Demystifying Online Group Projects, with Rebecca Hogue

[00:00:00] Bonni Stachowiak: On today’s episode of Teaching in Higher Ed Number 403, Rebecca Hogue is back this time to talk about demystifying online group projects.

[00:00:13] Production Credit: Produced by Innovate Learning. Maximizing human potential.

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[00:00:22] Bonni: Welcome to this episode of Teaching in Higher Ed. I’m Bonnie Stachowiak and this is the space where we explore the art and science of being more effective at facilitating learning. We also share ways to improve our productivity approaches so we can have more peace in our lives and be even more present for our students.

Returning to Teaching in Higher Ed after many years is Rebecca Hogue. Rebecca is demystifying instructional design by creating online learning experiences. She’s a lecturer at the University of Massachusetts, Boston in the Master’s of Instructional Design Program where she loves introducing her students to instructional design and teaching project-based courses where her students’ talents always amaze her.

She lives in Bridgewater, Nova Scotia, Canada where she is helping to build Treehouse Village Ecohousing. She’s recently started a podcast called Demystifying Instructional Design where she interviews instructional designers about the work that they do. This has greatly improved her audio editing skills, but has also proven to be a great way to stay connected to the latest trends in the industry, which in turn informs her teaching. Rebecca, welcome back to Teaching in Higher Ed.

[00:01:52] Rebecca Hogue: Thanks, Bonni. I’m looking forward to having our conversation. It feels like it’s been forever since we’ve last talked.

[00:01:57] Bonni: I know, we just went and looked it up, April of 2017. Just a few things have changed and rather than us go through the timeline, there is one particular thing that I found really interesting about what’s changed in your life that I suspect listeners will. Could you tell us about the Treehouse Village Ecohousing?

[00:02:18] Rebecca: Sure. My husband and I were looking to move back to Canada, trying to figure out where we were going to move and it just so happened that we were looking to move to Nova Scotia, which is a beautiful province. We had come out here. This is before the pandemic, I guess 2019, had come out here looking for a place to live. We were visiting with friends and family, and we found that we didn’t have a community here.

I was dreading the move from like, I have an established community in California and I’m going to have to re-find friends again, re-establish everything again from the beginning. Then one day when we’re driving, my husband says, “Well,” he asked me if he could play the info session on this cohousing thing. I said, “I’ll bear with you. I’ll let you do it, sure, whatever, play it.” Then I learned a few key things and I was hooked, one of them being that I would have my own kitchen.

I get my own full condo that has everything in it. I don’t have to use a shared kitchen if I don’t want to. It’s this interesting combination of things, but we are a cohousing community in rural Nova Scotia. It’ll be the first one in Atlantic Canada, which is exciting. We’re building now. When we joined, it was still an idea. Now, we are under construction. We’re actually building 30 homes, condominiums on a nice little piece of land that is walking distance to downtown and has a forest for our backyard, so best of both worlds.

It’s really been interesting being involved in not just helping the physical build of a community. My expertise has been around online community building. I had joined the community. When we joined the community, there were people from all over the place, but most of the people were from Nova Scotia. We actually had to do a fair bit of teaching people.

We were doing development workshops and they were face to face and we were online. You can imagine two full days of people face to face going through workshops, and you’re trying to watch it on Zoom, painful at best. The community was willing to give it a go. We taught them to use the microphone, to speak into a microphone that doesn’t amplify, because the only thing the microphone did was give good voice for those that were listening online.

For those in the room, it made no difference. Do you know how unnatural it is to speak into a microphone that doesn’t amplify? We actually got everyone to do it, and it made all the difference in the world. Predominantly, I work on the marketing, but I also work in helping build the community. It’s really exciting. I’m excited about it. We are almost sold out. That’s really exciting too. We have a few more homes to sell and then we’ll be done. Done the selling part, but it’s super exciting to actually see the buildings come together.

[00:05:33] Bonni: Oh, I’m so intrigued. I was intrigued to begin with as you already know, but just the ways in which you’ve been able to bring your experience in building community online into this project. I was not aware of that. That was delightful to hear a little bit about. For today’s conversation, we’re going to be looking at what is hard to do in an in-person class. There’s lots of questions around an in-person class. How do you have students embark on group projects?

There’s all sorts of things that it’s fraught with peril at times and then we put it in online, and those problems can be exasperated and new ones can pop up. I’m so excited about you being able to offer your expertise, and for people listening, do want to say that you have written a blog post about this. You have an entire podcast about many of these issues and stuff, so lots of resources for people who want to follow up after today’s conversation.

Let’s begin just by having you help us see a little bit what have you seen to be some of the differences in terms of online teams versus teams and group projects that may happen in an in-person class.

[00:06:43] Rebecca: I think the biggest difference is that in in-person, kids are taught this in school. When they go through K to 12, they’re taught how to be on a team in a face-to-face setting. They’re not taught how to work together online. My students are mid-career professionals mostly, and they’ve never had that, “How do I even do this collaboration online?”

Although I have to say, after the last year and a half, a lot of people are a lot better at it than they used to be, but really, I think that’s probably the biggest difference is that the students don’t come into it with a lot of knowledge on how to do it. How do we even figure out how to make it work?

When you’re meeting face to face, it’s easier to do things like just stay after class and work together or come a half hour early and work together and see each other or talk at the break and catch up and whatever. Those types of things don’t happen when you’re working online. You have to be explicit about it. You can’t casually bump into your teammates. You have to actually plan it. That is one of the biggest differences and it’s also something that students don’t necessarily realize right away.

[00:08:12] Bonni: Another thing I know that you talk about and write about is that another thing that can get in our way is our egos. How do you help remind students about the importance of leaving our ego at the door, and why have you even seen that to be important to do in the first place?

[00:08:30] Rebecca: It’s interesting, but I find that it’s one of the things I do tell students to do. When you’re doing a group project, it isn’t about you. It’s about the group and it’s about the whole thing working and it won’t work if you’re competing with each other. Unfortunately, our education system teaches our students to compete with each other and everything is a competition.

One of the things that that ego message tries to break down is get rid of the competition and become a team player and become part of the team. As the instructor, I don’t care who did what on your project. I just want it to feel, look, and sound cohesive. I should note though that, actually I teach more than one course, but in the intro course, we focus much more on the process of the online teamwork and how to actually be successful in that process.

In my other courses, I assume that students have had that because they have all taken my intro course. Later on in the program, they’ve had much practice and are much better at it.

[00:09:46] Bonni: What are some important considerations that you take into how to form groups in these online classes and to what extent do you have them form them or you form them for them? How do you go about that process?

[00:10:00] Rebecca: This is interesting because when I did my master’s degree way back when in distributive learning, we learnt and we’re taught that the best way to create student groups online is random student groups, and that they should be created for students. Don’t expect students to pair up, that has got to be one of the worst things ever. One thing’s I always hated in student projects is now I have to find partners and figure all that. When you’re online and you don’t know each other, forget that, that’s not going to work at all.

I actually recall, and I don’t recall whether or not I read it or I heard it at a conference, I think it might have come up at a conference, where the experience had been that instructor assigned groups were more effective than random groups. I took that to heart because one of the challenges when I had one of the groups that didn’t work in one of the early days of me teaching this, not all of my student groups were successful. They never always are.

One of them that didn’t work was because the students had too hard of a time figuring out how to meet. That just became the issue for them. It occurred to me that that’s one of the things that I should be asking my students. I actually create a student roster as it were where students put in their name, how they want to be contacted by their colleagues, so whether that’s the university email or not. That’s up to them how they want to be contacted.

Then I say, when do you want to do group work? Is it evenings? Is it weekends? Is it weekdays? Some of my students are getting paid to do their mas– They’re doing their master’s through work, and they’re able to use daytime work hours to do coursework. Some of my students, it’s evenings and weekends, or it’s after the kids go to bed or whatever, that mix.

I get them to put that in there, but then I add a couple extra columns. I added a column of strengths. It’s like, what are the things you can teach your colleagues? Then another column for an area where you want to develop more skills. I use mostly the column on when you’re available because that’s the number one thing that I need is make sure that I get students that are available.

Then when I have multiple ways in which to mix students, I then go on to the next column of information to see if I can try and make sure that each project group has a variety of skills so that there’s at least one person in the project group that likes project management and one person in the group likes doing presentations. I think those are two of the key parts, and so if I can build the groups with a little bit of that sense, which actually mimics the real world a lot more than random groups do.

You get hired into a job based upon your skillset and you pair with people with different skills. It’s a little bit closer to the real world as well. I found I’ve had significantly more success. I still occasionally get groups that don’t perform as well, or I rarely get a group that just really doesn’t work. Typically, when that does happen, there are other mitigating factors that I wasn’t aware of when I did the assignment that caused those problems.

[00:13:25] Bonni: I know another way that you help students is to help them in terms of determining meeting times for the groups. Do you have any suggestions for us on that?

[00:13:34] Rebecca: Yes. Part of what I do is, when I introduced teamwork, I have actually a particular online sync session where I have them meet their team members, do their first team assignment which is their team agreement. I have them do them in breakout rooms. I actually just leave the rooms open, and I tell them, okay, we’re going to come in, we’re going to do this.

Then I’m just going to send you to your breakout rooms. I will leave them open. You guys decide when you’re going to meet next, how you’re going to meet. You can do as much as you want, and I will just close it when I notice that you’re finished. Then I just close things off at that point. That just gives everybody that first step.

The hardest thing for students to do, again when they’re meeting online and trying to do that teamwork, is that first meeting, figuring out how they’re going to connect and get together, and so giving them that through some of my class hours as it were. I do very little synchronous like one hour a week and not every week, but I do dedicate one for that because I think that that’s an important way to get the ball rolling as it were.

[00:14:48] Bonni: Would you talk a little bit more about the group agreement, what’s it’s comprised of and how it helps them be able to be effective in their work?

[00:14:56] Rebecca: Yes. I have them also talk to each other about their strengths and weaknesses. I think that’s an important thing so that everybody knows everybody else’s strengths and weaknesses. I also have them talk about how they want to work. They have to, at that point, say, okay, when are you meeting? How often are you meeting? How are you meeting? What technologies are you going to be using to communicate with each other? What are your expectations of each other?

If I send you an email, how soon do you expect the response? Again, that’s another one of those teams that fell apart was like somebody working nine to five and another person not working nine to five sending text messages, expecting the person working nine to five to respond. Well, that’s not going to work. Setting all of those expectations up front, and then I also highlight my favorite one which is assume good intentions. Assume good intentions, assume good intentions.

The other thing that I bring out to students is again students often come into this with this sense of fairness. This sense of we need to set this up so that it’s not fair that I’m doing more work or whatever. I actually just have them reposition that in their brains a bit and go, you’re learning more than the other person in your group. That other person in your group actually may have a lot other things going on in their life right now.

It just happens to be my students are all adults. They often have families, kids, spouses, parents, whatever. That sometimes gets in the way. If you’re doing a little bit more than one of your colleagues, you need to look at it from the benefit of the learning that’s happening. You’re benefiting more so you’re gaining more out of it and to stop thinking about fairness as everybody does the same work and think about it again more on you get what you put into it kind of thing, and so that you’re benefiting by doing more, not getting taken advantage of.

[00:17:15] Bonni: A big part of course of this kind of group work is going to involve collaboration. Would you talk about some of the collaboration types of tools that you invite them to use in the process and how you go about that?

[00:17:27] Rebecca: Yes, sure. I introduce a few different things and they’ve changed– the tools changed every term. I’ve actually started to use less. There’s a couple of different people that will blog post like the 27 best collaboration tools or whatever. I’ve started to use that, and one of the things that I require them to do in that first week introduction is to pick three tools and do like in essence a discussion form.

Everybody has to report on different tools so that, as a group, they have to try something together and report on what it is, and everybody in the class does something. You get to hear a lot more about different ones. My students really like [inaudible 00:18:11] which is a bit of a whiteboard, a bit of a Kanban board. I can’t even say that right.

[00:18:20] Bonni: I can only say it if I changed my accent, a Kanban. [laughs]

[00:18:25] Rebecca: Kanban board.

[laughter]

[00:18:28] Rebecca: One of those.

[00:18:30] Bonni: People can stop laughing at me now.

[00:18:30] Rebecca: There’s another one that does that too.

[00:18:35] Bonni: Trello? Is it Trello?

[00:18:36] Rebecca: Trello, yes. Trello’s the one I was thinking about. Some students love that. A lot of them are just happy to work in Google Docs. Google Docs is by far one of the favorites. Google Docs, Google Slides. We are a Microsoft University as well as a Google university, so we have both. They can use anything in Office 360, but most of my students don’t choose that one because they have work computers and they can’t install things on work computers. That just makes it more complicated than that.

They’re instructional designers. They often will use some of the more complicated tools like Camtasia or whatever to create things that are much more flashy or whatever than really others do, but that’s okay. The other one I was thinking about is Microsoft Sway. They really like Sway for presentation and Google Sites which is the equivalent of Sway, but that’s for giving a presentation which is also a very different experience in an online–

Zoom has actually become really good. What they’ll do is they’ll have their meeting in Zoom and then they’ll record themselves doing their presentation and just record the Zoom room while they do the presentation. I can’t imagine how many takes some of this stuff is done. They’ll do the whole thing in one take with no mistakes and I’m thinking, how many times did you guys try that? [chuckles] That’s a lot of work.

[00:20:14] Bonni: Something that seems to be underpinning in the way that you approach this that has worked well for me, and I only know this because I’ve failed so many times at this in the past, is to invite people to be playful so much the time you bring in to technology, and perhaps not as much with instructional designers. There’s just this tension and this like “I can’t do this and I’m angry with you” person. I’m only just meeting at “making me do this” versus let’s look at this with a child’s eye, let’s look at this and play and experiment and what happens if I do this and inviting people to that.

Sometimes I’ll play a couple of different videos of a swing dance type that I used to do in my 20s, called the Lindy Hop. You can do the Lindy Hop. Six-count is the basic step and you can do it in a– show them a more choreographed dance, and that both parties know where the next step is going to be.

I say you can tell, but you actually can’t tell with the ones who are improvising that it actually is improvised other than it’s a contest, the video I show them, and you see them picking the name out of the lead partner, and then picking the name out of the follow partner. Then the DJ picks a song that they’ve never heard. Maybe they’ve heard the song, but they’ve never danced so it’s not a choreographed thing. Then we talk about those differences.

I found that sometimes just being able to help people name their tension and wanting the rules to be clear and then to recognize that that limits us from really being able to explore something new, and appreciate it for what it might be able to do if we’re already sure we can’t use it. We’re already sure that it makes us angry. Again, I don’t know how much you run into that with instructional designers. Perhaps they’re able to bring more of that childlike spirit to it.

[00:22:00] Rebecca: We do that. Well, I think part of it is that I also have a stream that runs through the entire course called This Weekend Ed Tech. Each week, I’m introducing them to new tools but in a very quick and dirty thing. I teach them to set a three-hour timer so that you don’t end up time thinking too much into this. Set a timer, don’t spend more than this amount of time, play with the tool.

Exactly, it’s that spirit of play. Play with it, see whether it works for you. You know what? I promise you that not everything is going to work, and that’s okay. Just don’t think too much time into a tool that’s not going to work for you, but also keep in mind that tools change with time.

The tool that was my favorite tool two years ago is not very good today. The tool that I dismissed two years ago is now the best one, because it changed so much. It’s an ever-moving target. I also teach them to use YouTube a lot. If you don’t know how to do it, just go to YouTube and search, someone’s created a tutorial on it.

[00:23:11] Bonni: I love that. You’re cracking me up because you’re reminding me of that interplay. I love that idea, by the way of having a cadence to have a space and a structure where new and emerging ideas come out. I think sometimes, we go too far on one end or the other. It’s either our entire course is completely planned or there are some who just say, “Oh, don’t plan any of it. You couldn’t possibly know.” It’s like there’s this in-between space where we can have that structure and the plans, and then we can also plan for what is emerging. I love that.

The other thing you’re reminded me of, Rebecca, is just when you build the kinds of relationships where it is more of a community of learners together, then you get to come across things like I did. I had been using Zoom for years, for years, and I was introduced to how do we share our screen, and then what happens when someone else shares their screen.

Because I had so many people talk about that Zoom just takes over their screen and goes full screen, they don’t know what to do, they don’t know about Alt-Tab or Command-Tab to get back into their other applications, so then I would show them, “Okay, so you go up here and then you click up here and then you get out of full screen.”

The student says, “Well, I always just press my escape key.” I’m like, “All those years of using Zoom, I had no idea that when it goes to full screen, you could just hit your escape key and it takes you back to full full screen.” [laughs] If I didn’t have that space of playfulness that– They were actually shocked. They couldn’t believe that I’d been using Zoom and, of course I know everything, I say sarcastically, that they were so shocked that that’s possible.

Yes, that happens all of the time, every day without fail that, when you have that orientation of experimentation by its very nature, you’re going to uncover a lot and especially when you’re in these kinds of special communities that we get to be in. Well, I’d love to have you talk a little bit then about, as you’re then closing down these group projects, what kinds of self and peer review do you have them conduct? When do you do that and what does that look like?

[00:25:12] Rebecca: I have a form that I actually inherited from another instructor that I give them at the very end. After they’ve submitted their assignment, all of that’s done. Then there’s just a small portion of the team project that is given to the peer review part. I have them tell me what did you do for the project, and how would you rate your– On the table, where you’re rating your colleagues, I need them to write a paragraph and then rate their colleagues on things like timeliness and who did what or participation, and these various things.

I have them rate themselves as well as their colleagues. More often than not, they’re harsher on themselves. Also, often, they might give themselves four out of five and I give them five out of five anyway, because it isn’t really about that.

Where that helps is if there really is somebody who is lagging or who is disruptive to the team, it gives me an opportunity to figure out how and why they were disruptive to the team and give them meaningful feedback, so that the next time they’re working on a team, they know what they shouldn’t be doing. Often again, when the teams fall apart, the person that didn’t collaborate well usually knows it and gives themselves a lower mark, but not always.

Sometimes they’ll give themselves a full mark and I’m like, “Ah,” but their two colleagues or their three colleagues give them really low marks and I’m like, “Yes, okay.” I can deduct some marks for this which will cause you then to read my feedback, because then you’ll know why I deducted marks. I can give them some tips to help them be better teammates in the future. I know that this is a skill that they’re going to need to learn and use.

Throughout our program at least half if not more of the classes have at least some form of team project, and so it’s really important that they do learn how to be an effective teammate.

[00:27:25] Bonni: Then what do you advise as far as the scope of group projects? Should these be smaller projects, big projects, something in between?

[00:27:35] Rebecca: I think that a successful group project is one that an individual can’t do themselves. It has to be doable, first of all, that the project can do it. In some ways, it’s got to be small enough that you have to allow for all of the extra time it takes for collaboration in order to produce it. On the other hand, it has to be big enough that you don’t want students coming out of it saying, “I could have done a better job myself.” You don’t want them ever having to feel that.

Now, in some cases, I have projects, like one of the group projects that I’m giving, requires them to do an evaluation of three or four different pieces of software. Each person has to do the evaluation on the team, and then they have to bring it together and have a team thing. They can’t have done it on their own. There’s no way for them to do it on their own. I think that’s part of the value of it, is that they have to rely on each other to bring it all together.

I think back to the projects that have been the worst disasters in my school history, which were mostly in elementary school actually, were ones that either I did 100% or my partner did 100%. Fortunately, I had the same partner all the time. We were able to, in essence, share that kind of thing but it was totally not collaborative because the assignments weren’t so big that they needed to be. I think that that’s one of the problems with it. It has to be complicated enough that you need the team of ideas.

My students tend to come out and generally, usually, they come in apprehensive and it’s like, “Oh, I hate group,” because they’ve only had negative experiences. By the end of the semester, they’re like, “Oh, I love this. This is awesome,” because they got to know colleagues. That’s the other big advantage online because it’s really hard to get to know people. You can’t just go grab a coffee after class.

It actually is a really great way for students in the class to actually get to know each other and contact each other outside the learning management system in a way. Quite often, if one of my students disappears, I’ll ask their teammates, “Do you have a way you can text them and tell them I can’t find them or whatever? Tell them to contact me,” because that does work actually quite nicely.

[00:30:08] Bonni: Well, Rebecca, this is the time in the show where we each get to share our recommendations. I’m going to take us I think an entirely different direction, but we’ll find out. Maybe you’ll find a connection to this and to cohousing. Is that what’s– cohousing?

[00:30:23] Rebecca: Cohousing, yes.

[00:30:23] Bonni: Cohousing, I was making sure I had the right word there. On Teaching in Higher Ed for people who aren’t aware of this, I had a really fun time working with our web developer to create a consolidated list of all the recommendations, everything that’s ever been recommended in the history of Teaching in Higher Ed, and it’s fun. If you’ve never gone there before, by the way, the link will be in the show notes. You can go browse by the type of recommendation it was.

There’s lots of great books that have been recommended, lots of great people to follow either on Twitter or their blogs. There’s movies and TV and all of this. I was realizing it had been such a long time since anyone and specifically me had recommended music. There were a couple of songs that I wanted to recommend for you today. One is called Sunday Best by a group called Surfaces, and it is one that I share a lot of the students who I typically teach students who are much younger than me for the most part, most classes I teach.

It’s one that is on the top of a lot of their playlists. It’s also on the top of mine. It showed up on my number one song listened to in 2021. I was laughing because I was thinking about the lyrics. They’re very simple and maybe hokey, but “Everyone falls down sometimes, but you just got to know it’ll all be fine. It’s okay. uh-huh, uh-huh. It’s okay. It’s okay. Everyone can be a better day. Despite the challenge, all you got to do is leave it better than you found it.” It’s one that always picks me up when I’m feeling blue, that’s Sunday Best by Surfaces.

Then the second one is an entirely different mood and feeling. This is a version of the song, The Nearness of You by Abbey Lincoln and Hank Jones, and it’s just a gorgeous duet. Of course, that song is just such a beautiful song with such beautiful lyric. Those are my two recommendations, one to lift you up and maybe the other one to make you remind you of just being appreciative of someone that you love. That’s my recommendations for today and, Rebecca, I’m going to pass it over to you.

[00:32:32] Rebecca: Thank you. I have an interesting recommendation here, well, sort of recommendations, I guess. One of them is to remember self-care. Don’t forget. It is so easy especially as an instructor in this world today to get so caught up in making sure things are okay for our students that we forget to make sure things are okay for ourselves, and that’s a key part.

What I did for self-care is I got a puppy, which sounds ridiculous. Every time I take her for a walk and I walk a mile pretty much every time I take her out, and every time I do that, I say, if I didn’t have this puppy, I wouldn’t be up at 7:30 in the morning when it’s minus 16, because it was cold this morning. That’s Celsius, sorry, but still below freezing, well, well below freezing. Out walking in the cold, but watching the sunrise when the sun is coming out, and it’s just beautiful outside. It’s tranquil and whatever.

I’m like, “I wouldn’t have done that have I not had this puppy that needed to get up first thing in the morning and go outside and go for a walk.” Yes, I found that getting a puppy has been probably one of the best things I could have done for self-care and both mental and physical health.

[00:33:57] Bonni: Oh, I love both of these recommendations. Rebecca, I’m so glad to be reconnected with you. I feel in some ways we’ve stayed connected, but just to get to have another follow-up conversation after all this time has just been such a pleasure for me to do that.

[00:34:11] Rebecca: Excellent. Can I plug my podcast?

[00:34:13] Bonni: Absolutely. Please do.

[00:34:16] Rebecca: [laughs] Although it’s very niche, I teach instructional designers, and so my podcast is called Demystifying Instructional Design where I interview instructional designers. If you’re an instructional designer and you want to be my guest, you can go to my website, demystifyinginstructionaldesign.com. There’s a “be my guest” form. Yes, I’m having fun. It’s been a great professional development experience for me and a great way to have conversations with amazing people.

[00:34:46] Bonni: Yes. I listened to a couple of episodes and would just say, as somebody who– I guess I come at it that we’re all instructional designers, just some of us may have been trained to do it matters, may not have, but I mean maybe that’s just because I come from a small place where that’s what we’re expected to do as parts of our roles and stuff, but yes, really good information and great guests, as you said. I’m glad that you’re sharing about that resource. Of course, that will also be in the links on today’s show notes as well. Thank you again, Rebecca.

[00:35:16] Rebecca: You’re welcome. Thank you.

[music]

[00:35:21] Bonni: Thanks once again to Rebecca Hogue for joining me for today’s episode of Teaching in Higher Ed. You can access the show notes at teachinginhighered.com/403. You are also more than welcome to head on over to teachinginhighered.com/subscribe, so that all of those show notes come to you once a week as the most recent episode show notes along with some other recommended episodes, some quotable words and recommendations that don’t show up on the main podcast.

Again, head on over to teachinginhighered.com/subscribe, and I would look forward to staying in community with you through that additional means. Thanks for being a part of the Teaching in Higher Ed community and I’ll see you next time.

[00:36:23] [END OF AUDIO]

The transcript of this episode has been made possible through a financial contribution by the Association of College and University Educators (ACUE). ACUE is on a mission to ensure student success through quality instruction. In partnership with institutions of higher education nationwide, ACUE supports and credentials faculty members in the use of evidence-based teaching practices that drive student engagement, retention, and learning. 

Teaching in Higher Ed transcripts are created using a combination of an automated transcription service and human beings. This text likely will not represent the precise, word-for-word conversation that was had. The accuracy of the transcripts will vary. The authoritative record of the Teaching in Higher Ed podcasts is contained in the audio file.