Bonni Stachowiak [00:00:00]:

Today on episode number 566 of the Teaching in Higher Ed podcast, joy centered pedagogy in higher education, uplifting teaching and learning for all with Eileen Camfield.

Production Credit: Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Welcome to this episode of Teaching in Higher Ed. I’m Bonni Stachowiak, and this is the space where we explore the art and science of being more effective at facilitating learning. We also share ways to improve our productivity approaches so we can have more peace in our lives and be even more present for our students. Since 1997, Eileen has worked in higher education as a classroom instructor, curriculum designer, and faculty pedagogy coordinator. She spent five years as director of a university writing program before becoming the executive director of student academic success services. Eileen is currently based at the University of California, Merced, where she serves as interim director of the Center of Engaged Teaching and Learning and as a teaching professor in the global arts, media, and writing studies department.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:01:30]:

She also leads a research group dedicated to exploring strategies for developing student resilience in the face of compounding adversities. Her recent book, which we’ll be talking about today, Joy Centered Pedagogy in Higher Education: Uplifting Teaching and Learning for All, argues that joy rooted in curiosity, connection, and creativity provides a powerful framework for both exploring the effectiveness of pedagogical strategies and for guiding educators through academic obstacles. Eileen Camfield, welcome to Teaching in Higher Ed.

Eileen Camfield [00:02:11]:

Oh, thank you. It is a delight to be here. Thank you for having me.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:02:15]:

I have been podcasting for ten plus years. I get a lot of weird emails, a lot of weird emails and related to the podcast. And my husband also is a podcaster, so we like to sometimes over dinner joke about what’s the funniest weird spam kind of message. Like, what would be the most, like, weirdest guest that someone might propose? You know? A parrot trainer, you know, to come on and talk about medical uses of cannabis. And it’s like, that has nothing to do with my podcast. So in terms of you and your collaborators book that we’re here to talk about today, It was the opposite of that. I don’t think I’ve gone.

Eileen Camfield [00:02:55]:

Goodness. I was worried where you

Bonni Stachowiak [00:02:57]:

were gonna go with that. I get, like, I get my my eyes can’t even slow down enough to just be like, yes. Whoever she is. Yes. Yes, please. So I’m once again going to read the title because it meant so much to me and I imagine to you as well. Joy centered pedagogy in higher education, uplifting, teaching, and learning for all. It sounds to listeners like we’re gonna start with joy.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:03:24]:

We’re actually gonna start with pain, then we’ll come back to the joy. Tell us about what kinds of themes arise as we consider what students have nonverbally been telling us, been telling you and your collaborators since the COVID nineteen pandemic hit the world.

Eileen Camfield [00:03:44]:

Let me begin by just acknowledging that things were not okay prior to the pandemic. I think in particularly about fifteen years ago, I was teaching a class. It was the beginning of the semester. I had this getting to know you icebreaker kind of assignment where I wanted students to just describe to me their most meaningful or most enjoyable learning experience. And so they wrote these little paragraphs for me, and I, you know, was delighted to collect them. I wanted to know who my students were. This was, you know, and what kind of learners they were and how could I support them in the semester. I started reading through these stories, and the students told stories about learning how to braid hair, learning how to bake cupcakes, learning how to play soccer, learning how to drive a car on and on and on, but nowhere did they describe learning that had happened in school.

Eileen Camfield [00:04:45]:

And this was astonishing to me because school was kind of a happy place for me. So I went back to my class, and I said, well, thank you for this. I’m really, you know, happy that you you gave me these stories. I can tell you really enjoy learning, but you don’t seem to talk about school. And so this one young man, I’ll you know, I would still remember his name. He raised his hand, and he just said, well, professor Canfield, school teaches us what we’re bad at. And that just went through me like a knife. And it forever changed the trajectory of my research and my identity as a scholar.

Eileen Camfield [00:05:25]:

Like, I wanted to to get to the art of this. So that communicated to me that students were afraid to fail. They were risk averse. Subsequently, I’ve done lots of interviews with students. Students have described feeling like the red pen of death is hovering over them as they’re doing their writing for their English class or whatever it might be. And so that was pre pandemic. And I think what we’ve seen since the pandemic is this compounding effect of all of the fear and uncertainty and loss. And I think what’s emerging now is the cost of all of that isolation and this level of of loneliness that is just decimating our college age students.

Eileen Camfield [00:06:20]:

So I think that when I hear my colleagues complain about students being disengaged, right, something happened to them during the pandemic. They just don’t care about school anymore. They don’t they aren’t showing up to class or they aren’t turning in their homework or all of this kind of stuff. You know, I think about Daniel Siegel’s work about about trauma. And I know that’s a big word, and so we can also just say suffering or hardship. But Daniel Siegel talks about this state of hyperarousal that people can react out of this sense of irritability, you know, quick to just pop. And, you know, many colleagues tell me that was my last faculty meeting. But but yeah.

Eileen Camfield [00:07:05]:

I think there’s this hyperarousal, but then hypoarousal. Right? I can’t get out of bed in the morning. I just don’t have the energy to to do this reading or to do this problem set. And so I think that we’re seeing some of that showing up in our students. It’s unfortunate that many folks seem to want to be kind of blaming the victim, blaming students as somehow entitled or lazy when there’s a systemic problem that is happening. And I think it has to do with the amygdala in our brain is just firing off and we’re flooded with cortisol and, you know, we’re just shutting down from any kind of of openness or curiosity about about learning, much less getting out of bed in the morning. So I think that that’s what students are telling us right now.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:08:05]:

I’m gonna read from joy centered pedagogy to echo a little bit back about what you just described. Essentially, students appear to be nonverbally telling us that the pedagogies some of us have relied on for decades are not working. Often, these are the pedagogies of Freire’s nineteen seventy banking system of ranking, of exclusion. I appreciate how you just for us didn’t allow us to have our brains create this overly simplified cause and effect. You just echoed so many threads that have been going on long since before COVID nineteen became so much a part of our vernacular. And before then, we get to joy, and we promise we are getting to joy. There’s so much joy to come. Could you speak about resistance? What do we need to resist before we can get to joy?

Eileen Camfield [00:09:09]:

Oh, boy. I think I think let’s start just by talking about the culture of the academy and the ranking and the hierarchy and the competition over scarce resources, the hyper individualistic orientation to doing our work, the idea of ownership of ideas, the time scarcity as well that shows up for faculty as I need to cover a certain amount of content in a quarter or a semester, and we’re always behind. And I think that there’s a sense of, of panic about that. I think there’s a, a strange rigidity in the way we package information also that we aren’t having conversations across disciplines. And so there’s this notion of knowledge as being very kind of formulaic or very simplified in some cases. I think that’s all tied up in a bow of of cynicism that sometimes wears the guise of, well, I just am worldly. I know the real secret about how how it all works. And, well, ain’t it all awful.

Eileen Camfield [00:10:25]:

And I think that when faculty express that kind of cynicism, it translates to a kind of hopelessness for our students. And that culture of higher education is anti motivating for students. But I think what’s beautiful about our book is that we also talk about our experiences as educators within that culture of higher education. And so when we look at the epidemic levels of burnout amongst faculty, we recognize that this is not just that there’s joylessness or a need for more joy for our students. It’s not a prescription we need to write for them. So hence the title of the book, uplifting teaching and learning for all. This is for everybody. It’s not a zero sum game even though the culture in higher education is very much win lose.

Eileen Camfield [00:11:20]:

You got the funding that I didn’t get kind of a thing. So to to recognize that that we’re all we all benefit from this. And so we need to resist a lot of what is considered normal or rigorous in higher education. And, of course, then that all exists within our larger society where there’s so much uncertainty about our planet, much less, you know, smaller things than, than environmental concerns or that kind of thing.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:11:53]:

That word rigor comes up in your work. It also comes up so much in this podcast, and I’ve appreciated people who have helped me see how often we we don’t even know what we’re talking about. We’re we’re saying things like there’s just not enough rigor, but we’re using a word that can mean so many different things to so many different people in such different context that what it really ends up often becoming is just a derogatory way of viewing the people who we’re supposed to be serving or equipping or whatever word feels best to center yourself in your own sense of purpose in your teaching. You talk about Kevin Gannon’s book and his work about hope. You write, Kevin Gannon contends that many of our notions of rigor promote a form of academic hazing that values endurance over learning. In this context, it’s no wonder students might appear disengaged. This is not to suggest that our classes should not be challenging, but Gannon asks us to make a distinction between logistical and cognitive rigor to examine the hidden curriculum and the barriers we might erect by creating Byzantine course procedures. What sorts of things come up in your mind when you think about rigor or the hidden curriculum or Byzantine course procedures? And, yes, I am proud of myself that it did not require a podcast editor for me to say the word byzantine correctly two times and now three.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:13:37]:

So I’m not gonna say that word anymore in this podcast interview because I’ve nailed it. I’m batting a thousand, and so I give that gift to the you know, Andrew, a little less work for you on the podcast editing this time around. I was a little concerned. Why is such such a hard word? Alright. I’m done now. What what’s coming to mind for you? Do you even remember my question? Because I I I think so. I think I got it.

Eileen Camfield [00:14:01]:

I I really appreciate what you’re saying too about how often there’s just this uncritical use of this word rigor. And sometimes it just boils down to a belief that learning should hurt. And that if you aren’t really clocking in the right amount of pain, then you must not really be gaining anything. You might must not really be learning anything. And sometimes I talk with faculty and I say, well, when you say rigor, do you mean something like, the rigor of a of a New England winter? That’s that’s rigorous. Do you mean stiff inflexibility as in rigor mortis? Because I don’t think we want either of those things in our classrooms. But yet everyone, perhaps because of all of those institutional culture things that I was just speaking about, like, no one wants to be perceived as not being rigorous. I’m not touchy feely.

Eileen Camfield [00:15:05]:

I’m not, you know, a fluffy airhead. I’m rigorous. And yet we never think about vigor. And I wanna encourage folks to think about how vigor with a v, you know, can can go alongside rigor with an r. I think that Vigor is about the life force. It is about an affirming, uplifting, growthful orientation toward learning, which necessitates nourishment in in the soil and light from the sun to create this possibility of of growth. So when I sometimes describe myself as being on a campaign against rigor, I don’t really mean that our classes should lack depth or not be challenging, but I think that in the ways that they kinda kill the souls of our students, you know, that’s highly problematic. And so we really wanna be thinking about what what enlivens them, what what invigorates them.

Eileen Camfield [00:16:22]:

So you mentioned the word Byzantine and and and, indeed, I have students tell me these stories about, well, we’re supposed to be all using the same course management system, but you see, this one professor says she prefers Google forms and Google Docs. And so we’re using these Google Docs, and then we have to copy this stuff, and then we have to upload it into the course management system. And then it gets graded, and then after it gets graded, we have to do a hard copy, rewrite, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. And it’s often out of the instructor’s convenience that they’re doing things you know, they prefer one format over another without kinda realizing that our students are taking four, five, or six classes in a semester. And if everyone has different procedures, then our students are just overwhelmed and, you know, cognitive load is a thing, And we don’t need to overload our students with these sorts of procedural infusions when they already have other things to be focusing on.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:17:27]:

Finally, we get to joy. What has it Oh, yay. What has it meant to you to center joy in your teaching?

Eileen Camfield [00:17:36]:

Oh, it has meant, some unlearning. It has meant a radical reframing of how I think about student centered teaching. It’s meant paying really careful attention to what my students are doing and feeling in my classroom, and it has meant actively decentering myself. And when I talk about the unlearning, what’s been what’s been hard, what’s been a reckoning for me is realizing that I’ve had really high course evaluations because I’m a very entertaining teacher, and I’m very enthusiastic. Students say that a lot. Oh, she’s so enthusiastic. Oh, yeah. I’m enthusiastic.

Eileen Camfield [00:18:22]:

That’s great. And yet that’s not student centered. That is still me and my energy driving the the the class. And so during the pandemic, I was deeply worried about all of the reports that were coming out about the disconnection and the depression and the the misery and the the the trouble that our students were in. And I thought about this thing that got me through the pandemic, which was stand up comedy. And I teach writing, and so I realized I can hack into a genre. I can hack into rhetoric. And instead of starting with ancient Roman orators, as many a rhetoric class starts.

Eileen Camfield [00:19:12]:

I can say the art of persuasive speech applies to trying to persuade an audience to laugh. But here’s the secret. This was the first time in my teaching career, and I’ve been teaching for thirty years. It was the first time in my teaching career that I was intentionally designing a class that I thought was gonna be an easy a. I wanted my students to come in and play. I wanted them to connect with each other. I wanted them to laugh. I was keenly aware of all that amygdala stuff and cortisol that I was just talking to you about.

Eileen Camfield [00:19:49]:

I wanted to produce some oxytocin and serotonin. I wanted to just come together and heal and recover from these long months of isolation. So I was pretty pretty confident. I, you know, I I can hack into that genre. I knew that I was gonna have to and I and just to be clear, I didn’t have the term joy centered pedagogy at this point, but this is this is really where this book was born was through the experience of designing this class. But I knew I had to do some things differently in terms of my grading that I needed to make it okay for students to take risks because, boy, standing up and performing comedy and failing most of the time takes a lot of courage. And so I needed students to not be worried that they were gonna get a d in the class, you know, because they weren’t funny. That’s not what it was about.

Eileen Camfield [00:20:44]:

So I had to do a lot of labor based grading and a lot of process orientation and a lot of group work, a lot of collaborative work. Students needed to pitch their jokes to one another to see what landed and then they needed to get feedback from their peers. Oh, here’s how you can funny it up. I have an idea. Here’s where you can pivot it. Oh, I don’t think you, you know, you didn’t push the line hard enough or, oh, wow. You went way too far with that one. That’s offensive.

Eileen Camfield [00:21:16]:

All of those kinds of conversations, that needed to come from their peers and not from me. And I had to really reckon with the fact that I was uneasy with students working in groups like that. I was the entertaining, engaging teacher. I was the carnival barker, you know, step right up and get on the merry-go-round of Eileen’s class. I’ve got bright lights and fun music, and it’ll be a great thing. But the class still kind of pivoted around my learning outcomes, my goals for the day. I had to let all of that go, and I needed to just take the back seat and go on a joyride with my students. And that was unsettling for me.

Eileen Camfield [00:22:04]:

And yet the kind of feedback, I mean, what was astonishing is I thought with this standup comedy class that the students were gonna tell jokes about their annoying roommates or the bad food in the cafeteria, maybe some puerile sex, drugs, and rock and roll kinds of stuff. Maybe even they would talk about what it was like during the pandemic for them. I was unprepared by how trusting my students and giving them a space with which they could create this stand up material opened the door for them to talk about far more personal and traumatic things than I could ever I would never have asked my students to, you know, tell me about what it was like when your parents divorced when you were two. Tell me about, you know, etcetera, etcetera. And I won’t go into the details of what they talked about, but I will say that I was just blown away with how they responded. And then the feedback that I got at the end of the semesters, they said, wow. We really feel healed. We really feel like our suffering does not have to define us anymore.

Eileen Camfield [00:23:16]:

We have claimed some agency over our narratives, and we’ve gotten some critical distance. And we’ve actually poked a little fun at these situations that life threw at us through no fault of our own, and we’re in a better place than we were. So that was amazing. And then the other comment that they gave me was, professor Camfield, this was the hardest class we ever had. This is the hardest easy a that we ever earned because it just demanded so much authenticity from us. And yet the authenticity was so rewarding. And so that just got my gears turning, and my heart lifted. And I just said, we need I need to understand this more.

Eileen Camfield [00:24:07]:

We need more of these kinds of experiences. And so, again, that’s when I turned to my colleagues, and I said, we gotta write about what we’re doing in our classrooms that allow for these kinds of opportunities for our students. And I was really mindful of all of the different kinds of pedagogical frameworks that were being popularized at the time, and I was trying to think, well, what are we doing while we’re really centering joy? And and therein a title was was born, but, you know, it’s just been it’s been personally transformative and has really just changed my orientation to teaching.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:24:46]:

You quote Ross Gay who asks us, what if joy is not only entangled with pain, but is also what emerges from how we care for each other through these things? Tell us, Eileen, how is joy a renewable resource?

Eileen Camfield [00:25:05]:

I spoke a little bit ago about the the zero sum game of higher education, and I think joy creates a win win or it creates a a beneficent cycle instead of a vicious cycle. Right? It builds on itself, and it deepens as it builds. So the story I was just telling about the stand up comedy class, the the joy that was kind of a more superficial joy, if you will, of just laughing at stand up comedy kinds of situations really transformed into this deep bearing witness to each other’s lived experience and this deep opportunity for empathy and connection. So joy is a renewable resource because it does not get depleted. It doesn’t get used up. And in fact, it’s really the opposite. It it it just, I don’t know, exponentially grows as you invite it to bloom in your relationships with your students and with your colleagues.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:26:14]:

It is so fun hearing you share that story about stand up comedy. I’m just imagining what it would have been like to get to be in your class. I was gonna say when I was in college, but how about now? I would love to be joining you. Something I know can be challenging for us sometimes, though, is to think about we just got this beautiful slice from you of joy in your teaching, but it might seem so specific to your discipline. What wisdom do you have to share with us about what that might look like in other contexts?

Eileen Camfield [00:26:48]:

Yeah. And I think it’s important to to note that joy emerges from a particular context in a particular course that is shaped by the individuals. And so people will ask me, can you give me a checklist of the things I need to do to make my class more joyful? And I I can say checklists probably are not joyful, so let’s just start with the Hey.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:27:09]:

Hey. I was I was so with you through this whole interview, Eileen. I actually find them joyful, but I’m gonna try to put that part of my brain as I will have to have a whole another conversation about the joy of checklist. But, please, I did not mean to interrupt you, but I just totally did. I I feel it too.

Eileen Camfield [00:27:27]:

I get it. I I’m a checklister. But I think that the important thing to remember is that joy centered pedagogy asks us to change the context for learning for our students rather than the content of our course. So if you have to teach Boyle’s Law or if you have to teach really difficult computer coding kinds of problems to your students or procedures to your students, you wanna be thinking about how you can have your students working collaboratively, or how you can have them doing authentic research, or how you can just pose questions that are inherently engaging for students. And I think those are opportunities for joy learning to happen or joyful learning to happen.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:28:20]:

This is the time in the show where we each get to share our recommendations. It should come as no surprise to listeners that I would like to recommend Eileen Camfield’s and her contributors’ work, joy centered pedagogy in higher education, uplifting teaching and learning for all. As I mentioned in the start of our conversation, the moment I saw the first half of the first half of the first half of the sentence I was all in, I still had no idea what I was in store for. I was really surprised by how many themes got woven in, including anger, including failure, including things that we would so not normally associate with joy. But, of course, once I got there, I felt very welcomed, and it was this realization of, of course, that has to do with joy. Of course, it does, but wouldn’t have predicted it, wouldn’t have thought that that many so relatable, painful things would be woven in so beautifully. And, yeah, it just is a gorgeous, gorgeous, gorgeous work. I wanna mention to listeners who are curious, of course, I’m gonna encourage you to check out the show notes and and and go have a look at the book, but also that I’ve had a conversation off air with Eileen to say, would love to talk to your coauthors because I just think there’s, like, you know, many years’ worth of of potential future episodes.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:29:50]:

So if you are curious about the book and you end up reading it, please know that I look forward to inviting others who contributed to this wonderful, wonderful book to come on. My second recommendation, it was so fun thinking about what I might wish to share that would be under the theme of joy. If you’ve been listening for a while, you may realize how much I love music. I am a rare person. I know some of you are out there, but a rare person who almost a % of the time has a soundtrack playing in my mind. And I have recently started playing once again with our family, a game called song pop party. Song pop party is a game that you can play on your mobile devices. It’s available on Apple Arcade, on the Nintendo Switch, or on an Xbox.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:30:41]:

And those of us who are, shall we say, a little bit on the latter half of our lives might remember name that tune. It’s like a name that tune, but for today. And it has all different kinds of playlists. You’ll you’ll hear a about ten seconds or fifteen seconds of a song, and you’re asked, you get multiple choice tests essentially of either four different names of songs, and you have to guess what song is playing or four different artists, and you have to guess which artist is playing. And they have curated all the playlists. So you’ve got the kit we have really our our, daughter loves Taylor Swift. So if if she’s feeling like she’s getting too far behind in terms of points, that is how she will take us all down. And I I you know, she almost a % of the time will.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:31:32]:

My husband likes country more than any of the rest of us and has more of a history with the music, so he can usually take us down that way. I am older than anyone else in our family, so I have a little bit of an advantage if his songs from the eighties or seventies, etcetera, and also just love music and have been around longer too. So so it’s really, really fun. The other thing I love about this game is that while I’m playing it, if a song comes up that evokes some kind of memory and brings me joy, I can double click on it, puts a little heart, and it automatically creates and adds that song to a playlist in Apple Music. And I don’t know if it works that way in the other platforms that I mentioned, but I use it on Apple Arcade. And it’s so fun. I love pulling up that playlist and hitting shuffle and just delighting in the music even when I’m not playing the game. Because it is a little bit of a teaser thing when they only play the first ten to fifteen seconds, and I’m like, but I wanna hear the whole song.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:32:29]:

And I get to enjoy that music in both ways. So, Eileen, I’m gonna pass it over to you for whatever you’d like to recommend.

Eileen Camfield [00:32:36]:

Boy. Well, I have two recommendations that actually were shared with me by contributors to my book. So the first is Rest is Resistance by Tricia Hersey. That if you were intrigued when we were talking about all of the motifs of of the culture of higher education and the way that we are all kind of worn down and feeling like we have to just work until we drop, Tricia Hersey will inspire you to take a weekend off and and rest. And, indeed, that book inspired one of my contributors to talk about, I need to have some periods of silence in my classroom so that my students can actually kind of center themselves and get to a place where they can participate more enthusiastically in discussion. The other book is awe by Dacker Keltner. And what I appreciate about Dacker Keltner’s book, awe like joy, we often think about as a positive emotion, but Zacher Keltner talks about that that awe is something that we can find in some really hard times in life, but we can still find ourselves moved and noting something beyond the hard thing that that’s happening. So and you mentioned the Ross Gay piece and and that if you haven’t read inciting joy, you know, everyone must because it’s it’s highly inspiring.

Eileen Camfield [00:34:09]:

I also think it’s important for people to give themselves an opportunity for recreational reading and some silly fun reading because academics, oh, we get so serious so much at the time. So for me, I have kind of a a guilty pleasure of kind of sci fi fantasy. So if that appeals to you, Daniel O’Malley’s book, The Rook, is about this kind of paranormal branch of the government that investigates these kinds of experiences, conspiracies, but there’s a lot of magic, but a lot of humor in all of it. And there’s a, sequel to The Rook as well. So if if you need something that’s just kind of joyful and and a little escapism, I recommend those.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:35:04]:

Listeners of recent episodes may recall that I have been working on not entirely changing my listening habits, but just trying to change a balance of it. And you have just placed before me something that absolutely intrigues me in the sense of that do doing some more reading for enjoyment. The other thing I’ve been working at doing, Eileen, is slightly changing the percentage of books that I read digitally and infusing that with some audiobooks. And you mentioned Ross Gay’s book, a book, a book of delights and also inciting joy. And, oh my goodness, he is one of those that if you haven’t had a chance to hear him read his own books, who you are in for a treat? Just feel like I’m in the garden with the man. I truly do. And, oh, it’s so wonderful. Yes.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:35:58]:

So wonderful. Well, thank you so much for this book. Thank you for all the work and the joy that you’ve infused in this incredible sounding collaboration with these contributors. And thank you for investing your time in the teaching and higher ed ed community and coming and spreading joy with us today.

Eileen Camfield [00:36:16]:

Such a pleasure. Thank you again.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:36:21]:

Thanks once again to Eileen Camfield for joining me on today’s episode of Teaching in Higher Ed. Today’s episode was produced by me, Bonni Stachowiak. It was edited by the ever talented Andrew Kroeger. Podcast production support was provided by the amazing Sierra Priest. Thank you for listening. If you’ve yet to sign up for the Teaching in Higher Ed weekly update, now is that moment with joy. Head over to teachinginhighered.com/subscribe. You’ll receive the most recent episodes show notes as well as some other resources above and beyond that.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:37:02]:

Thank you so much for listening. I’ll see you next time on Teaching in Higher Ed.

Teaching in Higher Ed transcripts are created using a combination of an automated transcription service and human beings. This text likely will not represent the precise, word-for-word conversation that was had. The accuracy of the transcripts will vary. The authoritative record of the Teaching in Higher Ed podcasts is contained in the audio file.