of possible ways of cheating where does contract cheating fall.

Phil: [00:09:37] In general I think we we tend to put contract cheating towards the extreme end of the continuum. I suppose it is possibly worth explaining a little bit about what contract cheating is.

Bonni: [00:09:50] Yes please.

Phil: [00:09:51] For for people who aren’t familiar with it it’s this basically the idea that students contract out their learning and some of the most common ways that this happens that people may be familiar with or through things like paper mills or custom essay writing web sites basically services that students can use where they can place an order for whatever assignment it is that’s been set for them and somebody will write it for them and they will pay some sort of fee or enter into some sort of contract for that service.

Phil: [00:10:25] And there are commercial services that exist solely to provide custom written assignments for other people and in general I think there’s a level of intent involved in that sort of behavior that puts it towards the extreme end of the spectrum.

Bonni: [00:10:42] I have heard that there are some cultures that maybe haven’t been made quite as aware of how unethical this is. Although it’s I’m saying this and I’m sort of trying to be careful of every word that comes out of my mouth. But I have to ask the question I mean is there anything to that or can we safely assume if somebody is doing this they understand that it is wrong and that it should not be done.

Phil: [00:11:07] I think in general when you see the sorts of specificity with which you can order a sort an assignment for some of these services it’s very difficult to conceive of a situation where people might think this is this is OK something that might counter that is still the way that these services advertised to students.

Phil: [00:11:29] They create an air of legitimacy in many cases saying that they’re a study aid service and they’re helping students who are struggling. And we can do this for you don’t worry we’re a legitimate company. But even so I think once you start entering the details of what grade you want somewhat referencing system you want from what source text you want to use and how soon you want it.

Phil: [00:11:54] And then all the rest of it it’s pretty clear that someone’s doing the work for you in terms of whether there are some cultures the way in which this might be considered more acceptable I think probably where that might come from or the answer to that is that in terms of the pressures that students are under to to complete their assignments and the factors that might prompt them to commit misconduct.

Phil: [00:12:20] One of the things that comes out from all sorts of research into academic misconduct is that students who are struggling or are finding work harder or more likely perhaps to do this sort of thing and they might students who are obviously trying to complete an assignment in a second language they’re going to find it harder on average than a student who’s studying in their native language.

Bonni: [00:12:45] One of the things that you stress is that this punitive approach that we can really fall victim to I certainly have in my career and I suspect that maybe all I’ll run into that temptation in the future again I hope not but is this idea of wanting to catch those cheats. Ok then I have to catch them how do I catch the people who were doing this contract cheating how do I catch the people who are intentionally plagiarizing or cheating in in-class exams. This catch you catch what you’re saying is not going to be the most helpful way for us to heal ourselves from this.

Phil: [00:13:20] Absolutely. And that’s another really important point that we try and stress whenever we talk about this is that if you’re in a situation where you are having to investigate an allegation that a student has committed some form of misconduct it’s lose lose for everybody concerned. I mean if a student has plagiarised or done something similar then and there are penalties involved there’s a lengthy investigation and sort of quasar judicial process that often goes on and it’s fairly miserable for everybody and for the end of that you discover that actually the student hasn’t plagiarised and there’s been some sort of honest mistake and it’s still very miserable for all concerned and it takes up a lot of time and causes a lot of anguish.

Phil: [00:14:08] And it’s also just not very effective particularly with contract cheating the the way that the services market themselves and the sort of key to the success if you can call it that is that it is very difficult to detect. They’re often bespoke custom written assignments. There are people who write them a very very skilled at getting around turnitin and the other originality detection services.

Phil: [00:14:37] And so it’s not an effective use of anyone’s time to go hunting around trying to find evidence that this assignment has been purchased from a web site or something it’s it’s not it’s not going to result in an improvement in your mental health to do so. I think the key to or a key to really dealing with this is to make academic integrity a core part of what we do as educators and a core part of how we educate educators around learning and teaching in higher ed.

Phil: [00:15:11] If it’s a fundamental part of the conversations we have with new teachers to say when you’re designing assessments so when you’re working with your students this is something that’s important. Then we can get to a place where we’re putting in preventative measures that make it less likely that these things will happen and they’re saving us all of the time and anguish with trying to investigate cases of supposed cheating.

Bonni: [00:15:36] What do you share some of those preventative measures that might help us.

Phil: [00:15:40] Yeah there’s there’s a lot that’s been proposed in the literature. I think it’s probably worth explaining a little bit about the broader concept of academic integrity in the U.S. you have the International Center for Academic Integrity and they’ve done a lot of work to promote the core values of academic integrity and it’s really just about promoting a positive approach to learning and teaching in higher ed.

Phil: [00:16:08] There are some very practical things you can do in terms of assessment design that I think are really important and will result in better assessments Anyway things like practical and a focus on practical face to face assessment. Short bursts of assessment rather than a big summative load right at the end of the semester. A lot of the things that you’ve talked about in previous podcasts with various guests who’ve come on and made recommendations for how to make assessment work well and work for learning and work for the students. If we if we do those things we also make assessment systems that are resilient and less susceptible to the challenges of some of these behaviors.

Bonni: [00:16:54] I had forgotten that that was one of the advantages to doing more assessments is that it helps that I mean it’s it’s intuitive that it would but I stress it so much just because it facilitates such better learning outcomes. But it’s nice to know that it can help us here too.

Phil: [00:17:09] And I think one of the things we found in this most recent study was that although there’s lots of good information in this being taught to educators about assessment design the idea that this will also help with academic integrity is not is not front and center and that is not communicated to academics so we say look you need to design an assessment that’s valid.

Phil: [00:17:33] And so part of being validate will be reliable and inclusive and all those things are part of ensuring that an assessment is valid is ensuring that a student can’t buy it online for $40 in three or four hours. And if we have that consideration the validity of an assessment being influenced very strongly by the resilience and integrity of an assessment then everybody benefits the assessments are better and it’s less likely that students can get somebody else to do the work for them.

Bonni: [00:18:06] I believe it was on the failure episode which was episode 100 where we all shared about our various failures that my husband my husband mentioned when what he considered one of his biggest teaching failures was around just scaring the jeebies out of his students with plagiarism it’s like where it got to be bad. Yes he stressed it but he stressed it so hard that they were just terrified to write.

Bonni: [00:18:30] And it didn’t create a very fertile fertile ground for learning. I do. I go back and forth of course I don’t want to scare my students at all but to what extent is it helpful to share with our students when things come up in the news where some prominent figure has just you know been found for having plagiarized persons of their birth or their dissertations. Are those the kinds of examples that are helpful to share or did they just create more of this culture of fear that doesn’t let us learn very well about how to write more effectively in academia.

Phil: [00:19:01] I think a lot of people will say they’ve had that experience where they want to be clear to students look make sure you’re doing the right thing because if you don’t do all these terrible things might happen and the color drains from their faces and you get more questions about have-I references correctly then you know about the actual learning that you’re hoping they’re doing in the assessment. And I think that also happens with staff too.

Phil: [00:19:29] I mean staff are intimidated many times about the thought of what happens if the students get something wrong is something we touched upon at the beginning and I come back to this idea that if we’ve got good assessment systems that are resilient that where it’s less likely that students can get into these sorts of difficulties then it takes away some of that pressure to get some of that pressure on the procedure that happens when something goes wrong.

Phil: [00:20:01] And if it’s integral to learning and teaching you if it’s a part of what we’re trying to do then it’s not something that we have to have a special lecture about and a special procedure about a special training session about the rules and regulations or at least that becomes less important.

Bonni: [00:20:19] It probably depends on the class of course too in terms of just what the learning objectives are for a given class. Sure. Yeah then we have to try to go do other classes work in terms of building those skills.

Phil: [00:20:30] Yes. And although I’m very keen to emphasize the benefits of practical and face to face and personalised assessment we don’t lose sight of the fact that learning sorites academically is a really important skill that students develop in higher education and it’s for some disciplines it’s there’s always going to be a big part of how they’re assessed and for good reason but I think we need to we need to just make sure it’s not the only way that we assessed or that we allow students to demonstrate to us the things that they’ve learned.

Bonni: [00:21:01] I don’t want to forget to ask you about the study that you just completed because we actually had a little bit of a delay between when you contacted me and when we got to have this conversation because you wanted it to have been published so share a little bit about the study and what your findings were.

Phil: [00:21:14] So the the study was was really just a way of trying to have a look at what we’re teaching academics in a higher education specifically UK higher education about academic integrity and the again I think it’s worth just being clear what it is. When we when we talk about what we’re talking about when we use the phrase academic integrity it’s it’s this positive proactive approach to promoting the ability of students to do the right thing and having transparency and an upfront acknowledgement of of what’s important is something that’s been around a long time. It’s something that organizations like the ICAI have been promoting and I just wanted to see was it part of the mainstream discourse in higher education particularly when we’re teaching academics how to teach.

Phil: [00:22:19] So in the UK we have most institutions run a postgraduate certificate for a new faculty to teach them how to teach in higher education. So I looked at those courses and specifically the textbooks that are recommended to academics who take those courses. And we just looked at what those textbooks have to say about academic integrity to see whether this positive proactive approach was was part of the message and unfortunately by and large the answer was No it isn’t.

Phil: [00:22:52] We did various things to get to to answering this question. A very simple thing we did was just to look in the index for topics that are covered. You know the words cheating and plagiarism and misconduct they came up quite a lot. The phrase academic integrity did not come up at all and in many of the textbooks had chapters dedicated to dealing with these issues and they had titles that included the words plagiarism and cheating and malpractise. None of them included the word academic integrity and overall conclusion was that this still is a subject that is separate to the mainstream language of higher education is something that academics are taught about separately to learning about general principles of learning and teaching.

Bonni: [00:23:45] So more of what I’m hearing you say you discovered was the reactive approach is once I have caught someone doing this then what do I do versus more of a proactive approach that would fall under Academic Integrity.

Phil: [00:23:59] Absolutely. And it’s only it’s very important to make sure that you do have clear procedures for dealing with things that go wrong and that those are clear to students and to staff and to all concerned and those descriptions of those how those things might work were present in in a lot of the books but you’re right this positive proactive approach to academic integrity rather than cheating and plagiarism it it just wasn’t there.

Bonni: [00:24:30] Let’s assume that I have only been teaching for a few years and I recognize in myself this temptation to stress the reactions versus something more proactive. What would be your advice to me for just how to get started. What what what small step could I take the next course that I teach that might have the biggest impact.

Phil: [00:24:53] I think one thing that would really help would be to think about the way that you’re going to assess the cause the ways that you’re going to let the students show that they have learned. Think about all of the good principles of assessment but do that through the lens of academic integrity. You know it with this thought that if a student what we’re trying to let students do in an assessment is show us and themselves what they’ve learned.

Phil: [00:25:27] We want to get feedback on where they need extra assistance and so on all of that requires good resilient assessment systems that have good integrity and if where we’re designing our assignment we’re thinking about okay we’ve taught them this particular topic. We want them to show that they have learned x y and Zed we want them to do that in a way that they can’t copy and paste it from the Internet and they can purchase it from a custom service.

Phil: [00:25:56] And if we get the assessments right then a lot of the other considerations will perhaps I’m being somewhat naive by this but a lot of the other issues will take care of themselves you know that big scary talk about referencing and plagiarism and what if things go wrong that becomes less of an issue because it’s less likely that they can go wrong.

Bonni: [00:26:18] To what extent then does this mean I need to have different assessments each time I teach this class.

Phil: [00:26:26] You mean a different method or a different title?

Bonni: [00:26:29] Well I was thinking about what. Sorry James Lang I can’t remember everything you taught me into Cheating Lessons. I was thinking about what I tried to take away from that was I did think he was having more advocating that we don’t just have the same paper same topic every semester that we do when we allow ourselves to have that exact same topic. Each semester we are opening up opportunities for plagiarism there from past students who have taken the class you know etc.

Phil: [00:26:58] Yeah I think I think that is important. It’s another one of these cases where if you make it easier for for for things to happen then they’re more likely to happen. So if students who started the class in previous years have written the exact same assignments then it’s obviously easier for students in the current class to get a copy of something that someone has done before.

Phil: [00:27:21] One thing I think it’s I don’t know if I’ve stressed this or already but we’re never going to stop this sort of thing happening and one of the things we’ve noticed with the contract cheating and one of the things we emphasize is you’re never going to completely eliminated anything you want anything any sort of assignment scientist who wants to buy. They can buy but there are circumstances that just make it harder for it to happen and I think changing the topic certainly is a way of helping with that.

Bonni: [00:27:49] I really appreciate that you said that and it reminds me a little bit of meant it might not sound related initially but that sometimes when we have students that were having a hard time reaching in our classes.

Bonni: [00:28:03] Dave and I have shared about this on the show before we can find ourselves teaching to the wrong people in the class you know the one who we’ve done everything we know how to do as far as trying to engage him or her and tried all these different approaches but we’re actually losing sight therefore when we stress it too much to try to treat to reach that one student when really we need to teach the whole class and there’s a whole bunch of other people there.

Bonni: [00:28:27] So I like that you’ve said this about if I were to try to eliminate it completely First of all I couldn’t. But second of all I wouldn’t have these good principals of assessment that you’ve just described to us so articulately.

Phil: [00:28:42] Yeah. And again this is a really good and important point you’ve made there it’s we don’t design assessments to prevent cheating. We don’t design assessments to catch cheats. We design assessments so that students can show that they have learned and that’s not to say we shouldn’t consider the resilience of the assessment but that’s not what assessment is for.

Phil: [00:29:04] And they’re always going to be the students that we can help the students who are going to go out there way too to find ways around to bypass the learning on the way to getting academic credit. And yes you’re right. We we accept this is going to happen in higher education as it does in all walks of life and focus on making things right for the the majority of students who are going to do this.

Bonni: [00:29:30] Before we go to the recommendations segment I want to make sure and ask you the broad question why did I not ask you about assessment that we should talk about before we.

Phil: [00:29:40] If there’s one key thing I think is it’s important for us to bear in mind one key message I’d like to get across is that the fundamental right needs to have integrity in our assessment systems in order to make sure that they’re valid.

Phil: [00:29:55] And that’s really the key thing that I’d like to see happen in discussions around academic integrity. For them to be part of what we teach academics about learning and teaching in higher ed and not something that happens as an adult or an adjunct toward a policy and procedure lecture that we have later on I also like just to give a mention to this big project that we’ve got going on in Australia where we’re we’ve conducted some enormous studies of students and faculty and their perceptions of academic integrity and cheating behaviors with it with a focus on some of these contract cheating behaviors.

Phil: [00:30:34] We’ve got a Web site Contract Cheating and Assessment Design. An Australian web site where we’ve got some of our preliminary findings and I think there’s this field move so quickly because technology is moving so quickly and we’ve shared some of our preliminary findings on there and they even though they are preliminary they have moved forward some of our thinking about these behaviors and what to do about them even though compared to some studies in the last five or 10 years.

Bonni: [00:31:02] I’m excited about this resource for two reasons. First of all it’s always fun to have places to send people to get more information if they want to explore it more. But secondly that you chose a country that I know that a few so I can. What is the domain name for Australia. So I don’t have to search that you saved me some Google.

Phil: [00:31:23] It’s .edu.au Yes. I will send you the link.

Bonni: [00:31:28] OK.

Phil: [00:31:29] We have we have video presentations on there from our we had a symposium a couple of weeks ago.

Bonni: [00:31:33] Oh wonderful.

Phil: [00:31:33] When we talked about some of our preliminary findings and a couple few of us from the team will be going around various conferences this summer sharing some of those and we’re really excited about some of the things we found it’s having a very big sample gives us a lot of power to really understand what’s going on in some of these behaviors.

Bonni: [00:31:53] Oh it sounds wonderful. Well this is the point in this show where we get to give recommendations. And I had told you I was going back and forth on a couple of different ones and then somehow it landed on one that I’m really excited to share and that is HBO has a semi new show that has a whole different approach on how they report the news.

Bonni: [00:32:15] It’s called Vice and I was sharing with you felt that I learned more about bananas than I thought even was out there. And then also that they could make it fascinating. I was riveted by the banana story. They do a weekly show and then they also have daily news shows and I’ve learned about I told you about French politics and bananas and gosh a whole bunch of other things they do. They will send their reporters out and you were telling me that your wife Phil knows about the person who wrote the actually you should explain because you can explain it better what’s the problem with bananas on our web.

Phil: [00:32:50] Oh gosh now I’m going to be cited as an academic source for this is my understanding of this.

Bonni: [00:32:55] I promise you won’t.

Phil: [00:32:57] Well I believe we have only one species of banana and that therefore means that there are fairies. This increases the likelihood that some catastrophic event will remove the banana from the world. I’m not sure that they are under imminent threat but it comes up quite frequently I think that’s my understanding of it and I should give all sorts of carriers. So that’s where.

Bonni: [00:33:24] I am now the expert having watched one segment have one show about it and can tell you you’re correct. But they did go out and visit the places that are starting to have some disease ridden issues with our species of bananas and of course it would be relatively easy for those to spread and it could be a real problem for us and there’s a guy who wrote the banana book and they interviewed the guy about the banana Virk and it’s just I mean every time I watch this show I learn something new. It’s done on the ground reporting like journalism so rarely does any more it’s just really well done and a big big recommendation for HBO Vice.

Phil: [00:34:01] I thought long and hard about what to recommend. I thought you know looking back at some things that other people have recommended and there’s a lot of emphasis obviously in the podcast and the recommendations on ways to to better organize ourselves and to save ourselves time and make ourselves more efficient. And I thought to myself What is the the object that has actually helped me the most with all of that. The object that’s cause me given me the most improved my productivity my creativity and my organization.

Phil: [00:34:32] And the thing that I would recommend and it’s actually a dog. I don’t know if it’s appropriate for me to recommend getting a dog.

Bonni: [00:34:42] There’s no rules here.

Phil: [00:34:45] And if and if you don’t like dogs really what I’m recommending is just take a walk because that’s where I am that’s where all my useful thinking gets done is just you go out leave a phone behind turn the computer off and just take a walk or park your car a bit further away from your office.

Phil: [00:35:05] And in that time that 20 30 40 minutes that’s actually where everything can come down and interesting stuff can bubble back up and where oh my interesting thinking gets done my dog gets to hear about all of my ideas way before anybody else does so my recommendation. Take a walk and if possible take one with the dog.

Bonni: [00:35:26] What a lovely recommendation. I really appreciate that. Phil and I appreciate all of the guidance you’ve given us about academic integrity and how we can think about in our own teaching instead of patching the teat trying to reduce those opportunities to cheat and promote more good principles at assessment. And you’ve really inspired me today and really appreciate your time coming on the show.

Phil: [00:35:50] Thank you for having me Bonni.

Bonni: [00:35:54] Thanks for listening to this episode of Teaching in Higher Ed. This is Bonni giving you a reminder that if you want to connect outside of just listening to the podcast if you want more of a two way conversation I’m on Twitter and love engaging with so many members of the Teaching in Higher Ed community thereyou can connect with me @Bonni208. There’s no E in that name @Bonni208.

Bonni: [00:36:19] I have to tell you the story sometime but I don’t have time with the remaining outro music this time. Love to talk to you on Twitter if you’re interested in finding out more about the Teaching in Higher Ed Slack channel that’s open to people who are engaged in higher ed and you can find out more at teachinginhighered.com/slack Thanks so much for listening today and I’ll see you next time.

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