Bonni Stachowiak [00:00:00]:

Today on episode number 498 of the Teaching in Higher Ed podcast, equipping educators to navigate AI with Stein Brunvand. Welcome to this episode of Teaching in Higher Ed. I’m Bonni Stachowiak, and this is the space where we discuss the art and science of being more effective at facilitating learning, we also share ways to improve our productivity approaches so we can have more peace in our lives and be even more present for our students. 

Before earning his doctorate degree in learning technologies at the University of Michigan, Stein Brunvand was an elementary school teacher. He taught 3rd grade for 3 years in the Marshall Islands at George Seitz elementary school, and 5th grade for 3 years in Michigan. Stein is very interested in the enhancement of learning environments through the integration of technology and enjoys working with pre service and practicing teachers to learn about how this can be done more effectively. In his dissertation, he looked at how scaffolds impact what pre service teachers learn and notice from videos of classroom practice. While at the University of Michigan Dearborn, he has investigated the impact of research based professional development on the integration of technology in k through 12 classrooms.

Stein is currently serving as a fellow in the ISTE AI Educator Prep Programs Explorations program, where he has been exploring effective ways to prepare his colleagues to teach pre service teachers about the use of AI in their classrooms. Stein Brunvand, welcome to Teaching in Higher Ed.

Stein Brunvand [00:02:01]:

Thanks so much for having me.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:02:02]:

Your dissertation research sounds very fascinating to me. I’m intrigued by the idea of you looking at scaffolds and preparing teachers to learn and videos. And I just know what I don’t know is a lot. Could you tell us a little bit about your dissertation research and also why was interesting to you or may or perhaps even if it was interesting to you.

Stein Brunvand [00:02:26]:

Sure. Sure. So, as is the case oftentimes in, Large r one universities like the University of Michigan. I was one of many graduate students working on a very large, research project, grant project, Looking at the, implementation of inquiry based science units in, middle school. And, a big part of what we’re doing is Helping to train teachers to learn how to teach in an inquiry approach. And so my background in video production, And I have a undergraduate degree in telecommunications because I had a lot time long long ago, I thought I wanted to go into television production. And so I was already interested in video, and so I devised a study where I went out, into many of the classrooms where they were implementing these inquiry based lessons and curricula and recorded teachers as they implement the lessons. And what we realized is that When a pre service, a novice teacher might observe a more experienced teacher, they’re not always going to notice The kinds of decisions that teacher is making that aren’t verbalized.

Stein Brunvand [00:03:32]:

Right? When a when an expert teacher notices students aren’t learning something And they choose to reteach something or restate something, they don’t often say to the class, I noticed you’re not learning, so I’m going to restate this for you. Right? So as I captured these videos, I would then interview the teachers afterward and ask, can you talk about some of the decisions you made during that lesson? And we realized that to help pre service teachers really be able to learn from these videos, we needed to be able to communicate those things out to them and kind of Scaffold their approach to watching these videos so that we could help them notice the important things and the important decisions the teachers were making as they were teaching. And so we wanted to look at what would be the most effective ways to draw attention to those different things and the different decisions that were being made throughout a given lesson.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:04:23]:

It sounds fascinating and I’m I’m glad I didn’t presume that this was interesting to me, but how how wonderful when something that we were interested in, We can bring that into a new context in a new way. So rather than, you know, you going to work in the industry as they say, You’re working in a different industry and but able to bring some of that curiosity and those skills and and passions with you. That’s wonderful. So you’ve been equipping teachers for a while now. How long would you say approximately it’s been that you’ve been equipping teachers?

Stein Brunvand [00:04:54]:

Close to 20 years.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:04:55]:

Yeah. So when you look back, what has what would be the kinds of things or a thing that you consider to be Particularly challenging for teachers, broadly speaking, to learn before they you you’re in the process of equipping them and then you’re going to Send them out and be, you know, full time independent teachers, you know, not not under any sort of a mentor or or coach. Are some of the things that come to mind for you that are hard for them to learn?

Stein Brunvand [00:05:22]:

So with my area being educational technology, and of course, the classes I teach As I Dave been working with, folks that are studying to be teachers, have focused on technology and the way to integrate technology in different learning situations. What I’ve noticed is that teaching is a bit unique in a profession and that the students I have all have 12 to 13 years of experience being in front of teachers. Right? And so they bring with them those experiences And what what they’ve seen modeled to them as instruction, and that also includes the use or lack of use of technology. So trying to help students reframe their thinking about what teaching might look like is is always a challenge. I often find that students, particularly my undergrad students come in to class and think, well, I know how to use technology. I use social media. I use all this technology. I’m a whiz with my phone.

Stein Brunvand [00:06:21]:

Why do I need this class? But after the 1st week or 2, when they realized The class isn’t just about using technology. It’s actually teaching with technology and figuring out how to enhance the learning experience Through the use of technology, then they then they start to kind of open their eyes a little bit more to why this might be a useful class. And, so part of it is just Breaking that mindset of their past experiences and their perceptions of technology and helping them think more about how how could we use this Tool, whatever it might be, in an effective way to make learning more accessible for students for instance.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:07:01]:

And what have what do you think about as you Reflect on those couple of decades about 1 or 2 of the major changes that you’ve seen in those challenges for equipping people, or Is it same old same old where you still saw that 20 years ago? There’s there’s so many parallels. It’s hard to separate.

Stein Brunvand [00:07:19]:

Yeah. So, of course, one of the challenges is that what we might have available at the university, when I’m teaching a class in a computer lab and I can rely on The Internet usually to work? Not always, but I can rely on a certain level of technology there. It’s not always available when students go out into the classroom, Whether it be as part of a field practicum experience they have or their student teaching or where they ultimately end up being employed. And so trying to help them understand that It’s not so much about learning a specific tool, but being open to learning what’s available to you and using what you have available to you To try to improve the learning experience. And sometimes, it’s not always a technological solution. Right? And sometimes, it may be a tool that Is not even on the surface, looks like it’s designed for teaching, but for something else completely. But if you can approach it with an open mind, Yeah. It can end up being a really effective instructional tool.

Stein Brunvand [00:08:18]:

An example that I recall, a student who was, wanting to create a lesson For, students that were learning Spanish. And she found a a site that allows you to basically, it was a site that sold furniture. And you could redesign your your house by putting different pieces of furniture in, and then you could label the furniture. And she came up with the idea that students could label the furniture in Spanish, so they’d have to learn how chair and table and couch and bed and those types of things, which was part of the vocabulary that she was teaching them. So here she took a a piece of technology that is really probably never intended to help people learn Spanish or another of any kind of language, And then she repurposed it in a way that was fun for the students because they had a fun time redesigning their imaginary houses While also practicing their Spanish. Right? So part of it is just just helping students reenvision how technology might be used. And I think that It again, it’s it’s not so much about let’s learn this specific software or this specific hardware, but let’s learn about how this Class of software or hardware could be useful, and how can we be flexible and adaptable so that we can roll with whatever is available to us?

Bonni Stachowiak [00:09:36]:

Your story is powerful and I I think about the few people I’ve had a chance to be connected with through the podcast who’ve talked about who are experts in teaching languages. And one one thing that that someone had written to me is the ways in which tools like Duolingo And others don’t provide contextual help and that so much of learning a language is through the context. So how wonderful that it it’s not only was fun, and not only is a way to practice Spanish, but also done so in a realistic Context, because how many of us have had to to sign or or want to? I I still remember going to move into a dorm and where you know, how is how we gonna set up the dorm? And there there would just be, like, lots of opportunities to have it in a context which many of us could relate to and then make it that much more relevant to us. So speaking of contexts, you and I met I I was honored to be able to serve this fall as a scholar in residence For the University of Michigan Dearborn, I got to interview you as an expert on a panel as we explored artificial intelligence Within a higher education context, before we get to higher education, I’d love to hear you reflect for a few minutes on just The k through 12 context and what kinds of challenges and what kinds of opportunities you’re seeing with regard to the Continued emergence of artificial intelligence there. And then we’ll look at higher ed after that and see what differences and similarities there are with that context.

Stein Brunvand [00:11:13]:

I think if you talk with teachers, both the k twelve and higher ed, but we’ll focus on k twelve first, about AI, one of the first things one one of the first concerns people bring up is cheating. How do I stop students from having AI do all their work for them, Answer all their questions, write all their essays and research papers. And I understand that, and that’s something to be concerned about. But that that definitely is something Within the context of k twelve, that is a concern. I think also the not not perhaps understanding the biases That might filter into AI and that may be perpetuated by AI. So having a a sense of that And and that the what you get as content that is perhaps spit back out at you by generative AI in particular Has carries with it its own, biases based on what it’s been trained on, the model it’s been trained on. So understanding that, I think that there there are likely going to be some cost issues because this is not a cheap technology. And in education, particularly in k twelve, We’re always looking for what’s the education version.

Stein Brunvand [00:12:21]:

Is is there an education version that is free or low cost? How can I get access to this In a way that is financially sustainable? And that right now, it seems a little difficult with regards to AI. But I think I don’t I don’t mean to start off with all all the the negatives. I just just some things to to consider and think about. Data privacy, of course, is another concern. But I I do think that there are a lot of potential opportunities with AI, in k twelve and beyond, you mentioned Duolingo and, tools of that nature that can provide intelligent tutors. So not something that just says, oh, you want the answer? Here’s the answer, and and good luck. But that can ask, a series of questions to help the student get to the answer and hopefully better understand the concept they’re trying to understand. That can be very powerful and can make learning more accessible for a broad range of students and can really expand the bandwidth of teachers, right, that Dave 25, 27, 30 students in the classroom and trying to meet all their needs simultaneously can be difficult.

Stein Brunvand [00:13:34]:

Different tools that can help the students, support them in their writing. So whether that be for students for whom English is not the first language or even for students for whom it is, And it still need that support and can help to go back to term we used earlier, scaffold that writing. Again, not by doing the writing for the students, But by providing them questions and prompts to consider and helping, model writing For them, so they can become, more efficient in that area.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:14:06]:

And now when when you start to think about what It may be the same, what may be different when we think about a higher education context?

Stein Brunvand [00:14:14]:

Well, I so I I go back to the the concerns about A cheating perhaps because since COVID, there there’s more and more online courses, more and more online learning. And so there were concerns about about cheating even before generative AI became such a big deal, And so that has just intensified that even more. I sit on a a task force, a generative AI task force on the campus, and it Seems like each meeting, when we come together, someone shares another example of something either they tried out themselves to see how easy would it be to get an answer or to Solve a a complex, problem they had on an exam, and and they’re always shocked to see that It it’s quite possible to do with generative AI. And so that’s something to think about. But I think that at the higher ed level, because we’ve got Students that are they’re they’re adults. I realized that in in k twelve that, technically, you could you could classify some students in high school as adults. But In higher ed, we’ve got adults that we’re working with. They’re more independent learners.

Stein Brunvand [00:15:18]:

They often have more on their plates as far as, things outside of, school that’s going Bonni, and those pressures sometime can can lead people to taking shortcuts. But I think if we, if we work with Students more proactively to help them learn how to use generative AI in positive and constructive ways and be right upfront about it, Then I think that that’s overall gonna lead to a better outcome, and I think that’s while we can do that at k 12, I think there are more opportunities And perhaps, we have more responsibility to do that in higher ed working with adult learners.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:15:55]:

I bet that that task Force that you’re on must be fascinating because my understanding is it’s interdisciplinary. And what are some examples that come to your mind when you you’re hearing from others and also your own experience of what are just some of the ways in which generative AI is contributing and has the possibility to contribute in those positive and constructive ways. I realized I could just stop talking and come back, and you could probably still be going 4 hours from now, but just Just a stream of consciousness, what’s coming to mind for you?

Stein Brunvand [00:16:25]:

Yeah. So the the committee is, the task force is intentionally, interdisciplinary, and and I think that’s that’s The real power of the the group. So, we’ve heard my colleague in computer, science, engineering computer science Talk about a coding class that he teaches and how he’s seeing coding from students that he’s he’s never seen before. And, again, he’s encouraging them. He’s He’s providing guidelines in his assignments so that he’s upfront with them about, here’s how I would suggest you use CHAT gpt Or or we have UMGPT at the University of Michigan to, help, support you as you develop code, for this particular assignment. Right? So he’s very upfront with them about it. But then I also have colleagues that teach writing in our College of Art, Science, and Letters Talk about their concerns because their their assignments are so writing intensive. It’s not realistic to say, well, Whenever you want students to do a writing assignment, just make sure they’re writing there in class right in front of you so you can watch and make sure they don’t they don’t cheat, but that’s just not realistic.

Stein Brunvand [00:17:33]:

And so having to brainstorm and think about how could how could you redesign some of those assessments, again, to be intentional with students And help them perhaps utilize these technologies without the technology doing the work for them. And and then then for me, in the College of Education, Health and Human Services, I’m coming at it from the perspective of, not surprisingly, how do we prepare the next crop of teachers that we are preparing to think about How they can integrate AI in their teaching going forward with with, k 12 students. So, it it we have some very interesting discussions. We also have folks there that are thinking about it from an academic integrity standpoint. Right? And and so they’re having to deal with cases being brought before them Where people are being accused of of cheating, but how do we determine what the evidence is other than A faculty member saying, this just doesn’t look like the student’s writing. Right? And so then how do we how do we negotiate our way through those types of situations?

Bonni Stachowiak [00:18:40]:

Would you mind sharing a few ways that you make use of generative AI in your life?

Stein Brunvand [00:18:47]:

Yes. So a colleague of mine, we’ve We’ve been working to revise. We have a master’s in educational technology and a bachelor’s in instructional technology, and we’ve been revising both the programs. We’re gonna rebrand them as degrees in instructional design and learning technologies. And one of the ways we’ve been using generative AI is to help us come up with course descriptions, learning objectives, a program overview as well, as a first pass, as a 1st draft, so to speak. And what’s really helpful is because we we both have the backgrounds in this area, Then it’s easier for us to look at what the content that is provided to us and kind of interrogate that a little bit. And It’s not that we we couldn’t come up with these course descriptions and and program the program overview on our own, But having, coming up with a a reasonable prompt to give chat gpt and have it spit something out at us that we can look at as a starting point In a matter of seconds and start to to pick that part of pick that apart a little bit and revise it, it really speeds up the process. And it’s It’s been the case, on multiple occasions where there are things that we hadn’t considered that come up.

Stein Brunvand [00:20:04]:

And so it’s It’s almost been like pulling in another expert to say, well, have you thought about this? And and so we can We can pick and choose what we like, we can revise, and it’s it’s really sped up the the process of curriculum redesign for us in that case.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:20:21]:

Yeah. And I certainly don’t wanna parse words with you, but maybe not bringing in another expert, but bringing in an apprentice who has instantaneous access to a bunch of different experts, but for whom they cannot be trusted to actually synthesize Those experts. But since you and your colleague are already familiar with the thinkers and the researchers and the experts could Then yourself, probably in a matter of seconds go, oh, no. That one nope. Never heard of that person. So you can suss it out.

Stein Brunvand [00:20:54]:

Yeah. As soon as soon as I said the word expert, I thought maybe they can edit that out of the podcast because I did I yes. I did not need to apply that. Even though I said it, I did not mean to imply that I I view AI as an expert Bonni anything. But yeah. Exactly. You’re you’re right. As another Another data point, another form of information that then we can we can revise as needed.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:21:16]:

I just feel like there are so many people who are Listening to this podcast who are hearing so much about artificial intelligence, but aren’t actually themselves using it, but for whom it evokes so many emotions. Our our identities are so wrapped up in what we do and especially when we care. And I I’ve never met anybody who listens to this podcast who doesn’t care about their students, about their own sense of integrity of what they bring to their work and their care for students. And so it’s it can be difficult. So I I thank you for sharing that because it’s just such a good example. I I find myself feeling Sometimes embarrassed to admit, I I in fact, sorry people that I work for. I’m about to admit something. They just just to bring this to light.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:22:00]:

I I Work with our provost, we put out a a video once a month called Good News v u, and I just drafted the first Of of this this month’s video using it. And I tweak more than half of it because it doesn’t sound like how he writes. And and by the way, he also then, I am his own chat GPT because he always changes it too, but it’s it’s like it’s it’s faster for me to do that. And then I had to tweak it a little bit from there. But I I guess I I sort of feel like if we can start to take away some of the stigma From experimenting with it and using it, then maybe it doesn’t have to feel quite so both scary and also threatening. I would like to say though that on the other side of the spectrum, I do get really kind of may maybe upset about people who think that That the answer to it is just hook a student up to one of these for profit companies. Is it the The you know, you get the textbook and then you get the simulations and then you get the case studies, and every time they’re adding on 100 of dollars to a student’s cost, And the professor goes, oh, but this is great though, because it does all the grading. AI does all the grading for me.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:23:11]:

I don’t have to do anything, and I’m thinking, but then What, like, what are we doing here? So I don’t I don’t know if you have any thoughts on you talk about cheating. That’s a really that’s an important word. It’s a very Precise word to use. That is the word that many educators use to describe what students are doing. I keep getting curious, How come I don’t I’ve never heard anyone accuse a professor of cheating when what feels like it’s the same thing, but it must not be. I mean, I don’t know. What are your thoughts on on that side of things? Because, yes, it lets us differentiate things, but then at what point are you Not at all important in in in playing a role in these students’ lives.

Stein Brunvand [00:23:53]:

Right. Yeah. I’m I’m I’m not at all in favor of removing that that human element Whether you’re teaching online, hybrid, face to face, yes. I think it’s great to use tools that allow you to be more productive and more efficient. But when when they we get into, having AI do the bulk of the grading for us, then we’re not learning about our students. We’re not learning what we need to know about our students to truly help them and provide them with feedback. And so I’ve I’ve had students say on multiple occasions, I don’t get it, or I’m I don’t understand this. Right? And that requires me to ask several follow-up questions.

Stein Brunvand [00:24:29]:

Could you be more specific? But if If AI is doing all this work for me, then I never get to have the interaction with the student to better understand What are they missing? Because learning that can often teach me what I need to do differently in my instruction. Because if 1 student’s not understanding something, It’s likely there are multiple students not understanding something, and it’s probably at least partly tied to me maybe not explaining things as clearly as I thought I had Or in a way that resonates with with the students. So, yeah, I wouldn’t I wouldn’t wanna miss out on that human interaction. I think You you talked a bit about stigma, and I think that’s that’s a a great word to use for for this. It reminds me of some other work I’m doing with another colleague where We’re looking to develop a a lesson of sorts or approach to how she might use AI with her class Where she’s teaching students about unit planning. How to how to develop a a whole unit for a particular class. And with unit planning and lesson planning, we definitely want students to understand the core elements of a lesson plan and a unit plan. But we also realize that many school districts come with a prescribed curriculum.

Stein Brunvand [00:25:44]:

Here’s the lesson plan for Dave. These are the materials you need. Here are the learning objectives. This is what you’re teaching today. So the actual writing of the lesson plan or the unit plan may not be as important as being able to understand how to adapt that lesson or that unit plan to meet the needs of your specific students. And also being able to understand how how do I learn as I how do I learn as I’m implementing that particular lesson Our unit plan so I can make changes going back to my dissertation and and the scaffolding and helping students, Pre service teachers notice when you need to make some changes, when are people not getting what you’re talking about. And so using AI to do some iterative Prompting to narrow down. Okay.

Stein Brunvand [00:26:33]:

I wanna create a lesson plan to help teach 3rd graders about the solar system. Great. I get some ideas. Well, now I’ve I’ve got students for whom English is not the first language. Can you provide some ideas about how I might address that population of students? Okay. Can you give me some more hands on activities? Because I know my students really benefit from hands on learning. Can you give me some more ideas of how I might differentiate instruction? Right? And so Asking the kinds of questions that need to be asked based on your knowledge of your students and how you need to adapt the instruction to meet the needs of those students. And and getting back to stigma, not being made to feel like you’re somehow cheating if you are asking for this technology to help you in this process.

Stein Brunvand [00:27:19]:

And one one example, I was I was doing a a presentation basically talking about This whole idea of using AI to to help draft a lesson plan, I said, how many of you drove here today for for this event. Everyone raised their hands. I said, well, do you feel like you cheated by riding driving a car or a truck instead of just walking? Because you use that technology to get yourself here, that doesn’t seem fair. And, of course, no one thought that it was cheating to ride in a motorized vehicle. And so I said it’s I realize it’s not a one to 1 relationship here, but in in some cases, this this is the same kind of thing that Just because we’re using the technology effectively to allow us to do something, doesn’t mean we’re we’re somehow cheating the system because we’re making it easier on ourselves. We’re we’re trying to work more more effectively, working smarter, not not harder as they say.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:28:11]:

I love how you brought it all the way back to your doctoral research because that’s exactly where my mind was taking it because I I have seen many many lesson plans. And for every lesson plan, there are a 1,000,000,000 Different ways that, and so the the quality of that experience is going to be vastly different Even if you did have the same lesson plan and and especially, I think it’s such a great illustration where you talk about the commonalities where you might walk into a school district and be expected. And and by the way, or in a higher education classroom, there are so many vastly different ways that institutions for higher learning will approach the degree to which you get to select the course materials or, you know, modify the syllabus in any way and that can look vastly different. And we also know that even if you had the same syllabus, same exact Canvas course shell, same exact whatever it is, it can look so different depending on who’s teaching. And and you said this earlier, who’s in the class?

Stein Brunvand [00:29:12]:

Right. Right. Understanding your students And their needs, where they’re coming from is is really critical. And then and also understand how their their past experiences, their lived experiences impact the way they approach content, the way they approach their their ideas about teaching and learning. So, Yeah. It’s all it’s all part of it.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:29:34]:

Well, this is the time in the show where we each get to share our recommendations and mine is a bit of a musical one. I have recommended in the past different tiny desk concerts, and Dave, I would like to recommend another one. I wanted to recommend the Tiny Desk Concert from Sam Smith. Sam Smith is a musician who I am only Somewhat familiar with his music. I might Bonni some days be hard pressed even to name a specific song of his. But, oh my goodness, is his Tiny Desk concert ever So much fun. He performs with an 11 person choir and 2 instrumentalists, and when you watch them, They they just look like they are having so much fun together, and he kicks off with some songs that People really would associate with him, but then he also does some other other people’s he he basically covers other musicians’ music as well. And I think my favorite song of the group is a version of a song called Unholy, Which I I guess the description says that he bundles together with Lay Me Down in which and I now I’m reading from the video’s description in which Smith performed a gorgeous duet with LaDonna Harley Peters.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:30:55]:

And they’re just They clearly know the song, unholy, and so they’re but they kinda have mixed it up a little bit for this unique context. And to watch oh, and I should I should also say that they clearly are trying to avoid saying curse words that are in maybe the original versions because they, You can see them sort of start to laugh and they sort of make a a noise instead of actually saying whatever the real word might be. And those of you that know his music really well, probably laughing at me right now. You could probably explain this to me better than I’m trying to explain it to you. All I can say, a wonderful musical performance. It’s very playful. It is very, silly and really gets your toes tapping. I cannot recommend it enough.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:31:38]:

And I’m looking forward to listening to more of his music and Cannot wait always until the next Tiny Desk concert comes out. So I’ll pass it over to you now, Stein, for whatever you’d like to recommend.

Stein Brunvand [00:31:49]:

Well, Well, thanks for that recommendation. I’ll definitely have to check that out. So what I’m going to to recommend, I thought because this is a podcast That, I couldn’t help myself to recommend another podcast.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:31:59]:

Yay.

Stein Brunvand [00:32:00]:

It really doesn’t have anything to do with, education or technology or AI, but it’s Strike Force 5.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:32:06]:

Mhmm.

Stein Brunvand [00:32:06]:

And I don’t know if you’ve you’ve heard about this. Yes. And so for those that haven’t heard about it, during the writers’ strike, 5 late night TV talk show host decided to come together and create a podcast so they could raise money for their staffs. And so it’s Stephen Colbert, Jimmy Kimmel, Jimmy Fallon, Seth Meyers, And John Oliver. And it’s very, very entertaining. You you mentioned swearing. I will let people know that there is some swearing. So if you’re offended by that, you probably don’t wanna listen, but it’s very interesting to hear them talk about their their pathways to their their positions that they’re in now And their early careers and what they went through to get to where they are.

Stein Brunvand [00:32:47]:

And also, each of them takes a turn kind of being host, Which you quickly forget who is the host of a given episode because they all just talk over each other. And and in some cases, spend a lot of time Making fun of each other, but it’s it’s quite entertaining. They do have guests on here and there. They committed to doing 12 episodes. And actually, the some of the last Couple episodes, I believe, the strike had already ended by that point, but they they kept it going. And just I found it very interesting to hear Hear them talk really unscripted without the their the the benefit of their writers, of their researchers, And just hear them share about about their experiences in show business, and you can see just how much they enjoy each other’s company. And so That was it was very very entertaining and kept me going on the commute to and from work for several several Dave, so I I recommend that.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:33:43]:

I had it in my queue, and then I saw that they stopped doing that and and the strike had ended. It so it is one that you would recommend. It’s Still gonna be more evergreen that would be enjoyable to listen to despite the time that things are a little different now?

Stein Brunvand [00:33:58]:

Yes. Yeah. Because they Well, in each episode, they might reference the the the origin of the podcast and the fact that it’s to raise money for their Staffs, it’s not a core element throughout all the podcasts.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:34:12]:

I do enjoy them quite a bit and enjoy their comedy. It would be fun to hear them in this Very, very different context, so thank you for recommending that. And, Stein, thank you so much for coming on the podcast and for sharing this way. Your example of the driving the car, I think next time I get in the car, I’m gonna be be thinking about that. I just think sometimes just Just to be able to give us different lenses to put on, I really appreciate you talking about some of the threats, some of the challenges, and then some of the Promises and and opportunities involved in doing in a nuanced and really, really helpful way. So thank you so much for your time today.

Stein Brunvand [00:34:46]:

Yes. And and thank you, Bonni, for inviting me and having me on. It’s been a very enjoyable conversation. I I very much appreciate it.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:34:55]:

Thanks once again to Stein Brunvand for such a thought provoking conversation. Today’s episode was produced by me, Bonni Stachowiak. It was edited by the ever talented Andrew Kroeger. Podcast production support was provided by Sierra Priest. If you have been listening for a while and haven’t signed up yet for the weekly email from Teaching in Higher Ed? It’s time to head over to teachinginhighered.com/subscribe. You’ll receive the most recent episodes show Show notes along with some other resources that don’t show up on the regular episode. I do appreciate you listening and being a part of the Teaching in Higher Ed community,

Teaching in Higher Ed transcripts are created using a combination of an automated transcription service and human beings. This text likely will not represent the precise, word-for-word conversation that was had. The accuracy of the transcripts will vary. The authoritative record of the Teaching in Higher Ed podcasts is contained in the audio file.