Bonni: [00:00:00] Today on episode number 161 of the Teaching in Higher Ed podcast, Teresa Chahine shares about teaching social entrepreneurship in two worlds.

Production Credit: [00:00:13] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Bonni: [00:00:23] Welcome to this episode of Teaching in Higher Ed. I am Bonni Stachowiak and this is the space where we explore the art and science has been more effective at facilitating learning. We also share ways to improve our personal productivity so we can have more peace in our lives and be even more present for our students.

Bonni: [00:00:50] I’m pleased to be welcoming to the show today Dr. Teresa Chahine. She is the author of “Introduction to Social Entrepreneurship,” a comprehensive how to guide based on her course at Harvard University. Dr. Chahine is the social entrepreneurship program leader at Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health, Center for Health and the Global Environment. She divides her time between Boston and Beirut, where she helped launch a venture philanthropy organization supporting social entrepreneurs serving in marginalized communities. Teresa, welcome to Teaching in Higher Ed.

Teresa: [00:01:31] Thank you so much Bonni. Thanks for having me.

Bonni: [00:01:33] You have such a unique background and I just read your bio of course and I know that that only just skims the surface. I wonder if you could talk a little bit about how you first ended up getting into teaching and a little bit about your role.

Teresa: [00:01:51] Sure. Actually that’s a fun question because teaching is the one thing that I never thought I would end up doing when I graduated. I went back to school for my Doctor of Science degree in Public Health thinking that my goal afterwards was to get into public health practice. At that time I was working on a project with the UNFPA in the Ministry of Social Affairs in Lebanon. And my plan was always to get my doctorate degree, go back, and be the regional director or something like that.

Teresa: [00:02:19] And I always felt I don’t want to teach because I was under the assumption that teaching is just passing on knowledge. And the reason that I actually began teaching is that there were so many questions that I still felt I needed to figure out after I finished school. And even though I did go back to practice public health, I wanted to teach in order to learn.

Teresa: [00:02:40] And that’s why I ended up going back and creating a course in my school at my alma mater called introduction to social entrepreneurship because I ended up venturing into this unknown field, or at least unknown to me, of social entrepreneurship. And I needed an anchor, an academic setting, to figure things out. So in my case, it’s definitely teaching to learn.

Bonni: [00:03:03] Talk a bit about how your curiosity then first got picked by social entrepreneurship. Do you remember when you first heard about that and when you first began to become interested and have your curiosity piqued?

Teresa: [00:03:17] I remember exactly when. So in my last year of a five year doctoral program, I went back to Lebanon and met with the team at the UNFPA that I had been working with. And they said oh we’re so happy to have you back, we’re going to send you to this refugee camp and you’re going to build community. And I found myself feeling so disillusioned and thinking the way my brain works right now after five years of grad school, I don’t think I can go back and do the same thing.

Teresa: [00:03:47] I feel like a lot of the international development projects we have here spend decades and millions of dollars and we still can’t tell whether they’ve had an impact. And so I started thinking about what might be some ways to have a more direct impact where I can actually experience and measure the impact of my work in my lifetime? And so I started sharing my ideas with people. And they responded by saying “yeah this is a thing. It exists. It’s called social entrepreneurship.” And so that’s when it decided OK then, that’s the field that I want to go into.

Bonni: [00:04:21] And that term has really begun to evolve. I mean this is still a relatively new area of study and a relatively new area of growth. Could you talk a little bit about some of the trends that are kind of going on now and what’s kind of emerging in that field?

Teresa: [00:04:40] Definitely. So just to start off with a definition for the listeners who aren’t familiar with it. Social entrepreneurship is basically the act of developing new products, services, or methods that serve a social purpose, that serve to reduce disparities and that can be done in a financially feasible way.

Teresa: [00:05:02] That doesn’t mean that they have to be for profit or nonprofit, but there’s some form of viability and sustainability to have some kind of innovation in that they may be more effective than previous methods that we’ve tried that build on previous evidence in tackling social challenges, and that hopefully could potentially be replicable or scalable so that you’re not just helping one person but that you’re actually transforming systems and challenging the status quo. And some might go so far as to say creating new equilibria.

Teresa: [00:05:35] So to give you an example of the ideas I started having in grad school and why people pointed me the way of social entrepreneurship, I was thinking about joining the World Bank and then I started thinking “well what if instead of governments giving money to governments, citizens could support citizens in development projects around the world?” Like if there’s something I want to fix in my home country of Lebanon, I could post it on a web site, ask people to pitch in and support me from around the world, and get in there and roll up my sleeves and get my hands dirty and get it done.

Teresa: [00:06:05] And so when I started sharing these ideas with people, they pointed me in the way of existing organizations that were applying similar methods. And a great example of that is Kiva, which most people have heard of by now. I think it was started in 2004. Kiva basically is an online lending platform where you might have someone living in poverty in rural Uganda who wants to start a small mom and pop shop and generate income for her family. And she doesn’t have the capital to start that. So you can have a random person, let’s say a Boston Red Sox fan was $25 in their savings account and they can lend that $25 to the lady in Uganda, get it back with- Kiva actually adjusts for interest. So the lady in Boston is not losing anything. Meanwhile these $25 is being put to good use by the lady in Uganda. She’s starting her shop. She’s making money. And she’s returning the loan.

Teresa: [00:07:06] And meanwhile her business is growing, her kids are in school, and she’s earning income for her family. And the lender in Boston, this is still the money that she has saved in the bank, it’s just been put to good use in the meantime. So that’s just one of the early examples of social entrepreneurship. And the underlying premise is that we’ve reached an age where we do have the cumulative resources and knowledge to really wipe the most pressing social challenges we face off the face of this earth. It’s just that we need to mobilize them in an entrepreneurial way to kind of hack social problems.

Bonni: [00:07:44] In what ways when you introduce these ideas in Beirut do you embrace the cultural values there? And in what ways do they challenge the cultural values there? And then if you would talk the same thing about when you introduce them in Boston in what ways does the culture just really fit well with that and in what ways does it stretch the culture and what the cultural norms are?

Teresa: [00:08:10] That is such a great question. In Beirut, people think of themselves as entrepreneurial. Lebanese people pride themselves as being descended from the Phoenicians and we’ve always been entrepreneurs and everywhere we go around the world we’re entrepreneurial. So the idea of being entrepreneurial definitely resonates with people. However, there’s definitely a mental barrier between traditional charity and traditional commerce.

Teresa: [00:08:37] So in Lebanon people are highly philanthropic. They help others in their village who can’t pay their school tuition, who can’t afford medications, etc. And they’re highly entrepreneurial in a traditionally commercial way that often times may have adverse environmental and social repercussions in order to make profit.

Teresa: [00:09:00] And so the social entrepreneurship is everything that lies in between traditional charity and commerce. And so it’s been hard to really break that mental barrier and encourage people- sticking to the micro-lending example I approached, so I started this organization in Lebanon called Alfanar Lebanon. And it’s a venture philanthropy organization. It was originally founded in 2004 by an Arab banker in London who started in Egypt.

Teresa: [00:09:29] And when I was recruited to launch it in Lebanon, I approached a bank here for corporate partnership and to see if they would like to do any corporate philanthropy. And I pitched a micro-finance venture to them, similar to the one I just described with Kiva. There’s actually a group of ladies in a refugee camp in Lebanon that have formed a non-governmental organization that gives micro loans for individual use.

Teresa: [00:09:55] So this lady in the bank had this traditional charity mentality, her response to me was “how could I accept to take money back from someone? These poor people, I should just just give them money and not ask for money back from them.” And that kind of attitude is actually counterproductive because if you’re giving people money, you’re not actually changing the status quo, you’re helping them endure the status quo.

Teresa: [00:10:24] But the effect of microloans is that it provides opportunities for them to raise their standard of living. And so you’re actually changing the equilibrium. And that’s the mental barrier that I’ve been struggling to bridge in Lebanon.

Teresa: [00:10:42] So there have been some positive reactions to the idea of social entrepreneurship. And there have been more challenging reactions.

Teresa: [00:10:51] Yeah it’s very interesting because one of the main driving factors behind my starting this social entrepreneurship course at my alma mater is that I felt that the public health curriculum was really geared towards making us experts in the problem.

Teresa: [00:11:09] So we were being trained to analyze the problem. And we would talk about it, and write about, and publish about it. But we spent much less time talking about solutions. And I feel that most people who go into a field like public health are going in there to make a difference. And that’s what motivated me to create this course because I think that public health students need the acumen and the creative confidence to say “yes I am the expert in the problem but that’s not my goal in life. That’s my starting point. It’s a means to an end. My goal is to solve it. And I have the tools and the skill set to solve it. And I can design and test and implement and evaluate interventions that are financially feasible and effective and potentially applicable.”.

Teresa: [00:11:55] And so that traditional public health training was a barrier, but a lot of people were thinking like I was and it was actually well received. It came at a time around the centennial of public health education.

Teresa: [00:12:10] So I pitched the course in 2012, the same year I launched at Alfanar Lebannon. And in 2013 it was the 100 year anniversary of public health education and we were really evaluating what are the competencies that need to be produced in public health students. And and why we need to be more action oriented in our curricula.

Bonni: [00:12:33] Did the quest to go and analyze what competencies are needed go anywhere? Is there somewhere online that we could link to that shows a little bit of that brainstorming? Or was just more of a conversation?

Teresa: [00:12:46] Yes, absolutely. It was a very formal initiative launched by the Harvard School of Public Health I participated in. At the time, I was the chair of the alumni committee for feedback and assessment and we worked very closely with the school. We had a centennial symposium where the dean shared the results. And we then actually- I shouldn’t say we, I don’t take any credit for this, but the school transformed the curriculum around that time, created a Doctor of Public Health Practice for students who wanted to get a doctoral degree but not in order to research, in order to practice.

Teresa: [00:13:25] I definitely would have done that degree if it had existed when I went back to school in 2005. And there were changes made to the Masters of Public Health to make it longer also and to develop a core set of core competencies that every single person graduating from the school would have regardless of their program, degree, or departments.

Bonni: [00:13:49] Yeah I’d love to link to that all. I’ll jot you an email to ask for it because that would be really interesting. I always like to see what kinds of competencies people are establishing in their programs and especially then how they change over time. And speaking of changing over time, I wonder if you’d reflect for a bit on- you shared that when you were in school, it sounded like it was all a bit too theoretical for you and a little bit too focused on the problem, but you wanted to go start actually getting your hands dirty and being part of a solution.

Bonni: [00:14:24] Can you talk a little bit more about how that informs your teaching today, you teaching approaches? And especially, I always love to hear about failures that you made along the way where you maybe had the heart to do something, but it didn’t quite turn out the way you had hoped. And then what you were able to gain from those experiences.

Teresa: [00:14:44] OK sure. So definitely my practice does it and for my teaching and the sense that I bring into the classrooms the lessons I learned at Alfanar and the struggles that the social entrepreneurs we work with face. And at the same time, I bring to the ground here in Lebanon the frameworks and tools and concepts that we are creating at Harvard to help structure the work of the social entrepreneurs.

Teresa: [00:15:13] So one example is social franchising. I had a social entrepreneur a few years ago ask me “let’s think about social franchising as an option to replicate my social enterprise, what would that look like?” No one in the Arab countries that I know of has done social franchising. And for our listeners who aren’t familiar with this term, it’s very similar to commercial franchising like a McDonald’s or whatever. But more complicated because you’re franchising a social venture where the bottom line is social impact and social change. And the finances are a means to an end. So you can’t just have any business person franchise it. You need an organization with a track record, with an aligned mission, where you can provide the structure and the branding and the methodology to ensure consistency and at the same time give them the space to contextualize and be flexible to meet the local context and needs.

Teresa: [00:16:06] So I had a student in my social entrepreneurship class at Harvard take the lead on a literature review. And we produced a peer reviewed publication that provided a seven step framework for social franchising, which we’re now applying here and my work in Lebanon. And I hope others will too because they can read about it in the peer reviewed journal article.

Teresa: [00:16:27] So I think that teaching and practice and research all inform each other. And let’s see let me think of a fun failure to share. So do you mean failure in teaching?

Bonni: [00:16:39] Oh any, it could be anything certainly. Because you do have such- and I’m going to use the word idealistic but I mean it in a complimentary way, I mean so many times someone being idealistic is sometimes that’s lauded as an insult but I mean you have a wonderful heart for wanting to make a difference, I know that’s also something that’s overused but then that gets messy.

Bonni: [00:17:04] And one of the things that came up on a prior episode was Amy Collier she and a colleague of hers, Jen, they came up with this term not yetness when you’re working in this field, it just gets so messy. I mean we have a wonderful ideal, we have what we know it should look like, but then we’re coordinating with people, and people are complex and don’t quite work as predictable as we might like them to. And not only are you working with people, but you’re working cross-culturally too which just only adds to the complexity. So I’m sure things have gotten messy. Maybe you can’t think of a failure, but you can think of some of them got real messy.

Teresa: [00:17:44] Things have definitely gotten messy. And I think that because I actually expect failure as data, maybe I don’t think of it as failure in the way someone else would, I think about it as data to inform an iteration. So probably every day I experience failure because nothing ever turns out the way you think it’s going to, especially in Lebanon.

Teresa: [00:18:06] So as an example we had this food truck that we wanted to launch for this women’s catering venture in a refugee camp in Lebanon. And the reason we see that this catering venture is because women wanted to work to produce income for their families and they felt that the food industry in Lebanon is one of the few industries, the low cost food industry, that no matter how bad the social, economic, and political situation is, people need to eat. So they felt that cooking is something that they enjoyed doing, that brought them joy, that there is a market for.

Teresa: [00:18:42] And so we worked with them to create this catering company called Soufra which means feast in Arabic. And they didn’t get enough orders at first to break even. And so we were brainstorming and business planning and thinking about how we could increase the volume of orders. And maybe instead of making it passive where they are waiting for orders, we can make it proactive where they get out there and people can see their food, and smell it, and come buy it. And so one of our team members at Alfanar, actually it was the executive director who suggested this thought what about a food truck?

Teresa: [00:19:19] You know we’ve seen movies like Chef and we’ve seen food trucks in cities all around the world. We don’t have them- at the time, there weren’t many in Lebanon but it’s picking up now. And these ladies really at first there were kind of questioning the idea like oh you mean we’d have to leave the camp? And who would drive the truck? What if it broke down? And is it sanitary? Are you sure? So it was definitely a big question mark.

Teresa: [00:19:40] But then as we worked on it and as we crunched the numbers and thought about it conceptually, we realized this might actually be able to work. And so we did a huge crowdfunding campaign on Kickstarter. It gained a lot of media attention. And we raised more money than we asked for. And then it just took forever to make the truck happen. It was one obstacle after the other. First, the Ministry of Social Affairs would not sign to give this nonprofit a license to operate a commercial vehicle.

Teresa: [00:20:13] Then, we wanted to register a for profit company so that we wouldn’t need the signature of Ministry of Social Affairs. And then we couldn’t register it because they didn’t own the lease of their office, you can’t own land in a refugee camp. So they couldn’t register a for profit company, they had to go rent space outside the refugee camp. And then they actually went to buy the truck and the paperwork was not in place.

Teresa: [00:20:37] So it was definitely one string of obstacles after the other. And there were so many times that we wanted to give up. But it became to mean a lot more than just a food truck. It became a symbol of all the barriers against social mobility in this country and against these women being able to provide a livelihood for their family.

Teresa: [00:21:02] And so with a lot of support, pro bono support from lawyers. We had a social justice film maker named Thomas Morgan who partnered with Susan Sarandon as executive producer. They’re making a movie about this called Soufra. And he spent two years coming to Lebanon and supporting with Alfanar support, we finally managed to make the food truck happen.

Teresa: [00:21:22] And I think that you never know when you can call it a success and when you can call it a failure because even the food truck, it’s not a success yet. And until it’s out there and we’re getting the orders and we’re generating income and these women’s lives are actually changing.

Teresa: [00:21:39] So honestly, I think maybe that was a long winded story but it’s literally the story of my life. And it’s just a way to say that success and failure go hand-in-hand together. It’s not black and white on what’s a success and what’s a failure. It’s all just data. You tried something, you got results. It might be null results. It might be positive results. It feeds into your equation of what works and what doesn’t. And you just keep iterating until you get the results you want.

Bonni: [00:22:07] I’m hearing this fascinating paradox from you as you share your stories because it is like you both have patience and a complete lack of patience all at the same time. Does that make any sense to you?

Teresa: [00:22:19] That’s a good way to put it. There’s definitely this restlessness, like we need to get results. But also there has to be an openness in terms of you start with a definition of success that you’re working towards but you have to be open to the unknown. You don’t know what it’s going to turn out like.

Teresa: [00:22:36] And most of the time it turns out to be something completely different. So you just have to be open to receiving data about and just trying things and seeing what works and what doesn’t. If you call it a failure, then you’re just going to be discouraged all the time.

Teresa: [00:22:52] So I guess my message is to just embrace failure as part of the process. And for someone who has been trained as a scientist, the way I have, I think of social entrepreneurship as just applying the scientific method to solving social problems. So you form a hypothesis, you test it, you collect data, you analyze the results, and then you keep iterating. And that’s really what social entrepreneurship is.

Bonni: [00:23:16] Talk about your book and in what way it helped to you or did not help you reflect on your own practice.

Teresa: [00:23:25] It definitely helped me. So I decided to create a textbook out of my course at Harvard. The idea was A. I didn’t have a consolidated resource for my students. I had to dig things up as I went along. And B. I figured why does everyone have to start from scratch just because I did? Let me put this down on paper and then it will make it easier and more fun for others to start courses on social entrepreneurship around the world.

Teresa: [00:23:52] And so at first the idea was for each week in my course to become a chapter. And then the book would be seven or eight chapters because my course, depending on the semester, is seven or eight weeks. It’s a quarter. A half semester. It actually turned out that when you put things down on paper, you end up going into detail much more. And so each week turned into two chapters and now it’s a 13 chapter book, which is ideal for a full semester.

Teresa: [00:24:19] And definitely it was a case of me having to gain knowledge and figure things out as I went along. Because when you’re documenting something in writing, there’s less room for error. And so what I decided to do is co-create the book. I included an interview in each chapter with a leading social entrepreneur from around the world. I made sure to include women and men, people from all different parts of the world and all different sectors. And I included existing tools and resources that people were using in existing organizations that supported social entrepreneurs.

Teresa: [00:24:55] So if you read the preface, which actually anyone can read on Amazon for free, you just click on look inside. I love it when Amazon does that and shares free content. So if you read the preface, it says I did not invent anything in this book. I am just the big nerd who sat down and typed it all out. So this was all here before me. I just put it together in a framework that helped my sanity in terms of organizing my thoughts and developing, and evaluating, and implementing social ventures.

Teresa: [00:25:28] And it’s been very helpful for my course and my students, but more importantly, it’s been helpful for my practice. And it’s been helpful in thinking beyond social enterprises which are small social ventures because social entrepreneurship is about much more than starting a new venture.

Teresa: [00:25:45] You could work in a government agency, or in a huge corporation, or you could be a volunteer without a job, and you could formulate and implement an initiative that creates social change without forming a new company. So I always try to hammer that message home to my students, readers, and listeners that social entrepreneurship is not just new ventures. It’s thinking entrepreneurially about solving social challenges.

Teresa: [00:26:11] And there are ways that you could increase your odds of success, your chances of making that change more in-depth and long lasting by applying these existing tools and frameworks to help you evaluate whether it’ll work or not.

Teresa: [00:26:27] One example, just to be concrete, is the theory of change which is a framework to think about what is it about your proposed activity that makes you think it’s actually going to cause the effect that you want it to and actually change this challenge? So it’s just a way to test the underlying assumptions and make sure that this work is going to cause this outcome. And to try to think about the unintended consequences also that you might want to avoid.

Bonni: [00:26:57] I’m really intrigued by your discussion on how you put the book together. And it’s because it’s it’s paralleling something that I just read last night. I’m in the middle of reading Stephen Brookfield’s Becoming a Critically Reflective Teacher. And he was reporting on someone else’s research, unfortunately I don’t have that person’s name in front of me because it was late last night. That’s my excuse.

Bonni: [00:27:19] But he was talking about if you- one of the things that we’ve talked about on the show before is to- and it’s been showing up a lot on Twitter and in the blogosphere is going through your syllabus and do you only have textbooks by old white guys? Right. And one of the things he talked about is that sometimes what he would try to do, and what others would try to do to remedy that is to then add into the mix people of color, women, etc. but that what that does is actually then make the dominant ideology even more powerful.

Bonni: [00:27:58] If you’re just adding that to the mix, you’re not actually doing the change that you need to make.

Teresa: [00:28:05] Interesting.

Bonni: [00:28:05] And so you did that from the ground up with your book, which is wonderful. So then when people would go to implement it, they’re not going to have to deal with this problem of just trying to mix in a few other authors that may negate or add some literal color to this main primary author.

Bonni: [00:28:25] But anyway, he was just talking a little bit about the dangers of doing that and that is something I went oh gosh. Like I already knew I hadn’t gone far enough in my own teaching and the readings that I assign. And that added even more challenge to my thinking I’m going to definitely be carrying that with me outside of reading his book. So that’s really interesting. There was some initiative I know you want to share about before we get to the recommendations segment. And you have some big news that had come out. Do you want to share a little bit about that before we do?

Teresa: [00:28:55] Yes. Thank you for giving you this opportunity. So we’ve basically just launched a campaign at Alfanar, my organization. And the goal of the campaign is to raise awareness and funds for social entrepreneurs in the Arab countries. Because this is a growing field. And because this is a part of the world where we need social entrepreneurs so much. We have increasingly pressing social challenges. We’ve created this campaign where anyone can get involved and it goes back to that message I was saying earlier, you don’t have to start your own venture to make a difference.

Teresa: [00:29:30] Whatever your job is, whoever you are, you can get involved in an innovative way in social innovation. And one way to do that is by supporting existing entrepreneurs. So I’d love to invite our listeners to visit our website at Alfanar.org/campaign. Read about the amazing social entrepreneurs that we support and get involved in any way that resonates with you.

Bonni: [00:30:01] That it’s fantastic. Thank you so much and it’s so energizing to talk to you and this is the time in this show where we’re going to talk about recommendations. The first one I have is if people want to hear more from you, you were actually on Coaching for Leaders, which is my husband’s podcast, and that episode is 292: How to Solve a Really Big Problem. And that’s when I first heard your voice and learned a bit about you. And so people could go listen to that episode and I’m going to be linking to that in the shownotes and that will be teachinginhighered.com/161. You can see all the links to the things that we’re talking about on this show including the food truck film and the length that you just mentioned to the campaign. So that’s my first recommendation is to go take a listen if you want to hear more about Teresa’s work.

Bonni: [00:30:52] And then I want to read a blog post from Seth Godin. And for people who may not be familiar with him, he is a marketer and has always his whole career been kind of pushing the edge and thinking differently about things. He wrote a book called Purple Cow: Transform your business by being remarkable. It’s from 2003. That’s how I first remember him. But he’s written many many books since then. He’s a prolific writer. And this is the post that he wrote called Like Riding a Bike. Again this is by Seth Godin.

Bonni: [00:31:37] “People talk about bike riding when they want to remind us that some things once learned are not forgotten. What they don’t mention is how we learned. No one learns to ride a bike from a book, or even a video. You learn by doing it. Actually, by not doing it. You learn by doing it wrong, by falling off, by getting back on, by doing it again. P.S. this approach works for lots of things, not just bikes. Most things, in fact.”

Teresa: [00:32:09] Oh I love it. Thank you Bonni. That’s exactly what I was saying about failures is that that’s actually the pathway. Thank you for sharing that.

Bonni: [00:32:16] Oh you’re welcome. Now I am going to pass it over to you now to see what you have to recommend to us today.

Teresa: [00:32:21] OK. Actually what I’m reading these days is Getting Beyond Better. And it’s a book that came out while I was busy with my head down writing my own book, so I never got to read it. It’s also by a leader in the field of practice of social entrepreneurship, Sally Osrberg of the school’s Center and Roger Martin.

Teresa: [00:32:41] And I think it’s a great compliment to my textbook introduction to social entrepreneurship with many of the same messages using different and complementary stories. So I’m enjoying it very much and learning a lot. It always helps to think about different perspectives to expand, to get out of your bubble and expand your definitions and your perspectives. So I hope that listeners will check out both. It’s been very inspiring to read this book in parallel with mine.

Bonni: [00:33:10] It sounds wonderful. I’ll definitely link to that in the show notes and I’m just so appreciative of your time for investing in the Teaching in Higher Ed community and for sharing all your experiences. I’m definitely going to be thinking about how you don’t even call it failure, but you talked about restlessness and openness and that is going to be a big thing I’m going to be reflecting on today and beyond.

Teresa: [00:33:32] And messiness. Yeah you called it messiness. I like that. Just embrace the messiness.

Bonni: [00:33:36] Thank you so much for your time and for being on the show.

Teresa: [00:33:40] Thank you Bonni.

Bonni: [00:33:41] Thanks once again to Teresa Chahine. What an honor it’s been to talk to you today for the podcast. Your passion really is infectious and we really appreciate hearing about social entrepreneurship.

Bonni: [00:33:55] If people want to learn more about this episode you can go to teachinginhighered.com/161. And that’s where you can access the show links.

Bonni: [00:34:04] If you’d like more regular communication, you’re welcome to sign up for the weekly update and that you can subscribe to at teachinginhighered.com/subscribe. And you’ll get just a single e-mail each week with the showboats included as well as an article about teaching or productivity written by me. Thanks so much for listening and we’ll see you next time.

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