Bonni: [00:00:00] Today on this episode of Teaching in Higher Ed, Annemarie Perez and Douglas Dowland share about how to be a generous professor in precarious times.

Production Credit: [00:00:13] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Bonni: [00:00:24] Hello and welcome to this episode of Teaching in Higher Ed. I’m Bonni Stachowiak and this is the space where we explore the art and science of being more effective at facilitating learning. We also share ways to improve our productivity approaches so we can have more peace in our lives and be even more present for our students.

Bonni: [00:00:49] Today I am welcoming back to the show Annemarie Perez. She’s an Assistant Professor of Interdisciplinary Studies at California State University Dominguez Hills. Her specialty is Latina/ Latino literature with a focus on Chicana feminist writers-editors from 1965 to the present. Her interests include digital humanities and digital pedagogy work and its intersections and divisions with ethnic and cultural studies. Her most recent work includes a book chapter “Lowriding Through the Digital Humanities,” connecting Chicana/Chicano digital culture with more mainstream work in the digital humanities and work on Chicana writer and activist Elizabeth Martinez’s writings as Elizabeth Sutherland. She’s currently writing a book on Latina feminist editorship.

[00:01:49] Douglas Dowland is also joining us today. He’s an Associate Professor of English at Ohio Northern University, where he was awarded the 2018 Professor of the Year by its Getty College of Arts and Sciences. He is co-editing a cluster of articles on “Anxious Pedagogies” for Pedagogy and another cluster of articles on “Violent Feelings” for Literature Interpretation Theory. Doug’s essays on higher education can be found at Inside Higher Ed and the Chronicle of Higher Education. Doug, welcome to Teaching in Higher Ed for the first time and Annemarie, welcome back to Teaching in Higher Ed.

Doug: [00:02:32] Thank you, Bonni.

Annemarie: [00:02:34] Thanks, Bonni.

Bonni: [00:02:35] Doug, it’s so nice to meet you today and be connected with you through Annemarie, I already feel a closeness with you from having read your article and getting to talk a little bit before we pressed record. Let’s start with Doug and then and Annemarie of course I want to hear from you too. But Doug, talk a little bit about “precarious times,” what did the two of you mean by “precarious times?”

Doug: [00:02:59] So I think when Annemarie and I used that phrase “precarious times,” what we’re talking about is a huge change in academic life and in academia itself that’s probably started as late as the 1980s and continues to baffle us today when we’re talking about the rise of adjunct and temporary contracts faculty, when we’re talking about the erosion or micromanagement of faculty time so that people may in fact be required to be on on campus and office hours down to precise minutes where those minutes might be logged or almost like a timesheet that has to be filled out. Where the sample space for faculty to engage in what I think a generation or two ago would have just been considered normal practices of reviewing papers, sitting down with others, and thinking and talking has been put under pressure by larger forces that require us to produce more, whether that means teaching more students, publishing more papers, being on more committees, where this large impress of productivity has really taken over the world that when I thought about going into higher education was more about reflection and community.

Bonni: [00:04:27] I recently changed roles- well sort of- I’m holding two roles right now, maybe three depending on your count. But I admire so much the man I report to who is our provost. And he, when we sat down and we talked through the numbers and what that’s going to look like, he said to me something that still just blows my mind he says, “I want you reading, Bonni. I want yu thinking. And I want to reflecting and that’s so important.” And it felt to me- I was shocked because I thought oh my gosh like during the day, when I was supposed to be working the idea that I would read a book related to, in this case faculty development, that just felt like oh no that has to happen at night on my own time. And I normally don’t think that way. So it’s really funny, but I just I loved that he laid out that challenge.

Bonni: [00:05:19] And he just like you described Doug, really yearns for that more of higher education meaning in us thinking deeply. And something I know that is so important to both of you- and Annemarie I’d love for you to reflect on this a little bit- not just thinking deeply as researchers, but also really wanting to think deeply about how to care for and support our students.

Bonni: [00:05:40] So could you share a little bit about the precarious times for our students as well, Annemarie?

Annemarie: [00:05:46] Yes. And thinking of that and there’s another connection that when Doug and I were brainstorming this article, that really made me think “yes this needs to be written.” Is that we also have this whole genre right now online of Quit Lit of people writing that they’re giving up on the job market where they’ve adjuncted enough and that they’re walking away.

Annemarie: [00:06:14] And starting with Rebecca Schuman’s Thsis Hatement that went so viral a few years back. And that the reaction to it in too many places is rather than seeing this moment of vulnerability, I think because it makes those of us who are in tenure track positions or tenured positions feel guilty, our reaction is to see this as as an individual’s fault. And that can happen with our students too. I happen to work with a student population that is primarily first generation college students, Pel Grant working adults with families and things happen in their lives. I mean really things that would absolutely knock me off my game and to try and see them and see that and listen to them and not just see this as “well, we’ve all got problems.” I think that’s really the challenge we’re facing.

Bonni: [00:07:25] Doug, share a little bit about our real tendencies and how we sort of reinforced this with each other to to not want to be generous.

Doug: [00:07:35] I see generosity as a professional ethos. It’s not just a way on which we can work with our students and our colleagues. It’s certainly that though. It’s also a matter of practice. And by that I mean it’s simply a matter of keeping one’s eyes open to the potential around them. And the way that I tend to think about it, I teach at a relatively small school in which the entire English department has their offices and has their classrooms on one story. And so as I walk from my office down the hall and I take the moment, I slow my pace, and I simply look at how my students are sitting in the hallway. I take a look at what they’re doing with their bodies, are they hunched down around their cell phones? Or are they crying? Are they making jokes or are they laughing? How are they interacting with each other?

Doug: [00:08:30] If I see my colleagues down the hallway, are they huddled together? Or are they making jokes amongst each other? Are they just trying to work through an idea? I think that the issue is is that we’re so under pressure that- I know I have a tendency even today to get up out of my chair in my office, walk straight down to the classroom and open up my attendance book and class gets going. And I feel under this incredible pressure when class starts at 10 I have to have exactly 50 minutes worth of material so when class is over at 10:50 there’s a tangible product and I can look that up in lesson plans that I am obligated to turn in and all sorts of things like that.

Doug: [00:09:11] So precarity is this pressure that encourages us to narrow our vision. About the world around us. And I think that that gets reinforced through all sorts of institutional and disciplinary pressures about how often I go into the big conference in my field? Am I presenting a landmark paper? Am I working on myself almost as a personal brand through which I will somehow potentially receive some sort of a reward down the road? I think that what that does- and Annemarie and I wrote I think very eloquently about it and to loop back on what Annemarie said about Quit Lit for instance- is that we have a minimal sense of what to do with vulnerability.

Doug: [00:09:59] I think we have a sense of what to do with vulnerable student populations. I think we have a grasp on how we can work on that. But when it comes to vulnerable adjunct faculty, I think that this is a huge area in which higher education has to work substantially on. What do we do with vulnerable faculty? What do we do with vulnerable graduate students? And how can we talk about vulnerability in such a way, like Annemarie so it doesn’t come off as a personal affront as if when a person shares or discloses their vulnerability with me that I don’t feel offended or something like that, but that I feel like it is an opportunity to expose an injustice or to reveal an insecurity or to go back to that old axiom to think about how the personal is political.

Doug: [00:10:48] I think in Quit Lit and end and discourses like that when people share their vulnerability of “Hey I’m gonna leave this profession because it’s not for me anymore,” I think that we need to acknowledge that and I think we need to see that as something that even those of us with tenure have to digest and accept and generously embrace those who say “I’m out.” We have to acknowledge the vulnerability and we have to be ready to talk about, and not to prescribe them onto others, but we need to be able to listen to the vulnerability of others in order to be generous towards them.

Annemarie: [00:11:30] I think following up on that, a key element to me of generosity is being able to be in a listening space. I’ve got a lot to say, I’ve always got a lot to say. I get to manage a classroom and all these things but to really listen whether it’s our students or the whole genre of Quit Lit is somebody really baring their soul and saying “I’m letting go of this dream that I had from the time I was an undergraduate, but certainly all through graduate school. I’ve invested all this time and energy and this didn’t happen for me and this is my good bye.” I mean oh my god. That’s a huge emotional reveal that someone’s making. And for someone who’s in my position to react to that by saying “Well you should’ve known that that could have happened when you started graduate school.” I mean that’s really cold.

Bonni: [00:12:43] So we’ve talked a little bit about having more generosity with our contingent faculty. One of the things we haven’t talked too much about yet is just with our students, so much of it is the tendency to reinforce the feeling of suspicion. How do we make test so they can’t cheat on them? How do we do this surveillance when we teach online classes and make sure that we can spot if they look away and have a drink of water? What are they doing with their hand there? Like what’s going on outside the camera that I can’t see? Or that this agency that we’ve paid money or I should say students have paid money to Proctor that exam. By the way I’m not saying they’re all bad things, but like if that’s our paradigm to catch the cheaters.

Bonni: [00:13:25] And then you didn’t talk about this before Annemarie, but you were reminding me of just students when stuff happens in their life it’s so quick to go to suspicion. Was that real? Would I have stayed home if it was a medical thing? Would I have gone to be with my family if it was that thing? And comparing their choices as if they were going through the same life in the way that I experienced it going through college, which was a long time ago and also in a totally different context. And I would do so much better for myself, I just keep challenging myself and as I learn so much through this podcast is just “oh no, you’ve got to shut your story down.”.

Bonni: [00:14:00] You’ve got to invest in learning, and hearing, and understanding the context that your students have because they’re so different from you and that will just enrich your teaching. And I think ultimately make me a more generous- but if I listened too much to other colleagues who do have that suspicion, I don’t tolerate it well now so I get impatient and I don’t help them listen better, but I need to get better at that too. Because it is hard. I mean we really do work hard and it really is hard when we feel let down because cheating happened or something like that. I mean I won’t pretend that these things can’t feel like personal attacks sometimes but I want to build up my capacity for generosity. I wonder if you each would share a bit about that.

Annemarie: [00:14:43] Well this story you were just telling, I think part of the reason I feel able to be generous with my students is that I have really reflected a lot recently on the ways in which people have been generous to me. I had to drop out of college for financial and personal reasons, I dropped out of UCLA after three years. And I had to go around and get signatures- I don’t know why- but for whatever reason you can’t just drop out of school, you have to go around and get signatures. And so I was sitting in the hallway of the English department at UCLA waiting for my professor and I probably looked sad. I wasn’t crying. And one of the faculty members who I’ve never had for a class I know who he is now because I’ve found out. But asked me if I was OK and invited me into his office, he asked me what was wrong. I basically told him well you know I’m leaving school. And he listened to me and then said “you’ll be back.” That was all he said but it was something I hung onto. And when I finished myPh.D. I actually wrote to him and said I’m sure you don’t remember this back in 1989, but I think these moments are moments of grace and we have this opportunity to be that person.

Bonni: [00:16:28] You just reminded me of a time when I had just found out that one of our attempts at IVF hadn’t worked and we had just it was a long, long, long journey that we were on. And you know you got to go teach, something happens but you need to show up and you need to be there for your students and stuff in the back of the trunk carrying up to my office just getting ready to go just try to carry that grief with me for the day and I am just walking and see a guy says “Are you OK?” And I take that to mean like oh my gosh I am so transparent right now. I’m so vulnerable. He can see through to my soul and the pain that I’m experiencing and they suddenly realize oh it’s because I’m carrying something. Like generally it appeared that I might topple over. I always try to carry too much cause heaven forbid I have to go take a second trip to the car. But it was one of those things where I just felt like- we parted ways and I started crying and weeping because I thought- that’s the experience I try to carry with me now because those are the same kinds of feelings of just “I have to stuff this down” for this three hour class, I have got to stuff this down, whatever the pain I’ve brought in. I got to stuff it away. And just to open up spaces for people to say how are you? Whether it’s a student in a hallway or a colleague who appears like they may need help carrying boxes or they need help with something else.

Bonni: [00:18:01] So Doug, I didn’t mean to take away. I want to definitely hear from you on this topic. But but Annemarie thank you for that, that reminded me of a time where I just- when we notice people, and Doug you were talking about walking down the hall and noticing our students and noticing your colleagues and watching their bodies and where they’re carrying the stress or joy or whatever.

Doug: [00:18:22] I really do think that generosity is as Annemarie and I were trying to frame it as are really in those very simple, minute gestures that can open up all sorts of spaces. If you see, for example, an excellent teacher who you think there might be the possibility of converting that contingent line into a permanent line of thinking about well I can start with my own insight and I can get a colleague to join in and you sort of build something along the way. That’s one way in which you can make your generosity a much larger phenomenon.

Bonni: [00:18:56] But I do think at its core, generosity is a simple act of acknowledgment and it’s actually a moment of trust. I think that there’s a very interesting pedagogy that’s going around in let’s say like the hybrid pedagogies circle that has really tried to rearticulate trust as the driving force of our pedagogy. So when I go into a classroom, I’m not innately suspicious of a student, but that I innately trust all the students in the room and that I can be and that they can be vulnerable together.

Doug: [00:19:35] I think that seeing the classroom as an open space, I might go so far as to say a place it’s also occasionally fun and playful as much as it is transformative and serious. But I think that approaching the classroom and approaching the student not as this embodiment of suspicion or paranoia that the student is out to get me or that the student is trying to trick me, which I fear is is our predominant discourse today when we talk about students we talk about them almost as things that we should fear, rather than as people who are going through their own life track and who may need us for help with some things and may not need us for help for others. It’s simply, to me, a matter of acknowledging each student as an individual person and then seeing whether or not I can be of help to them in some way. I think that’s a substantially more radical way of looking at students rather than as just commodity’s about how many seats I can fill in a classroom. Or as little pieces of data that I collect along the way with the help of a clicker for attendance or something like that.

Doug: [00:20:43] And I think that within the sort of hubbub of higher education a lot of what we do is we get together and we talk about the worst case scenario. I recall there was a student, this was a many many years ago, who told me three times in one semester that his grandmother was dead. And my first instinct was to say okay by the time that the third grandmother was coming around, clearly the student was trying to bluff me and that led to all sorts of feelings and security on my part of am I doing my job? Am I policing the classroom in the way that I should? And eventually I had to stand back and say well maybe there is an issue in the student’s life that I have to imagine that he is not willing to tell me. And maybe this is his habitual excuse for a much larger phenomenon which he does not want me to know about.

Doug: [00:21:38] And so instead of looking at myself as being do I have to discipline? Do I have to to keep the proper form? If you follow along that line of thinking, you’re bound to become paranoid and distrustful. Rather I would like to see students generiously, I like see each of them as having their own unique needs which they can approach me with or perhaps they may. But I want to create a teaching classroom where if they want to, they can. And they know that if they want to, they can.

Bonni: [00:22:08] Even in situations where, Doug, that student was out and out lying and if we if we’re going to go worst case scenario, they really are trying to pull one over on you. There is no deeper darker secret going there, they wanted to go surfing. You can tell I’m in Southern California here. Not a very global example. But to me, I’d also try to remember that may be true, but we’re also teaching in a larger system. And somewhere along the way, this student got the idea that this is a game. This is a transaction. You talked about the clickers for attendance and stuff, that comes up often of oh they just came in, and signed in, or clicked in or whatever and then left. That helps me feel more gentle about it. And I mean how sad.

Bonni: [00:23:04] But I can remember experiences in education. Annemarie, you’ll love this, and I here’s my mission, oh my gosh, four and a half years of podcasting and I’m never admitted this. I cheated in a Spanish class.

Annemarie: [00:23:17] *Annemarie laughs*.

Bonni: [00:23:19] And so it was some exam and we were supposed to conjugate verbs. We were going to be presented and do this. I remember that there is a list of verbs that I had on a piece of paper next to me and I looked at it for like brainstorm the next verb or whatever. And there’s a couple of things I want to say about this because I have to make the excuse for why I cheated on the exam.

Bonni: [00:23:40] One was, first of all, the professor wasn’t in the room which I do think it’s good when we are assessing to be present, not to catch people but just I mean- there was another professor who he read his newspaper in the back of the room when we were presenting. I mean so to be present for the learning and assessment that you design I think is important. But then also that she had made fun of me because I conjugated quiero, I was trying to say “I want to be a teacher” and I said “I’m in love with the teacher” and ha ha isn’t that funny. And everyone laughed. And I thought, I signed out, you know no more Spanish for me. This is embarrassing.

Bonni: [00:24:16] And again I sound like I’m trying to make excuses but then I went on into education. So somewhere along the line, she’s still traveling with me even though she’s not there anymore. So Doug, if I have you now as my professor you still have to teach to me having a paradigm that says oh this person in power that’s my professor has the power to make fun of me and the whole class can laugh at me as I try to learn a new language.

Annemarie: [00:24:43] You know something that was really helpful to me. I’m very glad I had it as an experience in Graduate school. I was the Residence Hall Director at of the residence halls at my university. So I lived in a building with 500 freshmen, which is exciting, very exciting.

Bonni: [00:25:03] I can imagine.

Annemarie: [00:25:07] I remember sitting and having lunch with friends of mine who were teaching, like all English graduate students do, in the freshman writing program and I was listening to them realize they were taking students not turning in work or turning in horr work as a personal affront. I finally said I live with these people and I know that on the days we teach our lives revolve around that class. But my students that I’m living with, they’re breaking up with their high school boyfriend or girlfriend or much worse. What I always keep in mind when students are not telling me the truth about why they have missed class was I knew there was a student in one of the residence halls who missed a week of class because she went home to have an abortion. She wasn’t going to tell her freshman writing teacher that that’s why she missed. And now that I teach more, as the professor, if students want to share something like that with me, that’s a gift of trust. But I don’t expect my students to trust me with that kind of information. I mean they see me twice a week for 18 weeks.

Annemarie: [00:26:35] So I think we have to keep in mind and maybe it makes it easier to be generous to keep in mind that this hour and a half that’s so important in our life is maybe on a different level for our students.

Doug: [00:26:55] I agree with Annemarie that I lately have been thinking about what paths do my students take on a daily basis? So at 9 o’clock a lot of them are in the chemistry lab and they come to my literature class at 10. And then at 11 they go off for lunch, at noon it may be off to soccer practice. And their day is much more diverse than ours in a way. And it’s a diversity that I think we can easily forget as we as I’ve said before my classroom is in the same building as my offices. And for the most part, if I want to, I can stay in that building for the entire day. And I don’t necessarily have to go out unless if I want coffee or a library book or an outside lunch or something like that. My world is much more insular. Whereas our students are encountering all sorts of things that we don’t know about. We don’t really need to know about.

Doug: [00:27:48] But they’re witnessing a variety of different teaching styles of which mine is just one. They’re being asked to do a number of different assignments of which mine is just one. And on top of that, they’re also potentially working. They also have family lives, they may have families. They may be involved in other organizations. And all of that really the student what we see is one slice. And I think at times we forget that. And I think that’s one of the triggers that may lead us to be less generous is that we sort of presume that they are as intensely focused on our own narrow field of expertise as we are.

Doug: [00:28:25] And it’s tempting to push and shove and rush them. For instance, I often run into a situation where students are coming to my classes which are typically 18 to 20 students after sitting in a lecture hall of 80-90 where for the most part their participation has been very passive and it takes more than a 10 minute walk from a lecture hall to my classroom for them to adjust from the passive learning environment to an active learning environment.

Doug: [00:28:57] And if I have a fault in the classroom, it’s probably impatience. But I cannot immediately expect students to dive into an active learning environment within 10 minutes after a passive one. And at times I think my frustration can show. And at times I need to be more frankly generous with them as much as myself in saying maybe the first five minutes is just going to be blowing off a bit of steam or checking in and saying How’s the week going? How’s the weather for you all? What did you do over the holiday? And I ask this question frankly more this time of the semester as we get nearer to final exams. How many hours of sleep have you been getting? Did you have breakfast? Did you do these very simple things that as your life comes to feel pressured you might want to take care of yourself on that so we can all make it through together.

Bonni: [00:29:53] One of the things that the phrases that you use is to build generosity in to practice. And you’ve given us so many ideas to do that in today’s conversation. I’m going to take a quick break to recognize today’s sponsor and then we get to share our recommendations.

Bonni: [00:30:08] Today’s episode is sponsored by TextExpander. TextExpander as many of you know if you’ve been listening for a while, is one of the first things I install on a new computer at work on computers and it works on smartphones. And what it does is allows you to get more communicated with less time. You can work faster and smarter.

Bonni: [00:30:32] What happens is you create what are called snippets. Those are little tiny things that you’ll type in that when you’re done typing will expand into larger things. It can be something as simple as a mailing address, or a phone number that you don’t remember, or have been experimenting a little bit using them for letters of recommendation. We want to spend the time, for example, in writing that letter of recommendation on the content part of it, the message, the depth of it, not on things like oh where does the address go and the person’s name and who am I addressing this to. What’s the formatting. So it just allows us to really spend time on the important parts of our writing. And there’s date formats that you can do so that will type it in right. And even with a lot of things like what the show notes for the podcast, I’ll just type in TiHESN as in Teaching in Higher Ed Show Notes and it asks me, Hey what’s the episode number? What’s the title? Who’s the guest? What’s the category? And I fill all those things in and I’m ready to go start taking notes on all the great things that Annemarie and Doug are about to tell me.

Bonni: [00:31:41] So it really saves me a lot of time and helps me focus on the important contributions I can make. If you go to TextExpander.com/podcast and it will allow you to get a discount on the service. And if you would just indicate that you heard about it on Teaching in Higher Ed that’ll help us out so they know the show is making a difference to them. Thanks to TextExpander for sponsoring today’s episode.

Bonni: [00:32:07] This is the point in the show where we each get to share our recommendations. I laugh because sometimes my recommendations have nothing to do with the episode. And for once a good connection. In the Chronicle they did a wonderful series of stories and videos called Hungry to Learn- five students describe their struggles with food and housing insecurity and what colleges can do to help. And this is definitely a topic that I need to continue to grow on and I just appreciated this because it was just snapshots of such different students with different struggles and yet this whole common thread of, which for me was not an issue of going to college. So it’s one that I really have to carve out room for imagining what that would be like and imagine what that’s like for our students sitting right there today. So Hungry to Learn I recommend people go and check it out.

Bonni: [00:32:59] And I’m going to pass it over to Annemarie for your recommendations.

Annemarie: [00:33:03] Well I really was very fortunate in getting recommendations for this podcast because I was at a conference and I met with a book editor at John Hopkins who had read our Chronicle article.

Bonni: [00:33:19] How fun.

Annemarie: [00:33:21] He gave me a book that is coming out in February by Kathleen Fitzpatrick who I know from Twitter. And the book’s called Generous Thinking: A Radical Approach to Saving the University.

Bonni: [00:33:33] Oh.

Annemarie: [00:33:36] And it is a wonderful way of connecting generosity to how we treat our academic disciplines and how we relate to the university itself. It says it’s going to be on sale February 12, 2019 so I highly recommend this book.

Bonni: [00:33:56] Isn’t that so fun when you’re at a conference- I’ve been going to quite a few more these days- and then you get to hear someone that maybe heard you on a podcast or read your words. It’s so fun then it’s almost like a conversation gets to continue and then be expanded on to things that are new to you. It’s a very exciting thing to have happen when you do some writing or you do speaking.

Annemarie: [00:34:21] Yeah it made me think that generosity maybe in a kind of a zeitgeist kind of moment.

Bonni: [00:34:27] Wouldn’t that be nice.

Annemarie: [00:34:28] In this time which seems like a very dark time.

Bonni: [00:34:33] Yeah. Wouldn’t that be nice. Doug, how about you? What do you have to recommend for us today?

Doug: [00:34:38] I have a commencement speech actually to suggest by Atul Gawande. You’ll find it in the June 2nd issue of The New Yorker. And it is titled Curiosity and What Equality Really Means. Gawande does a wonderful job of reminding students, med school students, that the populations that they will see are in some ways representative of the nation as a whole and that one of the major drivers of practicing good medicine and actually being empathetic with others is realizing that we are all equal.

Doug: [00:35:17] The prisoner who has, and this is Gawande’s example, who has ended up in theE.R. because he has been in solitary confinement for two years has as many emotional needs as the doctor who is trying to repair their bodies. And for me, I follow Gawande not only because I do medical humanities, but also because I think we need to be reminded that our students are equals in their own ways too. That certainly we as faculty regardless of whatever rank or position we hold are equals amongst our students and that the only way in which we can really be empathetic towards each other and towards them is by acknowledging their innate equality with us. And so Gawande’s commencement speech is simply an amazing and direct reminder that if we’re going to be curious about people, and I would say if we’re going to be generous towards them, we have to have a seat in ourselves that acknowledges their equality.

Bonni: [00:36:22] Is it his words and also spoken words too? Do you get to hear him give this speech or are you reading the speech on the in the New Yorker?

Doug: [00:36:30] Your reading the speech in the New Yorker. I believe the oral version is available through YouTube.

Bonni: [00:36:36] Oh fun, I will search and if it is of course as always it’ll be in the recommendations segment which people can get at the bottom of the show notes for today’s episode at teachinginhighered.com/235. Or as many of you know there’s a whole dedicated section of the website on recommendations at teachinginhighered.com/recommendations.

Bonni: [00:36:58] And I love that we have our first commencement speech so now I’m trying to figure out which category does that belong in? But it’ll probably end that Sierra who actually builds the graphics for all of those will probably find a good category for it and I won’t have to worry about it. But it’s our first. It’s fun to have a new category of things that get recommended. Thank you so much. And thanks to both of you. Annemarie, I’m so glad I was connected with you, it was all those many many years ago. And so fun to just have this common thread of conversation going. And Doug, I feel like I’ve met a new person, a new sojourner with us on serving and caring for our students. And thank you for wrapping my head around the idea of generosity and just building lots of food for thought.

Doug: [00:37:40] Thank you, Bonni.

Annemarie: [00:37:42] Thank you.

Bonni: [00:37:44] Another big thank you to Annemarie Perez and to Doug Dowland for coming on today’s episode. I also want to say thank you to someone who referred to themselves on Apple podcasts as HU Ph.D. Candidate and for writing such nice review. They said “thank you so much for continuing to have this podcast. As a newer faculty member, I’m finding everything so helpful. I know I will be going back to listen to many of them multiple times. Your enthusiasm and dedication to helping us be great is so appreciated.”.

Bonni: [00:38:18] Well your words are very edifying to me. Thanks so much. If any of you listening have yet to rate or review the show on whatever services you use to listen to it. It would be great if you would do that because it helps spread the word about the podcast. So thanks for listening everyone, I’ll see you next time.

Teaching in Higher Ed transcripts are created using a combination of an automated transcription service and human beings. This text likely will not represent the precise, word-for-word conversation that was had. The accuracy of the transcripts will vary. The authoritative record of the Teaching in Higher Ed podcasts is contained in the audio file.