Dave: [00:00:00] Bonni and I discuss rethinking assessment and other reflections on the Lilly Conference on this episode of the Teaching in Higher Ed podcast.

Production Credit: [00:00:09] Produced by Innovate Learning maximizing human potential.

Bonni: [00:00:18] Welcome to this episode of teaching in higher ed. This is the space where we explore the art and science of being more effective at facilitating learning. We also share ways to increase our productivity so we can have more peace in our lives and be even more present for our students.

Dave: [00:00:46] Hi there it’s Dave Stachowiak and I am back for another episode with Bonni Stachowiak. Hello Bonni.

Bonni: [00:00:52] Hi Dave.

Dave: [00:00:53] I’m crashing your party here and jumping in is the host for a session or at least a co-host.

Bonni: [00:00:59] Yes, I was going to say,”You don’t have the intro memorized, I see.” So I had to. I’m sitting across the desk from you. I’m laughing because we just recorded your podcast and now we have switched sides of the desk and it’s like if I get in the car and try to drive the car with your settings of the mirrors and the seats and all that and forget to change it. That’s what it feels like right now because it’s all Caddy Wampus from what I’m used to but I’m so glad to be sitting across from you we actually have not seen much of each other the last couple of weeks we’ve been like two ships passing in the night.

Dave: [00:01:29] I’m just still impressed that you worked in the word Caddy Wampus into an intro of a podcast. I’m trying to figure out how you can use that word later today. But here we are. And you were not here speaking of being present last week very much because you were at the Lilly Conference.

Bonni: [00:01:43] That’s true. I attended the Lilly Conference which is a teaching conference that is put on all over the country. There are five or so different locations where the Lilly Conference is put on and this one the director is Todd Zakrasek who has been on this show a few times actually before and it was lovely to see him and also to get to see another person who’s been on the show a couple of times now and that is Stephen Brookfield.

Dave: [00:02:08] So how was the conference.

Bonni: [00:02:09] Oh it was an excellent conference. All kinds of people that either I got to reconnect with because I had met them previously or met for the first time or there was a little funny thing occasionally happens where someone listens to the show a lot and then they feel because one I went up they do this little icebreaker thing. And so I went up and talked to this woman she’s that your voice sounds so familiar to me. I can’t place it. And then she looked at my name. Oh my gosh it’s you! When the session was over. She wanted to take a picture with me in case anyone’s interested. I don’t love having my picture taken so I was like OK cringing. OK. Here we go.

Bonni: [00:02:50] And then later on she was with another man and he’s holding his cell phone like oh there she is there’s And I was like OK another picture. And he didn’t want a picture he just wanted to know how to download the show. He didn’t even really know he was just happy to.

Dave: [00:03:07] You know both of them are probably listening right now and they’re thinking that that’s he’s such a nice lady.

Bonni: [00:03:13] Well it was nice to meet them and nice to meet other people. I just love because this show is all about talking to people about things I’m so passionate about so whenever you get to meet someone that’s fun but they’re just cute because sometimes they’re a little like I don’t know like I was when we actually went to the podcasting conference. You and Dave last year and that was when I got to see Alex Blumberg and you were like go talk to him! I cant do it. I just stood about 15 feet from him in awe of all that he is.

Dave: [00:03:47] I normally try to not to be controlling of you but I really was trying to get you to talk to him because I know how much you wanted to and Alex if you’re listening, Bonni would like to say hi.

Bonni: [00:03:54] Yeah. Yeah I’m sure he is listening.

Bonni: [00:03:57] Probably he would not listen to Teaching in Higher Ed. but there was a lot of other things. On a serious note that happened at this conference. For those who are you said a little bit about the Lilly Conference but you’ve had Todd Zakrajsek and some of the folks on the show before who have been at this conference. Why did you decide to go and what were you there to do?

Bonni: [00:04:15] Well my colleague Naomi and I we gave a presentation on rethinking assessment for greater agency and relevance. And so that was I think it was her first academic conference I think it was her first time. That’s not a discipline specific conference but I think it was her first time presenting. I’m not positive sorry Naomi forget that. But she is certainly a consummate professional. She designed our PowerPoint on a PowerPoint keynote but she designed the slide deck and she designed this amazing hand out which was really just a way for people to reflect on how they can put into practice what we discussed. And she is such a gifted designer and a gifted teacher it was really wonderful to collaborate with her so that was fun.

Dave: [00:04:58] She’s also the genius behind the Teaching in Higher Ed. website. That new design too.

Bonni: [00:05:02] If you scroll all the way down to the bottom of the Web site you’ll see a link to over to her Web site which actually just recently redesigned her Web site to a portfolio up there and everything about we we were happy to get to share about this and actually Dave I thought I’d share a little bit about what we what we shared on assessment although maybe one of these days I’ll even get Naomi to come on the show. But we talked about really agency as the power to act and how I actually shared a story about Hannah our daughter. And as you well know Dave she just turned 3 a couple weeks ago and it’s like someone woke her up that morning and said This is your time to demand agency.

Dave: [00:05:46] Really did help in that morning too.

Bonni: [00:05:48] And it’s interesting because you think about you can get into where you were you and I don’t ever act on decisions say ever but once in a blue moon to try to have one of them not run in the street you might physically force them to stay out of the street. But we really think consciously about trying to have that be practically never that we physically force them to either do something or not do something. And our exception is safety. And I think we’ve that we’ve managed to manage to hit that mark.

Dave: [00:06:18] I just am having this flashback to getting smoothies for the kids this morning after articular doctor’s appointment. And both of our kids crawling up onto the shelves with the place and physically pulling means. I suppose there’s an argument to be made there that was probably the appropriate decision.

Bonni: [00:06:34] Another bad trip to the smoothie place because I don’t know that we should share on air what happened the last time you took them.

Dave: [00:06:40] We haven’t had good luck at smoothy places although it’s very unusual. Normally we are very good when we visit other places. But the last week has not been great.

Bonni: [00:06:47] So in terms of little kids when you’re talking about three year olds you generally aren’t going to have very positive experiences if you tried to for example force them to brush their teeth. You and I have not tried that. I’m guessing that wouldn’t it’s for a good result. There’s that expression about if you wrestle with the pig, both of you end up dirty and some something like that. Yeah yeah. So I haven’t tried that with him about what we have found really works is to give her a choice. Did you want to use the Elsa toothbrush or did you want to use the Paw Patrol toothbrush and that instantly changes the conversation. And if she is I want to get dressed it becomes less about you have to get dressed and more about well did you want to wear this and in her case paw patrol shirt or this other paw patrol shirt. Or maybe another pot patrol shirt. Yeah. So giving her choices really helps. And I certainly would hope it would never sound like I was comparing our 3 year old daughter to my students.

Bonni: [00:07:44] But let me compare my students to myself and say I am hugely more more motivated when I have autonomy when I have freedom and especially in my own learning to have that kind of agency to be able to explore those things that for me are most interesting.

Bonni: [00:08:02] And Josh Eyler when he was back on the show Josh Eyler is the director of the center for teaching excellence at Rice University. He and I got to have a conversation Gosh it must have been more than a year ago about our favorite Pixar movies and which ones we thought had really good things to say about teaching. And in that episode he said curiosity is one of our most deeply rooted mechanisms by which we learn. And I say he’s absolutely so spot on. And we also talked a little bit about what assessment is and how there is we tend to think of assessment of just at the end. Did they get it or do they not get it. But there’s more formative assessments that happen throughout the learning process where we can gauge not just are the students comprehending it but is there something that we need to be altering in our own teaching process in order to meet them where they are.

Bonni: [00:08:56] There can be interim assessment methods where we’re kind of I mean you might think of it like a midterm or something like that just checking in midway through and then summative toward the end. And we came up with a taxonomy and all of this will be available in the show so you can go look at the slides that Naomi designed it’s going to be at teachinginhighered.com/LillyConn17 but again we’ll put a link to that in today’s show notes. But looking at the different degrees of agency because oftentimes when we start talking about having more agency in assessment methods it starts to immediately go Oh wait a minute that sounds hard.

Bonni: [00:09:39] And the fact is that sometimes it can be harder upfront to set things up but you might actually find it’s even maybe easier along the way because you don’t have to fight so much against apathy because people you really if you help ignite their curiosity and give them that autonomy you might be able to fuel past some more difficult challenges you might otherwise encounter. And both Naomi and I believe that even though we may encounter these difficulties that ultimately it’s so worth that it’s so worth it to be able to do that. So we looked at different degrees of agency though because we’d want to be able to say well can we just dip our toe and try it a little bit. And then there’s some really extreme examples which actually go beyond anything I have ever tried. But we invited we invited I say I put air quotes. We invited some of the past podcast guests on to share about some of these more extreme methods of assessments. And Dave I don’t know if you remember Linda Nilson but she was on and she talked about something called specifications grading do you remember that from long ago?

Dave: [00:10:45] I recognize her name but I’m not sure I recognize the topic.

Bonni: [00:10:49] So Linda Nilson has written a book on specifications grading and she’s really the expert and she came on back in episode 29 so it’s been a while and shared about this is really a way where we can do away almost entirely with the quibbling over points and was it a B or B minus or B plus that type of thing. And the whole entire class almost becomes pass or fail except instead of it being truly pass or fail like some institutions have some of our courses it’s just more oh I want to earn an A. Well these are the specifications I would have to meet on this number of assignments in order to earn an A.

Bonni: [00:11:31] And you set out in the very beginning oh I want to earn a B. These are the specifications I’d have to meet in order to attain a b with this type of assignments. And so she talked about this a little bit back in number in episode number 29. I’m going to play a quick clip from her sharing a bit more about specifications grading. But if anyone listening is interested in learning more I’d say definitely go check out her book or check out episode 29 or Also Robert Talbert has written extensively about his experience with specifications on the Chronicle of Higher Ed Web site. But here’s Linda Nelson on episode number 29.

Linda: [00:12:08] Students are graded pass fail on individual assignments and tests and also odd bundles or modules. I’m going to call them bundles of individual assignments and tests and I’ll explain those later. But in any case students earn full credit or no credit depending on whether their work meets the specifications specs that you laid out for that piece of work. No partial credit at passing does not mean you know getting C or C minus level. No no no. This is where we restore rigor. You make pass a B level quality of work if you want you can make it a level quality of work but whatever it is you are raising the standards just just for students to get credit. The key for us and this is a key ingredient of fact Grady is that we as instructors have to provide very clear and very detailed specs and even models when necessary for what constitutes passing acceptable piece of work. You might think aspects is a one level rubric and some assignments might be that the specs might be a simple Asiel completeness like all the questions are answered all the problems attempt at or set up in good faith.

Linda: [00:13:27] The work satisfies the assignment and others are going to be more complex. Of course like a description of the characteristics of good literature review or the contents of each section of a proposal. So you’ve got to write the specs clearly and carefully what all the works up front for the students. It’s all or nothing. It’s no sliding by no blowing off the directions no betting on partial credit for sloppy last minute work.

Linda: [00:13:52] Another ingredient is students are allowed at least one opportunity to revise an unacceptable piece of work or they can start a course with a limited number of quote tokens virtual tokens that they can exchange to revise a piece of work or drop it or to submit a work piece of work late to get an extension like 24 hours. So there are second chances and some flexibility built into this but not a lot.

Dave: [00:14:20] Bonni, when I think about courses I’ve taught in the past as an adjunct I think one of the biggest challenges that I had and I know that probably a lot of the audience has to is just taking the time to invest upfront to do all that and it’s like anything of in teaching and writing the syllabus printing it planning for a class and you think about it from the standpoint of leadership as well to a lot of leaders of course make mistakes when delegating or trying to motivate employees to do things because they don’t really think through in advance like how do I spend the time to frame what my expectations are and to really delegate appropriately. And they miss the principal leadership which has a lot of the work is upfront.

Dave: [00:14:58] It’s not the it’s not the time that the employees engage you know the work and so I think there’s some parallels here too of just a challenge for all of us to be thinking more intentionally about how we design courses but also to be willing to look at that time before the class is being worked to and maybe like you said when you do that well you actually literally create a better experience for the students but you also probably save yourself a lot of frustration along the way during the semester.

Bonni: [00:15:25] One of the things we shared about where some of what we called in our taxonomy more incremental methods. So even Naomi she has a very very small stakes assignment for her history of cinema course Americans and my believe it is. And just even giving them a choice of what format of notes they would like to submit. And she’s got samples of those so she’s established up front what her expectations are. But it’s very minimal choice but still the fact that they can then demonstrate that they have accomplished those small goals of taking notes is helpful and then we’ve talked a little bit. She does this in terms of having students do journals and I do it in terms of having students do blogs and I talked a little bit about my doctoral class how I’ve evolved their blogs over time.

Bonni: [00:16:13] Early on when this program first launched and I started teaching in it I would have them blog about the textbook and that was the way that I could show oh look we’re learning how to use WordPress we’re learning a little bit about blague we’re learning even down to just what’s the difference between a page and a post technical things but also so much more comes out of it. People have to reflect on who am I and I blogged about that recently who are we as our digital selves and the kinds of questions that come up.

Bonni: [00:16:41] But one of the failures I saw myself as having was trying to couple too many things together for that kind of an assignment that really became very high stakes which to me if you told me to write a blog not a problem about a textbook What else do you want me to write about you know. But there were so many barriers to it that as soon as I switched it to be they can create a blog to suit any purpose including They could create a blog. That’s from a pseudonym. And no one ever has to know who they are it’s not required that they actually use their own name or any identifying characteristic.

Bonni: [00:17:14] So that really turned out well and those are things that you can do Dave in really small ways. You don’t have to completely revamp your class to just allow a little bit more autonomy on things like that.

Dave: [00:17:25] Kind of goes back to what James Ling has said before the show small teaching. You know do something start with something make a small. I mean we see so much of this in the literature now and in the popular media on habits and making making a small change you can get some success early on make a tweak and then that builds momentum for you to do things later on. And I think that’s one of the challenges that we should all take on is be willing to try a few of these things in the next class maybe even the current class or instructing so that we try something and do something different and maybe it works maybe it doesn’t but if it works great if it doesn’t that’s data to quote Ainissa Ramirez that’s data on what does not work and so try something else that will work.

Bonni: [00:18:06] And then a couple other methods that we shared about was what I called Choose Your Own Adventure assessment and that is some of the points are fixed so that we make sure that the learning outcomes are addressed. In my case. OK you have to take at least three of the five tests that are going to be administered this semester. But then from there they get to choose would you rather write a paper to demonstrate learning would you rather give a presentation would you rather go out in interviews and business owners and come back and talk about that. I mean we give them some choice to be able to demonstrate the learning but one exception to that if you’re teaching a writing class then you don’t give the choice to give a presentation. So you want to make sure that whatever the learning outcomes are they’re still being supported.

Bonni: [00:18:51] But assuming it isn’t a writing class then what’s wrong with giving them the choice between a presentation or some other exploratory way of demonstrating their learning. And one of the things of course is that things can get messy in terms of grading but things can always get messy in terms of green leather. And I mean there’s we’ve talked before actually Dave and Dave you and I have shared on the show about even just how grading essay questions on an exam can be problematic and we have to really watch ourselves and put things into place to make sure that our grading is as fair as it really can be.

Bonni: [00:19:25] And I won’t go back and revisit some of those things. But I mean it’s worth it to me to have the potential for Medhi grading than I can quantify it a little bit better in terms of describing the expectations and grading that way. But boy it’s really remarkable what happens when you just set a class on fire by infusing it with autonomy and agency it’s so so fun and really the most inspirational thing to me that’s come out of the show’s past episodes is the example that we had from Thia Wolf back on episode 101.

Bonni: [00:19:59] Thia is from Chico State if you haven’t had a chance to listen to that episode I would say go back and listen. She is phenomenal and one of the things she described which I’d never heard of this before is public sphere pedagogy and it’s this idea that one of the ways I can give agency I don’t have to change a single thing I’m doing other than bring in someone from outside the classroom to reflect and observe and give feedback.

Bonni: [00:20:27] I did this last semester in my introduction to business class I had for years you know I’ve taught this for 13 years and I’ve never brought in outside business professionals so I changed it up. That’s the one thing I changed. And it would be like I’d change the entire class. It was amazing. It was absolutely amazing. It’s just we talk about saying gosh why does it always have to be about the grades and the points why can’t it just be about learning. It was so fabulous so here is Thia Wolf on episode 101 talking a little bit more about public sphere pedagogy this idea of what happens when we take the classroom and it goes our learning goes out in display. Out to the public. Here she is.

Thia: [00:21:11] I would argue that these experiences give students a different view of themselves and when we ask them to do research and writing and reading in college even though we’re asking them to do this in more sophisticated sophisticated ways than they did it in high school they don’t necessarily feel a powerful motivation to do that work and they don’t necessarily feel that the work has a great deal to do with them and who they are becoming.

Thia: [00:21:49] So when they go public with the work they have to stand by it and really remarkable things happen. We have a lot of student writing we’ve read over the years that we were they reflect on these experiences and they write things like. Now I know why my parents like to have these kinds of conversation. Now I see what research is for oh I thought that my peers were kind of lazy and didn’t want to do anything in the world. But now we see there are lots of people like me who are interested in something important or now I see that even though as a person alone I can’t make a difference. I can make a difference with other people who care about these things. So there’s you know these this new way of seeing the cell and this is where I think we’ve missed the boat so often is that we don’t give students opportunities to experience and reflect on how the curriculum is part of them and they are affecting it.

Dave: [00:23:04] You’ve had so many great guests on the show Bonni I remember Thia specifically in fact I even, this is weird. I remember when I was driving and when I heard that was because I was listening to it on the road and it just was so impressed at what they’re doing at Chico State in being able to really bring learning it in a practical way. And I love what they’ve done and I just it just reminded me of all the wonderful lessons from them.

Dave: [00:23:28] So I want to also ask you about some of the other presentations you attended at this conference and in addition to your presentation and one of them I believe was from Stephen Brookfield who’s been on the show twice before. And you saw him speak. What did he have to say?

Bonni: [00:23:44] Well one of the things I just laughed about is that Naomi who was with me at the conference she’s the one who presented with me and also we were conference buddies and she she’s never seen him speak and I don’t believe she heard him on the podcast either so he was just completely fresh and he’s a dichotomy because here’s this seemingly formal British man I mean anyone with a British accent seems formal. You know he is. You just expect formality I guess. And then he brings up on his PowerPoint picture and references his band which is the ninety nine. Ninety Niners band. And so he brings up on his power point ninety nine years and then he’s got a picture of his band and Naomi in her head.

Bonni: [00:24:25] I did not know this about her but apparently I don’t know if she loves punk or just knows the genre or whatever but she was. She’s like it better be it better be real punk it better be like it real the real stuff. I was laughing because anyone who is around the same age as me. My idea of punk is this band called The Toy Dolls from the 80s and they’re like not real punk if he had started playing like a like Nellie the elephant like a totally jolly sort of punk she would not have been satisfied so he played a little audio clip in fact I may. Looks like it’s here.

Bonni: [00:24:56] I know you won’t care because he likes to get word out about his bantling play a little bit. Exactly what made me heard when she got to hear his real band play. I have to say our sound quality today is far better than poor Stephen had at the conference.

Bonni: [00:25:35] Anyway, he introduced himself a bit and then his whole presentation was wrapped around teaching as becoming And if you’ve ever heard him speak before or you read any of his books he’s written over 20 books about teaching. He is so in touch with himself and so willing to be authentic. And I what I love about how he framed the entire talk was that he’s not done yet. He’s been teaching for decades he’s been doing this a long time and yet he’s not done yet.

Bonni: [00:26:06] He is still becoming. He’s becoming pedagogically. And he says here improving technical command of pedagogy assessment curriculum development. He is still be coming on to logically that is understanding the essential nature of being a teacher. He is still becoming politically negotiating to survive and subvert and an organization run as a corporation or as a bureaucracy. He is still becoming emotionally. He’s still learning how to endure the emotional rollercoaster and feelings of failure in his teaching. And lastly he is still becoming racially understand in the way his own racial identity significantly frames his teaching practice. And he talks about in each one of these just how he is still becoming. And it’s just beautiful because he of course weaves in so much wisdom he has been doing this a long time. He’s an exquisite teacher of course.

Bonni: [00:27:05] He has wonderful things to share and yet he’s not done. And it’s so wonderful just to hear from someone else and go ah I’m not done yet either. I feel like so much of a failure when I’m not done yet. But here’s someone else who’s such an exquisite teacher and so gifted and yet he hasn’t done yet either. Maybe it’s OK that I’m not done. Maybe it’s OK that I’m still becoming. And it was so wonderful.

Bonni: [00:27:28] And in fact as of this recording at this moment day of sitting upstairs on my screen a blog post that I am about to wrap up just on the on becoming racially so I talk a little bit about attending the conference but most of the post is on becoming racially as you could imagine Dave a really hard post to write because I’m admitting some things that I don’t like about how I am becoming But part of that to me is being willing to be vulnerable and say I’m still becoming. I still fail. And one of the things actually I won’t go too much because the blog post goes into a lot more depth. But when it comes to the race and ethnicity pieces of it he talks about normalizing racism which at first I’m like. Like what are you saying what are you saying that doesn’t sound good there’s enough normalizing going on in this world.

Bonni: [00:28:17] But what he means and I don’t it’s always dangerous when he’s not here to respond. And by the way Stephen and I did talk about him coming back on the show specifically to talk about that on becoming racially so he can explain it for himself.

Bonni: [00:28:30] But what I took away was just that we need to be able to name things. So when we can name racism that Dave there’s racism in you Bonni. There’s racism in me that when we can name those things then he says we can move beyond shame and guilt shame and guilt doesn’t get us anywhere. I mean if shame and guilt gets us to action and a change of behavior and a change of perspective and having more empathy than have all the shame and guilt you want but the danger that we see happens so much as we just get stuck in the shame and the guilt and then the shame and the guilt separates us from those who are different than us.

Bonni: [00:29:10] And so again that word normalizing was one where I thought it’s a paradox they both want us to normalize. And don’t all the same. But anyway for each one of these areas pedagogy ontologically politically emotionally racially he had such powerful things to say.

Bonni: [00:29:27] And at the end of it I was I felt like crying and laughing and he’s just he’s wonderful but then I thought well you come on and talk about every single one of those and just do have five bonus episode. All Stephen Brookfield but I think that maybe might be a little bit too much of an invitation so I’ll just start with the racially and see where we go from there.

Dave: [00:29:45] Sounds awesome. I wish I could have been there to hear it. I’m looking forward to hearing that conversation because I think there’s so much I mean you’ve talked about it in the show so beautifully several times and there’s so much going on in our society of course right now. And also there are some positives coming out of it too in that we’re having more conversations about us as a society and how it relates to a lot of the work many of us do and specifically in the classroom. So it’s it’s it’s going to be really unfortunately going to be interesting to watch as time goes on here. But I’m really glad that you’re engaging in this as well.

Bonni: [00:30:15] Do you have anything else you want to add before we go on and look at our recommendations or are you ready to recommend?

Dave: [00:30:20] Lets recommend a way. Let’s recommend.

Bonni: [00:30:23] Yay. Well I was so pleased to listen recently to a Teach Better podcast. This is with Doug McKee and Edward O’Neill and they talked with a guy named Steve Pond who’s at Cornell and the episode was called Teaching with Jazz and it was so much fun to listen to but one of the things that made it singularly fun to listen to is that they had different pieces of music that were played and you know me Dave I’m always looking for some kind of music to play before class and this one totally got stuck in my head.

Bonni: [00:30:57] And so I started playing it before a couple of classes. And if you want to get students toes tapping this is something that totally in my experience does the trick. Beyond most songs that I might play before class here you go and thanks to Doug and Edward for this great reminder of this old tune. Wop bop a loo bop a lop bam boom, Tutti fruitti, oh rutti…

Bonni: [00:31:40] And now that would be the only thing that plays on the soundtrack in my mind for the rest of today and possibly potentially tomorrow. But it’s OK because we have our accrediting body that’s visiting this week so you know it’s a biggie that I have a lot extra energy little zip in my step when I go through those accrediting meetings tomorrow.

Dave: [00:31:57] A nice quiet week for you huh.

Bonni: [00:31:58] It’s a super quiet week. Nothing is going on.

Dave: [00:32:00] My recommendation is an article that I heard about on a different podcast and it is I believe it’s a Slate article and I’m not going to do a good job for pronouncing the author’s last name. Nwanevu. I think Osita is the first name and the article is titled Worried About the Direction of Our Government? Do something about it. “Run for Office”. We’ll get a link in the show. I thought this was a really great article of if you’re not happy with how things are going. Do something about it. And I’m appearing in a lot of circles a client’s personal personal relationships money recently of there’s a lot of discontent about you know certainly what’s going on nationally in the government of politics news and all that. What I would a rarely hear is OK here’s what I’m doing here’s what I’m going to do to advocate here’s what I’m going to do to take action here’s what I’m going to do to educate myself and I’m I’m hearing a lot of people kind of what did you say earlier were you kind of get in that paralyzed state of not doing anything. And this article was just a really good way of like OK here’s what you can do. And it may not literally be running for office but there was just some really good action item things in there. And so I’d recommend that as a as an inspirational read for those who are so inclined.

Bonni: [00:33:15] That sounds great. I haven’t read it yet and I think maybe I hesitated to read read it because I thought it was if I wasn’t going to run for office then forget it. You know so I’ll go I’ll check it out definitely. Thanks for the recommendation. You’re welcome. And Dave if you want to end our show I’m going to start the theme music and let you sort around this out today.

Dave: [00:33:32] I would love to if you would like to learn more about the resources we mentioned in today’s episode including all the slides from Bonnie’s presentation go to teachinginhighered.com/142 right. And that will have everything there along with all the links with everything we’ve mentioned. And if you haven’t already subscribed to Bonnies weekly update you can get that by going to teachinginhighered.com/subscribe. You will get the article that palmy writes every week on teaching or productivity. Also the show notes from every episode so that’s an easy way to get access to all those posts. The first time you join you’ll get the downloadable PTF on 19 different educational technology tools you can use in your classroom that Paani put together a while back so you can find all that again. Teachinginhighered.com/Subscribe. Thanks Bonni again for letting me be part of the show.

Bonni: [00:34:20] Thanks for being here Dave and thanks to all of you for listening. I’ll see you next time.

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