Bonni Stachowiak [00:00:00]:

Today on episode number 525 of the Teaching in Higher Ed podcast, 4 common arguments against DEI and how to dismantle them with Amira Barger.

Production Credit: Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Welcome to this episode of Teaching in Higher Ed. I’m Bonni Stachowiak, and this is the space where we explore the art and science of being more effective at facilitating learning. We also share ways to improve our productivity approaches so we can have more peace in our lives and be even more present for our students. I am so excited to be welcoming to the show today, Amira k s Barger. She’s a strategic communications and marketing counselor working at the nexus of health equity, DEI, and employee engagement to aid organizations in addressing society’s most pressing public issues. She’s a multi award winning executive vice president at a global consulting firm, providing senior diversity, equity, and inclusion and communications council.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:01:21]:

She is a scholar practitioner and thought leader who brings strategic communications, evidence that reaches stakeholders, mobilizes the community, and inspires action. She’s a marketing communications and change management professor at California State University East Bay. She is also a data informed organizational architect who leverages design thinking to advance DEI and solve complex challenges. Amira contributes writing on black women in the workplace, black motherhood, and actionable steps both individuals and institutions can take to advance black liberation. In her spare time, Amira and her family collect stamps in the National Park Service passport cancellation book. They plan to visit all 417 national parks in the US, hashtag road trip warriors. She lives in Benicia, California with Jonathan, her life partner of 20 plus years, their daughter, Audrey, and 2 furry sons, Bucky and Potato. Amira Barger, welcome to Teaching and Higher Ed.

Amira Barger [00:02:31]:

Thanks so much for having me. It’s great to be here. Thanks for saying making me sound so great.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:02:35]:

I know. I know. Well, 1 thing that doesn’t come out in your bio, well, there’s 2 things. 1 is we might actually hear Bucky or Potato during this interview, so we’ll have to see what what pops up.

Amira Barger [00:02:46]:

They’re trained to be quiet, but, you know You know.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:02:49]:

You never know.

Amira Barger [00:02:50]:

What they do.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:02:50]:

And then the second thing is that we know each other outside of me being interested in your writing and your work. Do you wanna talk about how we met each other?

Amira Barger [00:02:59]:

Yes. You were and still are to this day my favorite professor. Aw. And I took your I think the first class I ever took with you was the intro to sales management class once upon a time. And you captured me, and I just kept taking classes with you ever since.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:03:18]:

Oh, that’s great. I love that. A lot of people don’t realize necessarily that I teach business classes. Haven’t been teaching too many sales or marketing classes. Mostly, I’m more in management type topics these Dave, but that was secretly, like, a class that was kind of the idea that we’re all influencing all the time, and you certainly have drawn so much on your own ability to influence. And I love every time I get on social media to see something that you’ve done, including the column that we’re gonna be talking about Dave, 4 common arguments against DEI and how to dismantle them. And let’s just start out with the first 1 here. DEI threatens meritocracy.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:03:55]:

Talk to us about this particular argument and how we might dismantle it.

Amira Barger [00:04:01]:

Yes. So this 1 is a really interesting 1. There’s this, starkly held belief that across our institutions, whether it’s school or the workplace here in the US, that it’s based on meritocracy, that people rise through the ranks based on their merit, whether that merit is their innate skills, their educational background, their presentation ability, you name it. And many people who are at the margins, if you will, so women, members of the LGBTQ plus community, the disabled community, black and brown, and Asian people, often know from lived experience that that’s not true, that the playing field is not level, and that there are biases that leaders and individuals across any and every institution have to mitigate. Right? There’s a bias for where you went to school. If someone hears the name Harvard versus the name Cal State Poly, they’re going to have different perceptions of that person’s ability, different perceptions about their experience based on where they went to school. And so this idea of merit is 1 that we really have to pause and be very intentional about. And the work of DEI is about trying to level the playing field.

Amira Barger [00:05:26]:

We know from the history of how the US was built that, redlining, for example, the the lines that were drawn on our maps have helped to dictate where people live and where you live and go to elementary school and high school can impact where you end up going to college or if you go to college at all, which plays into when, where, or if you are hired. And when, where, and if you work at a big corporation, a small business, and that impacts your economic mobility, and that impacts your network and the people that you know that you can gain skills from, mentorship, sponsorship. All of those things come into consideration. And so the work of DEI is really about trying to take a look at the process and the practice of hiring and promoting people and take a look at the different things people bring to the table besides their named university that they went to, the degree that they have, and the other kinds of skills, talents, lived experience that they can bring to a corporation to help them grow, to thrive, and to do a really good job.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:06:42]:

As you’re talking, I’m I’m reminded just of all of the backlash that we’re seeing in the US and all around the world against the work that you do, that you’ve dedicated so much of your career to. And and so I guess on this first 1, how often might we expect to hear that? And do you have a a principle that you take into mind, either when it’s in your teaching capacity or in your consulting capacity in terms of the extent to which you want to press against it and attempt to change minds? Or is there another approach where I’m thinking by the way, when when I had Karen Costa on to talk about climate change pedagogy, Her voice is in my head a little bit, because I was saying like, oh, but I teach somewhere or maybe somewhere down the road from where I teach. They don’t always even believe that this is happening, and that’s where she goes, I’m not even gonna spend the time there. Let’s spend the time on the people who actually can create this change. So I don’t know. I don’t wanna put it into dichotomous of terms. How do you think about it, though, because it is such a common thing of people believing that we are starting at the same at the same starting lineup.

Amira Barger [00:07:53]:

Yes. Exactly. And I would say that we hold a similar principle as DEI practitioners that we not we know that not everyone can be moved. Not everyone’s mind can be changed, and so we focus our energies on those who are on the cusp, those who are open to and curious about conversation. People asking questions is a really good signal of curiosity. We focus on those who have the capacity to be advocates for the work of DEI. So, yeah, those who are very starkly in the that’s not real camp, we don’t focus our energies there because not everyone can be moved, and that’s a a truth that we have to hold in doing this work so that we don’t burn out because this is hard work as it is. The, work of changing people’s minds and hearts and getting them to adopt new behaviors is really rigorous work.

Amira Barger [00:08:51]:

And it takes a lot of deep digging as an individual. And that means you have to have a person who is curious and remains open to new information that can inform how they act and move through the world, then that’s not everyone, unfortunately. Not in every aspect of life.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:09:09]:

Oh, thank you for list linking that in my own mind to curiosity, which is something Dave Bonni fascinated about for years now. And the way that we might be looking for where curiosity, even a little bit, might exist in other people is a helpful frame for me. So another related belief that people have that you want us to be part of dismantling our fears of reverse discrimination? Talk to us about this 1.

Amira Barger [00:09:35]:

Yes. This 1 comes up a lot lately. I think when people hear about the backlash, this is often what’s driving some of it is this fear of something being taken away from people who have been a part of privileged or dominant groups. And privilege here, meaning those who have sort of this unearned advantage. They didn’t do anything very specific to get it, but because of perhaps where they were born, who they were born to, again, what neighborhood they lived in, what school they went to, sometimes their advantages, they have sort of a a leg up. And many people tend to view the work of diversity, equity, and inclusion as this sort of 0 sum game. That idea of we’re lifting someone else up means you have to push or bring someone else down. And that’s not at all what we’re trying to do this work.

Amira Barger [00:10:29]:

It really is about leveling the playing field. It’s not about taking things away, but it’s about understanding where are there perhaps those under advantages or imbalances, and how can we help provide people with what they specifically need in order to thrive. And the example I gave in that I record most recently wrote is the curb cut effect, which is 1 of my favorite metaphors. And metaphors are helpful, especially for adult learners because as we receive new information, we often compare it to the knowledge and experience we already have. And most people here in the US have experienced and used a curb cut when you’re rollerblading, skateboarding, in a wheelchair, using a stroller, those little yellow cutouts with the little raised dots, most people know what a curb cut is and experienced it. And back in the 19 forties, there were disabled veterans, actually, 30 minutes from where I live in Northern California in Berkeley, who helped to create the very first curb cuts in sidewalks just to modify them so that war veterans and soldiers with disabilities could have better access to experience walking paths and sidewalks in the city around them. And they didn’t intend that it would benefit mothers with strollers, kids with bikes and scooters, but it did, people with walking sticks. And so the entirety of a community had better access to walking paths than to being outside, getting their vitamin d, and moving their body, and getting their exercise.

Amira Barger [00:12:02]:

And so that’s 1 I like to talk a lot about with people is that’s sort of what we’re trying to do here. We intended the fix for disabled veterans, and it helped to benefit everyone. And we didn’t have to take anything away from anyone at all. It just provided a fix that could help meet many specific needs that different people had.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:12:24]:

I love all of your uses of metaphors across many of your stories. And for this next area you’re going to work on having us dismantle, the metaphor of mirrors and windows comes up. Talk to us about political ideology and political correctness and how we might dismantle that 1.

Amira Barger [00:12:43]:

Yes. My colleague, Sharon Jo, she’s wonderful. We get to work hand in hand across many of the government offices, nonprofits, and corporations that we talk to every day about how to advance diversity, equity, inclusion. And mirrors and windows comes from the world of education. This is used in a lot of k through 12 and higher ed classrooms, and we’ve sort of adopted the framework for the world of DEI. But the idea is that mirrors and windows is a framework that asks, what are you creating so that others can see themselves represented in the spaces they’re in with you? And, you know, if you’re someone who is a black woman, someone who’s different from you might be, an Asian male. If you are a white man, someone different from you could be a disabled Latina female. Right? So how are you creating spaces where people see themselves represented in leadership, in their teachers, and even in their peers so that they can see the possibilities? And it also asks, what are you doing to create meaningful opportunities where people can look into and learn from the lived experience of others.

Amira Barger [00:13:58]:

And that’s why I love metaphors so much is sometimes it will jog an idea for someone when you’re able to present information and tie it to an idea that they might really innately understand very well. So creating opportunities for people to see how others live and to see and adopt behaviors, those are the windows. So mirrors and windows are needed to create these inclusive spaces. You have to see yourself, but you also have to be willing to observe people who are unlike you so you can understand new behaviors. And I think that’s something that’s important in today’s conversation around political ideology and correctness. You know, I try to very intentionally surround myself with people who believe and think differently than I do so that I can understand, well, where are they coming from? You know, is that something they believe based on their place of worship and the faith that they adopt perhaps? Is it based on a experience that they had as a child? Or is it based on a non experience? Maybe they just haven’t been exposed to a thing, an idea, a process, or a person before. And so it can be helpful to remain curious and to have conversations with people that are unlike you so you can understand where they’re coming from. And I also think that my own lived experience and background has taught me that.

Amira Barger [00:15:19]:

I actually grew up in a very conservative and Christian household, and I’m very not conservative today. And I’m deconstructing my faith, for example. And so I feel like I have an understanding of both sides of the aisle because we’re we’re we’re a 2 party aisle here in the US because of my previous lived experience and the way that I choose to live my life now because I was exposed to people of many different faiths, political ideologies, and lived experiences.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:15:51]:

I recently gave a talk at a at a university. It was a virtual talk, so I didn’t necessarily travel there, but it’s a place that I don’t visit very often, and it’s a place where there are a lot of debates around even just the terms diversity, equity, and inclusion. And, of course, we’re seeing those offices being shut down in universities in many of our states here in the United States. And even I mean, something to me as simple as words that describe things, and I talk about we try in our household not to say that there are bad words. I say there are imprecise words, and there are words that are used in a not as appropriate or not as helpful context. So I’m thinking about your work, and you’re not just doing work here in California. You’re you’re you’re crossing over many state lines in which they would have Yeah. More of a likelihood to find some of these terms concerning, and and to find metaphors to help people Mhmm.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:16:55]:

Perhaps challenge without it just creating this visceral response of, like, I feel like I’m now you’re getting to my my raw core, and you’re bumping up against parts of my identity. How much do you think about I wanna be precise so that I’m helping reclaim these words? And how much of it are you thinking I have to just gently get them in there? So because I think about sometimes colleagues that I have who are far more diplomatic than I am, and sometimes I wonder about this to what extent is my more direct nature going to be helping conversations, and to what extent is it where if I were a perhaps a little bit more I don’t I can’t find the right word that I’m thinking of, but but I don’t know. So so just talk about that that tension between, I wanna be precise, I wanna reclaim these words, or I I want to help bring people in because they might be deconstructing their own thoughts and perceptions about things, and we miss the opportunity when we when we lose them with those words that Mhmm. Are so fearful for them or or so.

Amira Barger [00:17:56]:

Yeah. And charged. They’re very charged words. You know, it depends. I am more apt to use language that I think will move people as opposed to doubling down on diversity, equity, or inclusion, if those are the words that are really triggering for a specific community of people, specific part of the world that I may be speaking, training, or advising in, because we also we also advise globally. So there’s the US context. There are some places and countries where DEI are not words that they use. And, it’s not as ever present a concern or it looks very different.

Amira Barger [00:18:36]:

In the US, we focus a lot on race. In other countries, it’s more gender or ability. There are so many different iterations of what diversity, equity, inclusion might look like in a company or in a country. So I’m very open to you know, I think across even in education, we learn this adage of show, don’t tell. And that’s why I like to use stories or examples or the metaphors because those words can really trip people up, and it can be like I said, it can be triggering. It can trigger someone to shut down. You know? If you start the an hour long session with Word CEI and they shut down within the first 5 minutes, you’ve lost them. So it really depends.

Amira Barger [00:19:16]:

And 1 of the things that I find really helpful is to have a partner. If I’m doing a talk, a training, or a long term advisement is who is a partner within that institution who really knows that institution’s culture and way of being that can help me understand those watch outs. You know? Oh, don’t say the word diversity or don’t use the acronym, DEI. Because there was a study recently that those words are very much seen as jargon, and they can actually be harmful to the work of DEI based on, know, everyday people that were surveyed. And so we hear things like respect at work, belonging, talking about how our links, our fates are linked. Right? So we’ll choose different language to explain an idea that is still very much DEI, but I don’t feel like we have to use those very specific words in a certain community if we know that it will dampen curiosity in some way, shape, or form. So as a DI practitioner, that’s a principle that we have to hold. We have to be able to hold things intention, and we have to be intentional about how we help people think about their behaviors and any sort of deconstructing that they’re doing.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:20:29]:

The 4th 1 sounds really easy. I say super sarcastically for anyone reading the transcripts right now. Talk about misinformation and understandings as our 4th element to to dismantle.

Amira Barger [00:20:42]:

Yes. There’s so much information out there, and it can be really hard for individuals to know where do I get the most right information about diversity, equity, and inclusion, and what those initiatives within our institutions of higher ed and our workplaces are trying to accomplish. And this is 1 that we contend with a lot because there can be initiatives and programs or people who may be advancing the work in ways that causes harm or are just not as familiar with how to advance DEI. And so 1 of the things we talk a lot about is starting with things like definitions. I think it’s easy, too easy to believe that when you step into a room and organization or meeting here in the US, that everyone knows what the d, the e, and the I of that acronym means, and they don’t. And so in the article, 1 of the things that I tried to outline is the aims of DEI and putting words and definition to some of the most common words that are misunderstood like equality, equity, systemic change, or even justice. Equity is 1 people often think of finance. That’s a word associated with investments.

Amira Barger [00:22:03]:

That’s not what we’re talking about. That’s 1 that trips people up a lot or even just the difference between equality and equity. And in the article, I used a metaphor of the monkey bars of, children falling off and having different needs based on their injuries and the remedy that we provide. If everyone gets the same remedy for a scraped knee and a concussion, that might be equality. Everyone got the same thing. Versus equity, someone with a scraped knee and someone with a concussion need very different medical care. They need more than just a Bonni Aid after they’ve fallen off the monkey bars. And equity is really about specificity, And that’s a lot of the aim of the work of DEI.

Amira Barger [00:22:47]:

What I need as a cis het black female is very different than what a cishet white male might need in the workplace. And that’s okay. Our needs are different because our lives are different and our experiences are different. And the work of DEI is about understanding what are those needs and how can we help to meet them so that we both, that cishet white male and me, a cishet black female, have the opportunity to thrive and to show up as our best selves in our workplaces, in our higher education institutions, and every space that we enter in the world.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:23:26]:

Well, this is the time in the show where we each get to share our recommendations. And the first 1 thing I wanna recommend is another article that you wrote. This 1 is called how AI is transforming DEI and what leaders should keep in mind. And you wrote it back in 2023, which in the AI world seems like quite a long time ago. So long ago. It’s like ages. All 4 of your points are still quite quite quite relevant today. You talk about representation Dave doesn’t ensure results.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:23:58]:

Your second point is about using AI for HR functions does not help DEI efforts. Language requires context, and finally, AI will not eliminate bias. So I would say this is an important read as we all look to continue to wrestle with what AI looks like, and especially in a higher education context. This is an important read. And the second thing I wanna recommend, there are gonna be 3 quick things. I would recommend this entire podcast, but I’m not recommending it for 2 reasons. 1 is I try to not recommend, on my end of things, something twice. So if I only recommend certain episodes, then I get to hold up if there’s future ones I wanna recommend.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:24:38]:

And the second reason I’m not recommending the entire podcast is I already have such a huge backlog, and I imagine many listeners do as well. So this way, if you just wanted to dip your toe in this podcast, here are 3 episodes. I would pick just 1 of these that sounds the best based on how I describe them. So the podcast in general is called Dave gazing, the navel gazing podcast, and this is by journalist John Dickerson. And I know John Dickerson’s work because of he’s been on the political gap fest, which is a a politics podcast I have listened to, gosh, for more than a decade now. And so he’s branched off and started he’s also AC0, well, I don’t know about the CBS correspondents. He’s a, journalist, has been for a long time. But so this is a branch off podcast that he does where he’s going back into his notebooks, essentially his journals.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:25:29]:

And he recently moved in New York City, and so he’s has all these boxes that he’s kind of unpacking. And he reads parts of his journal entries, and they’re really, really fascinating. And he’s really he’s a historian, and so he’ll go and tie it off into history, what was happening at that point in time, or he’ll even go back and relate it to way, way, way back from history long before he even was alive. So there are 3 episodes I wanna recommend. 1 is called sending our son to college. And if any of you have your children who are nearing college age I mean, I love listening to our kids are not nearing college age, but this would be an especially important listen if that sounds like a story that you might like to hear of another parent sort of navigating what that time and season looks like in a family’s life. The second 1, for any of you with dogs. I was raised with dogs.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:26:21]:

We haven’t had dogs for a long time because Dave’s allergic, but I got a little teary on this. This is called remembering George and defending the morning. And some of you might have read John Dickerson’s article that this was partially based on that he wrote about when his dog passed away. I was listening, and I was in in the car. I had just picked up some iced tea at a coffee shop, and there were tears. There were tears. So if you’ve ever had a dog, dogs passed away, I mean, you’re not gonna get out of this without some tears, but it’s such a beautiful look at dogs. And he and 1 of the quotes from it is all dogs are rescue dogs.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:26:57]:

It’s a very sweet piece. Beautiful, beautiful piece. And finally, some people might know that I wrote a book about personal productivity, and I loved the episode he did called the sneaky pitfalls of the to do list. And I just love a critical look at task management, productivity, what do all of those things mean, and it was just fun to hear him kinda talk about some of the ways he succeeds and doesn’t succeed in in trying out different kinds of productivity tools, including the Pomodoro technique, if any of you are familiar with that. So those are my 4 recommendations, and I’m gonna pass it over to you, Amira, for whatever you’d like to share.

Amira Barger [00:27:34]:

Nice. I love all those. I’m excited to dive in. I have 2 recommendations. So we talked a little bit across today’s conversation about dichotomies or binary thinking, and that made me think of The Wake Up by Michelle Mihung Kim. It’s a wonderful book that I go back to often. I think it was released in 20 20. So it’s only been out for a few years, but I go back to it very often.

Amira Barger [00:27:58]:

And 1 of the reasons is because she talks a lot across the book about when quote, unquote good people can cause harm. And part of our obsession with wanting to be seen as good people is fueled by binary thinking. If we are not good, then that must mean that we are bad. And it’s that sort of good bad binary that leads us to expect perfection from ourselves and of others, especially those that we put on a pedestal. But we also will sort of brutally punish those who we’ve deemed or crossed off as being bad. And so this is a really great book in terms of how to deconstruct that sort of thinking and to accept or embrace the gray areas. Not the the black and the white, the binary, the dichotomy, but the gray areas because there’s so much gray in life and in the world. And so I really love this book, the wake up by Michelle Mijung Kim.

Amira Barger [00:28:55]:

And every time I read it, I feel like I learn or gain something new, which is exciting. That’s exactly the kind of book I wanna read. And the second thing, we talked a lot about curiosity. And so almost every other morning, I listen to a episode of The Moth Storytelling Podcast. I love The Moth. They do them live, but they also have the podcast where, all across the country, people can sign up to tell a story based on a prompt. The prompt might be binary thinking, good, bad, or the prompt might be life lessons or childhood memories. And 1 of the reasons I love listening to it is I love a good story, and Dave found that as a person, as a mom, as a partner, as a DI practitioner, sibling, that it continues to stoke my curiosity hearing the stories and the lived experiences of so many other people.

Amira Barger [00:29:51]:

And if you listen to it, so many of the stories can be really deep and vulnerable. And I just find that it’s helpful for how you think about the world and think about the people in your world and how you experience them. So if you’re open to being more curious, The Moth, the storytelling podcast is amazing. You can also watch it on YouTube if you’re a very visual person and want to, have the the captions and the titles and, visually see the storytellers on stage.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:30:20]:

Oh my gosh. Now I never mind if other people recommend in fact, I love when people other people recommend things twice because that’s been what’s gotten me to read books that I didn’t clue into the first time I heard about it. But the I can tell you, this is the first time the bot moth has ever been recommended, and it’s such a tremendous I haven’t listened to it in forever. I’m gonna have to go. You you’ve got some things you wanna explore on my list, and I wanna go back and re experience the moth after all this time. How fun. Well, 1 thing that we talked about, we talked about that we we’ve known each other now for gosh. It’s probably coming nearing 2 decades.

Amira Barger [00:30:55]:

Yeah. Since 2005.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:30:57]:

Yeah. No. No. No. Yeah. Oh my gosh. I was trying to have I was having trouble just even doing basic math in my head there. Yeah.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:31:05]:

That is wild.

Amira Barger [00:31:07]:

That is wild, actually.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:31:09]:

And then the other thing that we were talking about before we started recording is that our podcast editor, Andrew, who, of course, I talk about at the end of every episode, which I’m about to do now, is gonna be editing your voice, and the 2 of you went to school together. And the 2 of you Wild. I know it’s super wild. So this is like old homework, things coming full circle, and

Amira Barger [00:31:29]:

I love

Bonni Stachowiak [00:31:29]:

it. I love it too. I mean, I’ve always felt like I’ve learned from you from the day that I met you, so we’ve just definitely had a a colearning experience, though, all the times that we’ve known each other, but how fun to get this experience. And, again, I I wanna suggest that people also go to the show notes because you can follow Amira on various social media because you are just churning out all kinds of content out there.

Amira Barger [00:31:52]:

I stay busy.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:31:54]:

If this seemed like an interesting conversation to you, you are a prolific art author out there sharing, things like we talked about today. So thank you so much for today.

Amira Barger [00:32:03]:

Dave to be here always.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:32:07]:

Thanks once again to Amira Barger for joining me on today’s episode of Teaching in Higher Ed. Today’s episode was produced by me, Bonni Stachowiak. It was edited by the ever talented Andrew Kroeger. Podcast production support was provided by the amazing Sierra Priest. If you’ve been listening for a while and have yet to sign up for the Teaching in Higher Ed weekly email update, head over to teachinginhighered.com/subscribe. You’ll get the most recent episodes, show notes, as well as some other resources that don’t show up on the show. Thanks so much for listening, and I’ll see you next time on Teaching in Higher Ed.

Teaching in Higher Ed transcripts are created using a combination of an automated transcription service and human beings. This text likely will not represent the precise, word-for-word conversation that was had. The accuracy of the transcripts will vary. The authoritative record of the Teaching in Higher Ed podcasts is contained in the audio file.