EPISODE 608: Overcoming the Curse of Expertise and Other Ways to Be Inclusive in Our Teaching with Sheila Tabanli

Bonni Stachowiak [00:00:00]:

Today on episode number 608 of the Teaching in Higher Ed podcast, Overcoming the Curse of Expertise and Other Ways to Be Inclusive in our Teaching, with Sheila Tabanley. 

Bonni Stachowiak [00:00:010]:

Production Credit: Produced by Innovate Learning, Maximizing Human Potential. 

Bonni Stachowiak [00:00:25]:

Welcome to this episode of Teaching in Higher Ed. I’m Bonni Stachowiak, and this is the space where we explore the art and science of being more effective at facilitating learning. We also share ways to improve our productivity approaches, so we can have more peace in our lives and be even more present for our students. Today on episode 608 of Teaching in Higher Ed, I’m joined by Sheila Tabanli. She’s going to help us explore how we can overcome the curse of expertise, and teach in more inclusive ways. She draws on her work in teaching all kinds of classes, including introductory math classes, and helping students not just to learn the content, but to learn how to learn. She also illustrates and embodies how to show compassion, build community, and consider the role of cognitive apprenticeship as we seek to deepen learning, all while maintaining high expectations and helping students thrive.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:01:41]:

Sheila Tabanli, welcome to Teaching in Higher Ed.

Sheila Tabanli [00:01:45]:

Bonni, thank you for having me. It’s such a pleasure.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:01:48]:

We’ve talked a lot on this podcast about how overwhelming things can get sometimes for us, and also how small things can make such a big difference. And as we come into our conversation together, I want you to tell me about Math 125 5 years ago, and some of the small things, seemingly small things, you started to notice about that course that was begging for change.

Sheila Tabanli [00:02:18]:

Yes, thank you. So about little bit about me. I know the audience already heard about it, but I have been teaching for about 25 years. This is when I came to United States, as a graduate student in computer science, middle of Missouri. And I was a high school teacher, and in 2019 I started full-time at Rutgers University, and this when the pandemic hit the whole world. During that time, I proposed a course about effective study strategies, because I noticed that the students in my introductory calculus courses, they can become more effective learners if there is a way for them to learn it in an explicit way. And then I proposed this course, a brand new course, and it became, it has a long story actually I wrote a journal article about it. The history of this course, how it started as a winter course for two weeks as a pilot, and then it turned into a mini course for seven weeks.

Sheila Tabanli [00:03:25]:

It’s all online, and then it transitioned into a full-semester hybrid course, where students are taught explicitly how to study and learn mathematics grounded in the research in cognitive science, and also self-regulated learning theory.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:03:46]:

So one of the big tensions that I know comes up for so many of us, is this tension between our disciplines telling us, you need to cover this, cover this, cover this, and then what so many of us, including yourself, we find, but wait, I’m trying to cover all this stuff, but they’re not learning all this stuff. So how have you navigated the tension between your discipline, perhaps your colleagues, perhaps other experts in the field, thinking more is better, and then as you began to see, no less is better. And if we supplement those fundamentals with the learning science, and the self-regulated learning, tell us more about that.

Sheila Tabanli [00:04:36]:

So you are absolutely right. And being rigorous doesn’t mean not to be compassionate, or to be aware of what students are bringing to the class. I have been teaching first year, those courses, and some of these courses are explicitly labeled as a strictly coordinated courses, which means there is a strict coordination because we want to have everything consistent, depending on who is teaching the course or who’s not teaching the course. So I do understand the need for the consistency. However, as you pointed out, and especially for demanding courses, I’m not saying it’s a hard course; it’s a demanding course, like introductory calculus courses, whether it’s engineering, life science, or business calculus for business majors. These are, I will, I label it as a demanding courses. But we don’t have to sacrifice from the core content because, honestly, we won’t be able to cover every format of a question or every question type that students may eventually see in a midterm, or a final exam. So this is something I explicitly share with my students.

Sheila Tabanli [00:05:53]:

And actually, we do the math in class because out of a 7 days, 24 hours schedule that we humans have, I’m seeing these students only twice a week for 80 minutes, 8,0 so, which means during this very limited time, we will ensure that we are covering the curriculum, the topics, the sections, we have to cover it. However, there is a lot going on outside the classroom, and the students are aware of that. The responsibility is on them. The accountability part, the self-regulated learning, that’s where it comes to the picture. So I strongly believe that there is no need to sacrifice from the content, nor the empathy, the compassion that we can provide for our students. These are not mutually exclusive things. We can still slow down. We can still show how an expert solves a math problem, without sacrificing from the rigor or the content.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:06:55]:

In a past episode, I shared an article that James Lang wrote for The Chronicle of Higher Education. I might get the title slightly off here, but it’s said something like, if it’s important, do it in class. And as we think about, yeah, as we think about, I mean really how for many of us who have been teaching for a while or a long, long while, just kind of that shift, I mean it’s sort of like something we’ve always known, but we then we had the we’ll do this flipped learning and do this before you come. And now just that realization of really centering on what happens in class. You’ve brought up compassion. And I know compassion is one of the three components in your 3C Pedagogical Model. Let’s talk a bit now about cognitive apprenticeship.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:07:45]:

What are you finding about thinking about ourselves in that way, and learners too? That’s kind of a shift from maybe how you approach things before, or how you notice people in higher education approaching these kinds of roles before.

Sheila Tabanli [00:08:01]:

Yes, wonderful, thank you for this opportunity. Yes, I do recall James Lang’s article that you mentioned. And, so after building, developing this instructional framework based on cognitive science, and Barbara Oakley’s resources are fantastic. I know she was a guest in your podcast also. So I think it, I believe it enabled me to get out of my comfort zone, to learn something that I didn’t know before. Although I have been teaching all these years, I noticed that there is a name for it, in learning sciences such as Interlude Practice.

Sheila Tabanli [00:08:34]:

I call it Mixed Review. And several textbooks actually label it as mixed review. But Interlude Practice is the science-informed way of mentioning the evidence-based strategy. So the compassion content is, I became aware of it when I read about the National Academy’s book on how people learn. And this is during the time I was developing the interdisciplinary course Math 125, as you mentioned. And I noticed that, okay, there are differences between how experts and novices look at this content. So the way that I look at a calculus problem is not the same way as a novice, a student who is signed up to learn this content, a novice, a learner, a mathematician still, because mathematician doesn’t mean it’s only the people who teaches the math, but those are also the people who learn the math.

Sheila Tabanli [00:09:32]:

The way we look at this exact the same problem is different. And based on that book, I start learning more about the perception gap. And I’m thankful for the several resources that my institution provides. I did a fellowship on this, enabling what the perception gap is, and analyzing that. What are the differences between the novices and experts? And specifically, an expert in a field doesn’t necessarily mean they will be able to effectively teach that content.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:10:05]:

Yeah, let’s, let’s, let’s spend a little time on that. So you’re talking about a perception gap,  and a barrier that those of us who might be experts in a given field that we face. And don’t we often face it without even realizing it?

Sheila Tabanli [00:10:21]:

Exactly.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:10:22]:

Tell us more about that. What does that look like, someone who’s an expert in your field? How do we get in the way of ourselves sometimes when we’re the expert?

Sheila Tabanli [00:10:30]:

I think it became more relatable to me, and I wrote an op-ed on Inside Higher Education about it. Me and my husband a few years ago, we started taking dance lessons. We both love music. And then in my mind, I’m gonna just go and groove and be happy and dance however I wish. And I realized that wasn’t the case. So the music instructor was very disciplined, and he instructed us how to do specific moves, how to do a step back, step forward, how to hold your partner. Everything is very specific. But that’s not what I had in mind when I signed up for this course.

Sheila Tabanli [00:11:12]:

And then I noticed that my husband, and he’s an atomic physicist by the way, he did it way faster than I did. I was struggling to remember the moves, and he’s like, okay, I’m gonna need you. This is what we are gonna do. And then I, I felt like, I felt like a student in my calculus course, who might be struggling with the same content. So I was placed like, if you give me a calculus problem, I know how to do it. But in the dance class, and we signed up for a whole year, that was a commitment. We didn’t give up. But I felt like, wow, the things that I don’t know in this life.

Sheila Tabanli [00:11:51]:

So I think I could be an expert in a higher education math class, undergrad level course. But I also need to be aware, and be mindful of the fact that I’m a novice in some other field. So I think for anyone who is looking for any idea of how to recognize this, how a student views their content, whether it’s mathematics, chemistry, and these are the two gatekeeper courses for STEM. I suggest, sign up to a course that you have no idea, and then we’ll talk later. You know, like, in other words, feel how it mean, what it means to be a novice.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:12:35]:

Boy, I could not love your analogy any better. It has been many decades since I myself have taken a dance class, but the memories are so vivid still in my mind. The kind of dance that I used to do in my early 20s is called the Lindy Hop, and very similar to the steps that you’re describing. There’s an eight-count basic step to it. Some dances are six counts. This particular one is an eight-count basic step. But in our disciplines, there’s kind of the learning the basics.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:13:11]:

But as educators, I just feel like we have to stop thinking that our way of doing whatever it is, our expertise is where it should end. I mean, shouldn’t we all aspire to students who eventually far surpass us and who, if we could get them to, yes, learn the fundamentals, but then with this respect and regard and human dignity for the possibility of what they might be able to achieve well beyond anything that we could. And that’s the fun thing about music, or art or, I suppose, probably I would never consider myself to be an expert in anything having to do with STEM. But I still could imagine, though, that learning the basics then frees you to sort of break some of those rules, if you will, or to deconstruct some of what we think of. And that’s how innovation happens. That’s how scientific discovery happens.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:14:09]:

So I love that analogy. Another thing that you are reminding me of comes from Stephen Brookfield’s wonderful book on critically reflective teaching. And in the book, he talks about four lenses that we might use when we’re analyzing our teaching. And too often, we only look at the data of our course evaluations. So one of the other four lenses you just so beautifully described for us here, that is putting ourselves, or sometimes we don’t even have to put ourselves, sometimes we can just be expected to show up in contexts where we are the learner. Or in his case, he gives an example of faculty meetings. He says, next time you’re in a faculty meeting, whatever feelings you might be having, one of them could be boredom, disengaged, or whatever. Perhaps use that as a lens to improve the context of your own classroom,

Bonni Stachowiak [00:15:11]:

and so what you were sharing was also reminding me of, when we put ourselves in positions to be the learner, to be so far outside of our element. I could just picture you and your husband in that dance class, you know, and how you were experiencing it, and how he was and how healthy that is. Yeah. But the context that we work in, we sometimes just avoid that at all costs, because we don’t want to fall. I literally had fallen when I was learning how to dance. And, you know, people would come and they’d see, they’d go, like, I want to do that. Well, guess what? There’s a lot of road between where I am today as a dancer, and where I started. And so many times that’s hidden from our view. So there’s one other aspect we haven’t touched on yet with your, with your framework here, the 3C pedagogical model.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:16:01]:

And it is community. Or perhaps we haven’t touched on it yet enough. Tell us how community now comes into play between compassion, cognitive apprenticeship. It doesn’t feel exactly like a recipe, but we don’t want to leave out community. What do we have to learn from you about community?

Sheila Tabanli [00:16:20]:

So to make it very personal, I’m a first-generation immigrant to this country. This is a beautiful country. I’m originally from Turkey, and this is something I share with my students. First day of classes, I share pictures of my family, and I acknowledge that I have an accent, and this is part of my identity. So I don’t have a big community here. I personally don’t have an extended family here. So I think I personally have a more, or a greater or deeper need to belong to a bigger community. Whether it’s the women in STEM community, or whether in the town that I live, we have a beautiful diverse community, or whether it’s the colleagues, the semester support group that I have been building that community.

Sheila Tabanli [00:17:10]:

And I believe that students just like us, any human, need that connection. So one of the first day activities, again, my first day of class is not about, much about the content, but it’s about selling that culture that I’m going to be making mistakes. I will be making a lot of mistakes. I acknowledge it, and I even ask everyone, please raise your hand if you never make a mistake in your life. And nobody raises their hand because as humans we make a mistake. But in order to build that community, I also ask everyone, please rise up if you want to succeed in this class. So in other words, students has to act. They have to actively show me that they are willing to, they are committed to, they are interested in succeeding in at calculus course.

Sheila Tabanli [00:18:03]:

And as you can guess, everyone gets up, everyone rises up. And then I wait, and I ask them, I invite them, please look around. This is your community. You are all here to succeed. You may look different, you may have different interests, you may have different career interests or personal interests, but we have at least one thing in common. You all want to succeed in this class. So this is your community. And that community, I want to have a little bit of a self-reflection.

Sheila Tabanli [00:18:35]:

I need to find better ways to foster that community throughout the semester. Because as you pointed out, once we are in that race, in a way to be able to finish everything by the certain dates. So students are well prepared for the midterms, and the final, and the quizzes. Sometimes there’s a challenge to keep fostering that community. And there’s something as a self reflection, there’s something I need to find better ways to continue to foster that community.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:19:06]:

Yeah, I often have thought about the different rhythms, and of course it depends on are we teaching in a trimester system? Are we, how long, how long are these classes? But there does seem to be this rhythm, where certainly for me, my experience is, you know, about, about, I don’t know, 75% through the class. I had to sort of get accustomed to that that just dip in people’s motivation levels. The dip or the big rise in their stress levels isn’t reflective of me doing something bad. That sometimes that’s just kind of a natural thing. There’s a teams researcher, Tuckman, who did the forming, storming, norming, performing, and adjourning. And that, that to me is like normal, then as a leader, when you pull a team together, when they start storming, doesn’t mean you’re doing a bad thing as a leader

Bonni Stachowiak [00:19:56]:

that that’s a normal part of how teams form. So for me, what you’re talking about in terms of wanting to sustain that community, you know, how can we go about, sometimes it’s just, it is kind of natural. You also talked about, that sometimes we’re required to adhere to what other people have structured. Maybe people listening are teaching in a class where they don’t have a choice. They have to follow certain requirements for a given class. They’ve tried to speak into them, but maybe it’s not quite gone their way. But I guess sometimes it’s just helpful to know these are some normal rhythms. You’re not going to find perfection.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:20:35]:

Whatever you might define that as across, you know, an entire course. It just doesn’t happen. But to be recognizing that there is a certain rhythm to it. Are there things that you do to try to maybe revive that commitment that you so articulated from the beginning? Like to, we’re 3/4 through the semester, is there anything that you try to do to hey, let’s come back together and remember our responsibility to ourselves, but to each other too.

Sheila Tabanli [00:21:02]:

We, as a department, we participate in the midterm, mid semester evaluations. But in addition to this, I also try to give surveys to students to see how I am doing. And the analogy, I use it sometimes in the, in the bumper sticker of the trucks, you see how is my driving? Call this number, if I’m not driving well. And I remind them this is how it is because I need to know. So basically, I tell them I didn’t develop a mind-reading ability, so I need to hear it from them. And again, something beautiful at my institution is there are pins that say speak up. And I use it because if they don’t speak up, if they don’t self-advocate for their own learning, like how am I doing? Did I get it? Did I not get it? And then that comes with that slowing down, giving them time. And it’s not easy, as we all know, but giving that time to process it.

Sheila Tabanli [00:22:01]:

And that is part of that being aware of that perception gap. Yes, it is easy to me. I mean this stuff is it to me. And I tell them I have this curse of expertise, or it’s also called novelty effect from the educational psychology. I know it all in that content. But if a novice, if a learner doesn’t speak up, then I might be going so fast, and I’m gonna be, that’s not good for my students. So I explicitly tell them that about the curse of expertise that me, and other experts have it. And this is a course that, you know, I’m very familiar with.

Sheila Tabanli [00:22:40]:

I taught this content many, many times. So I invite them to speak up to point out my mistakes. I do make mistakes in my classes, and I give them extra points to speak up, to self-advocate for their own learning. And I think self-advocacy is very important. Not in a math classroom, but if they want to get an internship, a job, there is life after higher ed. I mean, we all know that tuition in this country is expensive. So all the students and their parents are committed to get this degree, and to learn and to graduate, and to get a job. So especially in first year students, it is important to remind them about the bigger picture.

Sheila Tabanli [00:23:27]:

There is life after college.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:23:30]:

You said earlier about some of the research, the evidence around what, how do we facilitate learning? Well, how can we raise the likelihood of helping someone learn? If you were talking to a faculty member who, this is going to be a false dichotomy, but just we only get to try one, one research-informed change in our teaching, what’s one among many, I’m sure, but what’s one change that would be really a good thing for many other faculty colleagues around the world focus on?

Sheila Tabanli [00:24:02]:

So I, I would say retrieval practice, which means, so it’s not about like my students, they are, they take great notes and they are very meticulous, they are very organized. I love it. Like they show me their notes, they use their iPad, and everything is color-coded, like that’s the way I also teach my class. Our department gave us an iPad, so I projected, and I encourage them to write down the way I’m writing it, so they can mimic how an expert approaches to a problem. But what I also do after, let’s say I write down a procedure about, for example, optimization, which is an application of derivatives.

Sheila Tabanli [00:24:44]:

It has six different steps. But, just because they take neat notes doesn’t mean they were able to absorb that information. So what I do, I close the notes, and then I say, let’s retrieve. What was step one? Do you remember it? And I walk around, I give them time, and I say, don’t peek, try to remember it. Try to go through that process, and it’s not going to be easy to remember it. But this is more effective than you keep rewriting the same thing over and over again, or highlighting the book over and over again, versus when you make those connections between the neurons stronger, by keep retrieving that information back and forth between the long-term memory and the short-term memory. That’s how those pathways are going to get stronger. And this is something I have also I learned it from Dr.Oakley’s Coursera book.

Sheila Tabanli [00:25:35]:

And also there is a beautiful book about powerful teaching. It’s all about retrieval practices, and how we can enable our students, empower our students, that retrieving is the way to self-test. And also the way I again, the way I frame it in my class is, we are going to grade you no matter what, you will be graded. But you can also grade yourself to see, are you able to remember the steps to that procedure? Or if, if you are going to be quizzed on a definition of a theory or some method, are you able to remember it accurately? And the more your practice comes, it’s gonna help with the, the accuracy, the speed. So, retrieval practice, this one tiny strategy and easy to do, free by the way. That’s how I advertise to my is free. You don’t need to pay any fees, right? You don’t need to subscribe, or you don’t need to go anywhere.

Sheila Tabanli [00:26:38]:

You can basically close the notes and try to remember, or try to write it from your memory.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:26:45]:

So I love this framing that you have for us, “the curse of expertise”. And I’ve mentioned in recent episodes that I’ve been wanting to refresh some of my learning, and some of it’s brand new to me, around, I’m taking some classes, I’m actually taking like four different classes at the same time, but using this website called Brilliant. It’s actually designed for K through 12 learners primarily. But I am certainly challenged by it, and many of the cases and, and the fun, the ones I’m not, the ones I’m not challenged by are just fun. So at least I can get my confidence back. But I keep thinking about, because I’m, I’m sort of the perfect student in this case, who I’m only doing it because I want to. Like it entirely has to rely on my intrinsic motivation because there’s no one telling me I have to do this.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:27:40]:

So, what I would love to know from you, is how you think through, and I realize sometimes you have to do this with colleagues, so you don’t always get it your way. But, but like how do you as an expert think through, what should someone have to memorize? And what would an expert easily go and reference? For example, the six different steps involved in optimization. So what’s the framework that you use for trying to discern for yourself and or with colleagues? Should this require total memorization? No consulting any external mind to begin with. And obviously, this is a gradation, right? This is not a all or nothing thing. But like what sorts of frameworks do you think of as you’re really trying to assess? Should a person have this memorized start to finish? Should this person just be familiar that this thing even exists?

Sheila Tabanli [00:28:40]:

Wow, beautiful question. You just reminded me of, in the RR2PG instructional framework that I developed, which stands for: reducing research to practice gap. And again, I want to give a shout-out to Dr. Oakley, she’s very passionate, and I met her virtually, she’s a beautiful human being. She labeled this chunking versus choking. So, in other words, the way that an expert, we chunked that information. So actually, it’s not six steps to me.

Sheila Tabanli [00:29:11]:

I’m able to retrieve it faster because I’m doing it. I love what I’m doing. And actually, none of my degrees are in math, but they are in computer science. But mathematics is something I really like to do, plus the teaching now you know, when you put these things together, this is what I love. And I think any expert would become an educator, or follow their passion just because. Like you said it right? Like you are taking classes from Brilliant website. Nobody’s asking you to do it, nobody’s mandating you to do it. This is something you have an intrinsic motivation.

Sheila Tabanli [00:29:50]:

You want to learn more, you want to grow more, you want to improve yourself. And unfortunately, it may not be the case with most, some of our students, we don’t know. But again, the chunking idea is when, as an expert, I chunk it. Therefore, this math content that may overwhelm some of our students, because it is really a lot. It’s a demanding subject, and I acknowledge it day one. This is a demanding course, but I never ever label it as a difficult course. Hard course is not doable. It is something doable, but it requires xyz, right? It requires persistence, not giving up.

Sheila Tabanli [00:30:32]:

And then I also, I also link it to perseverance in life, because it’s not only in the math class, but in life. The students, after they get their diploma, after they get a job, they are going to go for a promotion, or in their personal professional life, we are going to all go through struggles, obstacles, challenges. And I think mathematics gives us the base to come up with a procedure, come up with a solution to a problem. And I understand, it may not be a relevant problem, like optimization problem. It may not be relevant to some, but this is something I love, I enjoy. Again, going back to your question, that chunking idea, which means if I chunked at six steps all at once, and if that’s the way how I remember it, that’s the way how I store it, it’s going to be easier for me to retrieve it. And I will not be retrieving six isolated bunch of facts that are not related to another. But I would be retrieving something that is meaningful, that has an order, that has a structure.

Sheila Tabanli [00:31:40]:

And I think that is one of the things that separates the experts from the novices. And I believe that’s why for several students, mathematics is very overwhelming. Because again, the students, they may never learn how to study for mathematics effectively. By the way, on an anecdotal note, for Math 125, when I asked students a survey, a course survey, more than 80% of students said they never learned explicitly the effective ways of studying for mathematics. So, if someone doesn’t know it, I think we cannot hold them accountable from that. That’s the reason I strongly believe, and based on the data, that we can share it on your website also, that once students are given the tools, and being reminded that they bring assets. This is not a deficit model. It’s not about what they don’t know, but it’s about what they know, what they bring it,

Sheila Tabanli [00:32:41]:

and honestly, before coming to a higher ed classroom, they went through 13 years of K12 education. It’s a big achievement. I think by acknowledging these assets students bring into the classroom, and by giving them the tools, they are set to succeed. And as I mentioned, out of hundred students in a calculus class, I didn’t see anyone sitting down because they all wanted to succeed.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:33:10]:

Yeah, you’re presenting such a wonderful illustration of high challenge. This is not going to be easy, but having the support there too, that you are here to help draw out those assets, and to support them as they are exhibiting their persistence that you know is going to make a difference in this class. But it sounds like also, in others as well. Well, this is the time in the show in which we each get to share our recommendations. And before I share my two official ones, I did want to make a quick mention about another podcast I think listeners will enjoy. It’s called College Matters. It’s from the Chronicle of Higher Education. It’s a weekly show, and it’s a great resource if you want to know more about the news, and analysis, about colleges and universities.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:34:00]:

You’ll be able to hear sharp discussions with Chronicle journalists, which offer perspectives on the latest goings on, from the current administration, insights about how faculty and students are adapting to technological changes. And a few recent episodes that you might enjoy if you listen to Teaching in Higher Ed, are the ones about students trying to use AI in ethical ways. There was an episode about grade inflation and some of the issues there, and then some of the reading struggles that today’s students are experiencing. So I want to encourage you to check out College Matters, wherever it is you get your podcast, including this one. And as far as my recommendations for today, I wanted to share two of them. Listeners might remember that I had recently, not even that recently. Who knows what is recent, what is time? I recently, for me, switched to a new note-taking tool. It’s called Obsidian.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:35:01]:

That’s not actually what I’m going to recommend because I actually already recommended it. But I’ve mentioned a couple of times about a way of writing called Markdown. And Markdown is used it’s the way that you type, you know, words into Obsidian, but it’s used across a lot of things, and it’s basically a way of having plain text represent all sorts of different things, including plain text. How do you tell it that a word should be bold or italicized if a file only contains text? And it sounds complicated, and it’s totally not. So rather than me trying to tell you how easy it is, I want to recommend that you watch a video from Mike Schmits, which of course I’ll include in the show notes and the recommendations. It he it’s called: Obsidian Markdown made ridiculously easy. But I would tell you, even if you’re just curious about Markdown, it’s just super ridiculously easy. He lives up to that promise. It’s a short video and will get you going in no time, without making it seem intimidating, because it’s really not.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:35:59]:

So I just really think he made it nice and simple, because it is nice and simple to get started. So that’s my first recommendation and my second one; I’ve recommended so many pieces before from Mark Watkins, and I would like to do it once again. He had a wonderful piece called “What We Give Up When We Let AI Decide”. And one of the things, one of the headings that really struck me, I just want to read his words here: Efficiency isn’t always a desirable means to an end. And he reflects so powerfully, I can’t even do his words justice.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:36:36]:

But just how we’re chasing after AI so it can make us more efficient. And in this case, he mentions about grading, but is efficiency in our grading actually what we’re intending? Or are there some unintended consequences? And I’d encourage you to look at the end. He lists 10 scenarios at the end of this piece of writing, about when AI grading arrives, 10 scenarios to consider. And I have to tell you, some of these are incredibly haunting. I hope that we really read them. I hope we talk about them with colleagues, and I hope we really think about what happens to us when we chase efficiency without really thinking about what happens as a result of that.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:37:20]:

I have strong opinions, but this is probably 17 episodes in one piece of writing from Mark. So I’m going to pass it over to Sheila before I get myself into too much trouble here, and take us off on too many tangents. But I want to definitely close our episode, Sheila, with whatever it is that you have to recommend.

Sheila Tabanli [00:37:37]:

So I’d like to recommend anyone who wants to understand how students feel or experience what they experience in a college setting, to be a student for a day. So it doesn’t mean go and take music classes or art classes, but this is based on an experience that I had. There was a day that during fall 2025, I was facilitating an honors colloquium. This is an interdisciplinary honors colloquium. And we had three different guests. And all the three different guests are originally from different countries, and they have different type of accents, and they had different expertise. After that honors colloquium facilitation, that I was the facilitator for that colloquium for my group of students. Then I went to a classroom to observe a colleague. And this student, she’s this colleague, she’s originally from China.

Sheila Tabanli [00:38:39]:

And the student had, the colleague had a learning assistant also from another country. And after that, I went to another classroom for peer observation. And this faculty is originally from India. So during the same day, just like a student who might be taking these courses, who might be experiencing all these different teaching styles, accents, different expertise, different way of interacting with human beings. My point is, our students are resilient. They bring lots of assets to the classroom. So let’s talk about what they bring in a positive way. Instead of saying they are lacking this, they don’t know how to do this, or blaming the systems, let’s focus on the assets, the strengths our students bring.

Sheila Tabanli [00:39:36]:

And I think the best way to understand, really understand it, really comprehend it, and feel it is to be in the shoes of a student for a day. It was very eye-opening for me.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:39:49]:

That is so wonderful. Thank you so much. You’re reminding me of an episode from long ago. I will go find the show note, but where a guy actually was a student for an entire year, which I can’t even imagine. I’m gonna have to follow up and see how that guy is, how that guy is doing, but how powerful for you. Well, thank you so much for that reminder of how powerful it can be when we put ourselves in the shoes of a learner, and a novice learner at that, and look at all the different things they might be exposed to, and ways to bring their assets into that experience. It’s been such a delight to get to talk with you today. Thank you so much for coming on Teaching in Higher Ed.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:40:26]:

I’ve really enjoyed our conversation, and have lots of links to include in the show notes so people can follow up and learn more about you, and your work as well as the many people that you’ve profiled, and shared about their work here today.

Sheila Tabanli [00:40:39]:

Thank you for having me, Bonni, and thank you for sharing your passion with everyone.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:40:47]:

Thanks once again to Sheila Tabanli for joining me on today’s episode of Teaching in Higher Ed. Today’s episode was produced by me, Bonni Stachowiak. It was edited by the ever-talented Andrew Kroeger. If you’ve been listening for a while, and have yet to rate the show or review it on whatever service it is you listen to it on, I’d love to have you do that. It just helps other people be able to discover the show. Thank you so much for listening, and I’ll see you next time on Teaching in Higher Ed.