Bonni: [00:00:00] On today’s episode Dave Stachowiak and I share about ways to reduce the potential for introducing bias while grading exams.

Production Credit: [00:00:09] Produced by Innovate Learning maximizing human potential.

Bonni: [00:00:17] Welcome to this episode of Teaching in Higher Ed. This is the space where we explore the art and science of being more effective at facilitating learning. We also share ways to increase our personal productivity approaches so we can have more peace in our lives and be even more present for our students.

Bonni: [00:00:45] Welcome to episode 67. This is Bonni Stachowiak. And today I’m again joined by Davis Stachowiak. Welcome back Dave.

Dave: [00:00:52] I am glad to be back. Thanks for having me.

Bonni: [00:00:54] I just gave the first exam in actually in all of my classes but specifically today I’ll be talking about the one that has more traditional and more traditional type of an exam in it. And I learned a lot and I blogged a bit about it but one aspect I wanted to share about today on the show is just the opportunities out opportunities sounds good the potential that we all have to be biased when we’re grading exams.

Dave: [00:01:21] Yeah you had really been a teacher for me in this way in. I remember seeing you do some of these things early on and just how you tried to reduce your bias and your grading and thinking like wow that’s really interesting that you’re thinking of it that way and also a lot of work and also really cool that you did it and so I think that since those earlier days you figured out some ways to be really efficient with this as well too. So I’m excited to explore more of that today.

Bonni: [00:01:49] Yeah. And I always want to be cognisant that I’ve never completely fixed the problem because all of the things that I’m going to bring up even though I have strategies and approaches for reducing that potential bias we all have that within us.

Bonni: [00:02:01] And I think being cognizant is important to do one thing to start out talking about some of the risks of bias in grading exams. We start out with the halo effect.

Bonni: [00:02:13] And Dave I know you and I know a lot about the halo effect because it comes up in hiring and we’re interviewing someone and we discover something that we like about a lot about them and then that overflows into other areas and potentially clouds our vision. It also can happen in the reverse.

Bonni: [00:02:29] So it may be something negative about someone we learn about them early and can’t quite shake that to be able to truly evaluate their potential in a job well that comes up in terms of grading exams too.

Dave: [00:02:42] Well in the classic example of this would be on both those ends there is a student that we really like and we’ve developed a relationship with and they always participate in class and so we see their name on the beginning of the paper and even if we don’t think about it consciously or subconsciously predisposed to maybe think about oh this is going to be a good paper and the opposite is true too.

Dave: [00:03:03] So someone who’s not engaged in the class maybe has not done well in previous assignments. And so we we clicked on that paper to open it up to read it and maybe we’re already thinking like oh I hope they did better this and we’ve already got that negative bias in our minds.

Bonni: [00:03:18] We’ll be talking a little bit later about how to reduce the likelihood of being affected by the halo effect. But I want to just go on to the next one which is what I call the exam-based halo effect. So let’s assume that I’m able to reduce the halo effect related to that person.

Bonni: [00:03:34] Well I’m grading their exam I might start to experience a halo effect in itself. The exam i just gave was five essay questions and also some true false multiple choice I might add. But in particular I’m sharing about the essay portion of it here and I might go and read their first answer to those five questions and go wow rock star this person is on it.

Bonni: [00:03:58] And then have that as my lens to look at those other four questions so that’s another potential danger zone. And Dave you actually brought up this next one early which is great. Inflating our favorite students grades and I actually link in the show notes which are going to be at teachinginhighered.com/67 to a few articles that look at these various risks of bias if people want to dive in a little bit deeper.

Bonni: [00:04:24] But sure and as you said the opposite is true. I haven’t particularly found a positive connection yet with this student and that starts to be the lens that I wear when I grade his or her exam.

Dave: [00:04:36] The other challenge I have and you and I were talking for we started recording I don’t do a lot of traditional what I would think of exams when I’ve taught before because I teach a lot teach a lot of the grad level so it tends to be more a paper project based courses and curricula.

Dave: [00:04:49] And what I’ve found is a struggle for me and I don’t think I’ve addressed this effectively in past classes is I’ll read two or three papers and I’ll get a sense of like how the how the class is doing overall and the assignment. And you know sometimes as instructor you do a good job of signing an assignment and you get what you expect and sometimes you don’t get exactly what you expected.

Dave: [00:05:14] It’s apparent after you’ve read four or five papers that you could frame something a little differently as an instructor to get a little bit different result. And I know there had been times that some of those earlier papers that I’ve read have either gotten a little higher grade or a little lower grade because I haven’t yet got a sense of the how the class is going.

Dave: [00:05:34] And in reality it shouldn’t matter because the rubric should be there but in practice I know there’s times that I’ve probably been a little easier a little harder because I didn’t yet have a sense of how the entire class had performed on that paper what I expected or how clear I was and the kind of feedback I’ve had to have dialogue with people after grade so that’s that’s the thing I also think about to what I’m when I’m grading and starting to read through exams and papers.

Bonni: [00:06:01] That can happen you’re describing it as within you grading the exam. But it also could happen just within having graded their past assignments that.

Bonni: [00:06:10] Vikram David Amar calls this the expectations effect very similar to the halo effect but I’ve graded five assignments from the student before I’m now going to expect that he or she is likely to do just as poorly or just as well on the assignment or on the exam that that I’m grading and then Dave you and I know this last one well.

Dave: [00:06:29] The exhaustion factor. Everyone I ever talked to who teaches college loves grading for hours and hours and hours and hours and hours. They just love it.

Bonni: [00:06:39] That doesn’t mean that this research hasn’t been done. But I actually did go out and try to find some research for how people’s tiredness affects their grading. But I mean it is one of those things seems so obvious but I wasn’t able to locate any studies. I imagine that would be a hard one to construct but I mean my gosh when we are just exhausted that’s not the best time to be grading.

Dave: [00:07:02] Yeah and I don’t know what to do about it other than just being being conscious of it.

Bonni: [00:07:09] Well I’m going to be sharing with you what to do.

Dave: [00:07:10] Oh you are there we go see. Keep listening.

Bonni: [00:07:12] Keep listening.

Dave: [00:07:13] That’s the hook to just get you to keep listening.

Bonni: [00:07:17] Now actually speak of which. Unless you have any other risks of bias and grading exams that you want to add Dave will shift over to how to prevent this or at least reduce the likelihood of it.

Dave: [00:07:28] I think the only thing I’d add is what you said earlier is you’re never going to eliminate this entirely we’re all human beings and as good as a job as you do is of reducing by should never get eliminated. So being conscious of the fact that you’re human it’s going to be there. What can you do to minimize that. Which is what we’re going to spend the rest time talking about.

Bonni: [00:07:45] It’s the happy side now.

Dave: [00:07:46] Yes.

Bonni: [00:07:47] Or at least happier.

Dave: [00:07:48] Much happier.

Bonni: [00:07:49] One of the main things that I do and I just do this I’m committed to doing this is blind grading and of course it depends on whether we’re administering our exams on some sort of a handwritten paper format or if we’re administering our exams on an LMS.

Bonni: [00:08:06] But there are solutions. In either case in my case so far with the majority of my classes I’m surprised to say this as Taki as I am but I use for these foundations class I teach a principal principals a marketing class that’s really just the foundations of marketing.

Bonni: [00:08:23] And then I teach Introduction to Business also just a lot of terminology it’s a very breadth class it’s not a. Neither of those classes are real depth classes and it makes sense to have some multiple choice questions that are just going to assess basic vocabulary and terms and then those essay questions that I attempt to make very application oriented of some of the key key things that they should be learning in the class.

Bonni: [00:08:49] So what I do is I use these course the fancy scan trons that the model number is called 886E. But it’s got the scantron on the left hand side and then on the right hand side is just a booklet but it’s just a flip out. One time booklet that winds up there’s four pages that they can write on.

Bonni: [00:09:08] And I put a sticky note over the place where they would write their name and the sticky note has the version of the exam that tend to do probably two exams depending on the size of the class two different versions of the exam. So it’s either an A or B a one or two.

Bonni: [00:09:24] So again the sticky note the only thing I see on that sticky note is which version of the exam that’s being graded that way I don’t put it through the scantron it’s the wrong version and then the sticky note is there to cover the student’s name. I don’t want to know whose exam it is that I’m grading.

Bonni: [00:09:39] And I sometimes actually if I used to bite of a stick you know I can still see their name and then I just put another sticky note so that I can then shuffle them back up because I don’t want to know whose exam I’m grading.

Dave: [00:09:50] This is I’ve seen you at various stages of this process and sticky notes later how safe are stacks of sticky notes. And the one thing I’m not sure I’m clear on is how I’ve never seen it start to finish though so you get the stack of exams and then you just go through it sticky note all of them at the beginning is that after you get the exams back or how does that word you have the students do that. How does it work.

Bonni: [00:10:08] I’m so glad you’re asking this. This is less on the efficient or on the bias and more on the efficiency thing at the start of every semester. Every student needs to bring me however many scan trons for however many exams we’re going to have that semester. So in the case of the class I’m talking about today they’re going to do three exams this semester. They brought me about a week before the exam.

Bonni: [00:10:30] They brought me three scan trons got it then I made the photocopies of the first exam and I took the exam inside of each one of the scan trons right side of that little flap that that thing. And then I put the sticky notes on that way I can also.

Bonni: [00:10:47] And this is a topic for another day but it reduces the likelihood of people sitting next to each other who are taking the same version and then copying from one another.

Bonni: [00:10:56] And I can see from the front of the room I could probably see from the hallway that I make the colors of the sticky notes drastically different from one another. So there’s no doubt I could tell visually looking at the entire class. If by some either mistake on my part or dishonesty on their part people are trying to sit next to each other who are taking the same exam.

Dave: [00:11:15] They’re very strategic on the side no idea there was someone out so much thought that had gone into this.

Bonni: [00:11:20] What I do is I take all the version ones because they’re all in the stack now. Right. Although version 1 exams tucked in the scan trons with the sticky notes on top. All the versions to an eye make it go every other so that when I’m passing them out in the class it can happen as soon as quickly as possible.

Dave: [00:11:37] Hmm interesting.

Bonni: [00:11:38] Yeah it was maybe more than some people wanted to know but I am sharing it I’m risking sharing it because it has saved me so much time and so much headache. And then I think to be fair to the students it gets them the exams quicker.

Dave: [00:11:51] Well the interesting thing too is it’s not like a secret you tell them that you’re doing that like you’re using blind grading so that they also know that when you are grading their exam that you don’t know who they are. Yep and how do you work through the handwriting thing.

Dave: [00:12:07] I mean do you reckon you have enough students say you probably don’t recognize handwriting as much but.

Bonni: [00:12:12] There are only a few cases where I know who it is that I’m taking. I have had some students who are just so far below the mean of the class in terms of their abilities to write that I can tell and I both mean physically their writing is very childlike and I also mean their ability to string together a sentence. Unfortunately there has been I would say over the course of a year. Maybe I’m talking about a student. Over the course of an entire year all my classes. That’s where I can go.

Bonni: [00:12:44] Unfortunately I know who this has been. There also have sometimes been students from other countries who are writing. They may just not quite word things the same way that we would and don’t necessary that’s not what I’m measuring in terms of my grading.

Bonni: [00:12:58] So it doesn’t affect their grade but in those cases I also know who they are and maybe to their maybe for them it’s a positive thing because they’re usually quite bright and intelligent and is just like a quirky language difference that we have but interesting. Yeah but but for the most part no I can’t tell how it is.

Bonni: [00:13:15] That I was talking mostly about my practices for written exams. But I also want to mention that whatever learning management system your university is using you should check in and see if they have the opportunity to do blind grading within it.

Bonni: [00:13:28] We use moodle at one of the institutions that I teach and at my main institution and in it in some recent version we were never the most current version. So I know for at least a couple of versions of it it offers blind grading networks great. I don’t know whose essay it is I’m great in that. That’s a nice nice technique there too.

Dave: [00:13:46] Is that available through some of the like. Turn it like turn it in for example can you go through when you’re doing grading and c have it removed the name because sometimes people put their names like write on the paper and all that is their options.

Bonni: [00:13:58] I don’t believe so and turn it in. I’ve not seen that as an option but if someone listening knows different I would love to hear.

Dave: [00:14:03] I’d love to know too because that’s something I’ve never I would do everything virtually with things like it and when I’ve taught classes so that’s that’s an obstacle I’ve had for implementing that.

Bonni: [00:14:13] If you really wanted to you could have it be submitted and middle not through Turnitin in but then you’re not going to have the plagiarism protections into there.

Dave: [00:14:22] Exactly.

Bonni: [00:14:23] Another technique to reduce potential bias is to grade by question not by exam. I was speaking of earlier that one potential is not based on the person because let’s assume we’re using y and grading. We don’t know whose exam we’re grading but we start grading question number one. The migo number two then we go number three. We’re starting to introduce our own bias just based on the quality of the most recent answer that we read. And this is a practice that I know works and there’s some research that shows that that would reduce our bias and I don’t do it.

Dave: [00:14:55] Oh and so why don’t you do it.

Bonni: [00:14:58] I will admit it takes too long.

Dave: [00:15:01] Because you so in that case you’d have like a essay question one you’d read on one exam and you’d go to the next exam read essay question one for the whole so like 90 people.

Bonni: [00:15:10] Yes.

Dave: [00:15:11] Yeah.

Bonni: [00:15:11] Times how many questions.

Dave: [00:15:14] That’s the kind of thing we’re an online through one of the LMA says if that was automated that would be really cool. You could do.

Bonni: [00:15:20] Yeah I know it works. I know it’s one other thing to decrease. It is not worth the opportunity cost to me.

Dave: [00:15:27] Well I’m glad you mentioned that too because there I mean there. I’m trying to think of a better term than longi low hanging fruit.

Dave: [00:15:34] But maybe there’s one if you just add one thing out of this conversation today that helps you to reduce your bias. That’s great. It doesn’t mean you have to do every single thing because it may not be practical in your situation and with the logistics of your classroom.

Bonni: [00:15:45] This next one I also logistically just haven’t had the opportunity to do but it is inner Rayder reliability practices so we know that when we grade exams we’re grading them through our own ideas in our mind about what a correct answer should look like or what a good enough answer should look like.

Bonni: [00:16:04] And my case many times these essay questions at the end are out of 10 points. Well who’s to say what’s the devastation in eight and a nine. And one of the ways we can do that through qualitative measures is in greater reliability and have someone else another set of people grade them.

Bonni: [00:16:21] And actually we can then even begin to educate ourselves and pull out the outliers and say well why did you think this one was so high. And I thought it was so low and we can actually improve the quality overall of our grading and if we’re teaching multiple people or teaching the same class that can really help improve that too it’s a really good practice.

Bonni: [00:16:38] I’m just not in a position where I necessarily have colleagues who are too interested in doing that. And I am the only one who teaches this particular across I’m sharing as an example today. One of the things I have done just because I don’t have colleagues who necessarily would find that to be a fun thing to do in the afternoon or in the morning.

Bonni: [00:16:55] Or really anytime is I have had people in the business world take the exams or at least look at them and say what am I asking that you don’t really think people should know at this level or I think that helps too. Not necessarily on the grading front. Maybe I should try it on the grading front actually start to reach out to business professionals and what kind of grade would you give them.

Dave: [00:17:16] Oh interesting. I didn’t know you had done that. You ask me sometimes on things.

Bonni: [00:17:20] On the test itself. Oh I guess I do on the answers.

Dave: [00:17:23] Because I am the source of all wisdom.

Bonni: [00:17:25] Of course.

Dave: [00:17:26] Every. Business question of course.

Bonni: [00:17:27] Of course.

Dave: [00:17:27] But.

Bonni: [00:17:28] You say you know we had something like that just the other night because I did I said it was not for this class. It was a different class and I said I was actually and I am a bad person. I was making fun of the students answer and then you said.

Dave: [00:17:41] But in your defense you were not doing it in a public forum just to me.

Bonni: [00:17:44] It was privately and I’m pretty sure that at tattoo’d Professor Kevin Gannon said that’s OK when he was on the show you.

Dave: [00:17:51] Remember that.

Bonni: [00:17:52] He said in the break room the watercooler were allowed to do that.

Bonni: [00:17:56] But you came back and you said no I think this is what she means. And then and then later on in her answer she proved that you were right that that actually said what she meant.

Dave: [00:18:05] Yeah I think I said it’s like well it’s kind of the start of the absurd sort of doored what maybe is the right.

Bonni: [00:18:12] And that’s actually so good to when you teach your students to use examples because it was by her giving an example that I could tell that you were correct in your assessment of what her interest or language meant. Yes. So that’s one other practice. We have a few more to go one. And this is back to our energy level.

Bonni: [00:18:29] If we’re just exhausted that’s not a good time to be grading so blocking off time for grading and our calendar during peak energy times. I know for me a peak energy time it’s going to be right after I get done exercising and on days when I am not in the classroom I’ll tend to exercise in the morning come home from the gym with the kids. The child caregiver arrives and then I can get started right away with something that requires that high energy and focus that comes from those great endorphins.

Dave: [00:18:58] And can I say something that maybe is somewhat related to grading with integrity to is also giving feedback in a timely way and I know this is always a challenge for that and especially for Ubani like how many students you have. I get it. I get off easy in some ways. And more challenging in others when I teach a class it’s adjunct and it’s a master’s level class and there are often five weeks.

Dave: [00:19:18] So if the first assignment isn’t due until a week two and I take a week and a half to grade it it’s like practically the end of the class before someone even has one. First Data point of how they’re doing in the classes getting some sort of formal feedback.

Dave: [00:19:33] So I think that that’s something really to consider if you are running classes that are more abbreviated and they know very much the model a lot of universities are doing more you know what’s the word I’m looking for a.

Bonni: [00:19:44] Shorter.

Dave: [00:19:45] Shorter there’s a better word for this though. I don’t know why I did any classes where you’ve got this really fast schedule you need to also get grading back fast. So I try to make a practice whenever things come in as I’ll block out when I write the syllabus and I teach in a class for five weeks I’ll block out time that next morning after the papers come in so I can literally get them back to students within 24 hours.

Dave: [00:20:08] And that way we can even talk about it at the next class period and I can talk about you know what I saw the papers and so that comes along with integrity too of like it’s it you want to give people feedback in a short class upfront quickly so they have a chance to do something different on the next assignment.

Bonni: [00:20:23] You spoke about this earlier but we also want to be transparent and over communicate our practices and the rationale you mentioned when I’m passing out those exams that have the sticky notes I’m explaining this is so I’m not biased when I grade your exam I don’t want to know who that is.

Bonni: [00:20:37] That’s why the sticky notes here. There will still be some that won’t get hurt until the next exam. But that’s way over communication saying that not just once but every time I do an exam to remind them.

Bonni: [00:20:48] And then lastly to your point Dave you were talking about how when we grade the earlier exams in the process we might that that’s we don’t have a of a sample size yet to get a whole sense of the class and even though we wish that doesn’t affect things it still does sometimes I will oftentimes save the first two maybe three exams that I graded first and go back and look at them again after I upgraded all the other ones and see if there’s any of that going on there and if I need to make any adjustments.

Dave: [00:21:18] Oh interesting. And do you ever make adjustments on that based on what you’ve read.

Bonni: [00:21:22] Oh sure.

Dave: [00:21:23] Oh really. And what do you find that you fall do you find that you were too easy too hard to train easier. Any one side.

Bonni: [00:21:31] I.

Dave: [00:21:33] Just depend on the assignment?

Bonni: [00:21:35] It depends. I think mostly too hard although sometimes I have that bias where the first question was so good and then going on to the others I probably amplified those which is back to probably I should take care of my exam based biases but it takes so long.

Dave: [00:21:50] Interesting.

Bonni: [00:21:52] Anything else Dave that you want to add about having less bias when we are grading exams.

Dave: [00:21:58] Yeah I think just to reiterate what we mentioned earlier of take. Do one thing. So do something. Maybe it’s covering up the name or maybe it is thinking about the process you’re using what you actually said another grade or the timing of any one of those executed well will do you probably better as far as reducing bias than trying to do a little bit of a bunch of them.

Bonni: [00:22:18] I’m sure Dave and I missed things too. We would welcome any additional ideas you have for us and the rest of the community at teachinginhighered.com/67.

Bonni: [00:22:29] This is the point in the show in which we do our recommendations and I want to recommend. I know I’ve mentioned before on the show that I really love music and that’s something that I like to always have going before I get class and sometimes when they break up into groups I’ll play a little bit of music too.

Bonni: [00:22:46] Well one recommendation I want to have for all of you is to ask your students what they want to listen to before class. And I was just introduced to a new artist by a student who I asked that question to yesterday and here’s who he introduced me to. This is Leon Bridges. He’s singing Coming Home. But we played the whole album and we didn’t have time to play the whole album.

Bonni: [00:23:11] But throughout the day when I played the whole album and it’s great. And I was so glad that I asked him and now I have that connection with them and the new album to listen to on Apple Music.

Dave: [00:23:20] I love that human connection you bring into the classroom with your students like cars play music and. Talking to them about what’s of interest to them personally. It’s just really neat that you do that.

Bonni: [00:23:31] That’s really a selfish thing. Just want more good groups to listen to.

Dave: [00:23:35] Everybody wins.

Bonni: [00:23:37] Everybody wins. It’s a great video actually on YouTube I linked to it on iTunes but you can see him on YouTube. It’s a great great kind of old school video.

Dave: [00:23:45] Nice nice. Very cool.

Bonni: [00:23:48] All right Dave what would you like to recommend to the listeners today.

Dave: [00:23:51] I am going to actually recommend a show for my podcast Coaching for Leaders which airs every week like the show. And I recently aired an episode called How to be present and productive and it was with a guest named Jeremy Kubicek and he’s the author of the new book for leaders Five Gears: How to be Present and Productive When There is Never Enough Time which is a very attractive title to me but was really fun was the conversation that came out of it.

Dave: [00:24:16] He’s basically looked at how you interact with people and this is just as applicable for faculty of how you interact with people on a daily basis and what what mode you are in depending on what’s most appropriate for the situation.

Dave: [00:24:30] And he uses a driving analogy the five years like a stick shift of a car in order to communicate that. And it’s one of those models that I just like it just intuitively really made sense to me and helped me think about the time and where I put my energy each day and definitely give me lots to think about.

Dave: [00:24:48] So if that is of interest to you and you’re looking for a good model for how to think about how you’re using your time well and how to be more productive coachingforleaders.com/211 episode 211 is where to go.

Bonni: [00:25:01] Since Dave and I both have our doctorates in leadership. I will confess to having them bias again. Sometimes you’ll have someone on your show and I go.

Bonni: [00:25:10] Oh it’s another four things to do this and five things do this and that kind of shut off and I did that a little bit with this idea in the beginning because it seemed like oh it’s going to be another one of those self-help book kind of things and not research based.

Bonni: [00:25:27] And probably not going to be particularly helpful but it kind of went into it with more of a negative mindset but I do enjoy listening to you talk. So I think he kept with it and thing you married. I was really blown away though because even though I mean it’s a simple model and it is of course an analogy.

Bonni: [00:25:44] So it’s not going to be completely research based but it just to introduce the power of introducing vocabulary that is in common and a culture can be so helpful and one of the things he talked about was with his co-workers.

Bonni: [00:25:58] How sometimes some of them one of them is in a different gear than he is and it’s not appropriate for the situation. And they literally even have signed language they’ll do to each other of holding up the number of fingers for the gears. I don’t want to give too much away other than to say just the power that that can be.

Bonni: [00:26:11] I think this would help people listening both in terms of communicating better with faculty with students and then also in your own families and with loved ones just being able to forgive the extension of the analogy but shift gears to just have healthier relationships and be more healthy yourself.

Dave: [00:26:29] Yeah and I think about that a lot in terms of the show of what do what can be brought in that’s not just kind of like a three step or five step thing but what’s really unique and different and I really like this model that it’s unique and different and it frames things in a really simple way. So that’s my recommendation for this week.

Bonni: [00:26:43] Well thanks so much Dave for being back on the show today. It was great having you here talking about things we can do to reduce bias. And I just want to let people listening.

Bonni: [00:26:52] Now even though I have enjoyed having Dave here these last two weeks there’s going to be gone for walks I’ve got some great guests booked for the coming week so lots of great topics to look forward to. I hope you’ll keep listening and we’ll see you around soon.

Bonni: [00:27:07] As always if you have yet to subscribe to the Teaching in Higher Ed weekly update. You can do that at teachinginhighered.com/subscribe. Why would you want to do that. Well you’re going to get the show notes to every episode automatically in your e-mail along with an article on Tetun or productivity.

Bonni: [00:27:26] And when you first subscribe you’ll get the free guide for 19 tools to help you use technology to facilitate learning.

Dave: [00:27:34] Which by the way is a very cool guide. So if you haven’t got that Bonni wrote the whole thing yourself got lots of ideas on how you use things.

Bonni: [00:27:42] And would also love to have other people be able to discover the show beyond you so if you’d share it with friends and also consider writing a review or rating it on iTunes you can do that at teachinginhighered.com/iTunes. And we’d love your feedback at teachinginhighered.com/feedback. Thanks for listening.

Teaching in Higher Ed transcripts are created using a combination of an automated transcription service and human beings. This text likely will not represent the precise, word-for-word conversation that was had. The accuracy of the transcripts will vary. The authoritative record of the Teaching in Higher Ed podcasts is contained in the audio file.