Bonni Stachowiak [00:00:00]:

Today on episode number 4194, the ones too often left behind in higher education with Todd Zakrajsek. Welcome to this episode of Teaching in Higher Ed. I’m Bonni Stachowiak, and this is the space where we explore the art and science of being more effective at facilitating learning. We also share ways to improve our productivity approaches so we can have more peace in our lives and be even more present for our students. I am thrilled to welcome back to the show Todd Zakrajsek, who is that is my favorite last name to say. And Rather than reading Todd’s bio, we have Todd here early in the interview to tell us a little bit about himself and to really praise me for how well I I’m kidding. You don’t actually have to praise me on the pronunciation, but I it is it is my favorite last name to say in the entire world.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:01:05]:

I appreciate that. I really do appreciate that. It was actually earlier in my Career. I was gonna shorten it to Zach because some of the family members did, and my wife said, don’t you dare. She said that’s a great last name, so I appreciate that. And you say it perfectly, Bonni, this is so good. I always love it when you do this. And what what episode number did you say again?

Bonni Stachowiak [00:01:24]:

494. That is crazy, my friend.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:01:27]:

I remember when you started this, and that is just it’s amazing, and you’ve done a great job. So, anyway, appreciate being on the show again. So I yes. Todd Zakrajsek and you asked me to say something. Let’s just do this quickly. I work at University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. I’m a research associate professor. I also direct for Lilly Conferences on evidence based teaching and learning every year, and I write a little bit.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:01:49]:

And so recently, I’ve written oh, let’s see. It was dynamic lecturing in 2017. And then in 2020, I did advancing online teaching with Kevin Kelly. And in 2021, I did teaching for learning 2nd edition with Claire Major and Michael Harris. 2022, I did the 3rd edition of The New Science of Learning in 2023 with Linda Nielsen. I did Teaching at Its Best. And I’m working on another project right now, which I’m very excited about Because I wanna keep this stretch going. And it’s a little book about assessment techniques with the 3rd edition that has been long due.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:02:24]:

So I will just leave it with that.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:02:27]:

As I often say to my colleagues at work, we’re not in any danger of being bored anytime soon. I can tell from from you sharing that. I I feel like I am not particularly Good at coming up with titles for episodes, so I am grateful to you for coming up with this one. It says so much in so few words such that I was actually able to use the title you proposed without trying to truncate it in some ways. So Let’s begin with that question that that the title begs. Who are the ones who are often left behind in education?

Todd Zakrajsek [00:03:06]:

Oh, I I came up with this title is a a plenary that I did for a conference, and I was researching different things and trying to figure out which way to go. And as I was going through that, I kept coming back to my daughter who really, really struggled to get through school. She so worked so hard to get through, And she did graduate with a 2.0001, and I have never seen anybody work harder. She’s on the autism spectrum. She also has social anxiety. And there are multiple times that if I hadn’t known as much as I did, she would have been left behind. So neurodiverse learners, autism spectrum, ADHD, Anybody with a learning disorder, sensory processing issues, 1st gen college students who don’t often understand the hidden curriculum, there are students from marginalized groups out there, People with health, emotional, cognitive challenges. I just there’s so many people, and and I’m really nervous about even saying this because I’ve left many people behind.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:03:59]:

We got people with transportation issues and health insecurity and food insecurity and just so many people. But I I guess the point is, If you are not a fast talking, risk taking extrovert who has some resources and you come to the the class and you you’re good at learning in the way that traditionally people are taught, If you’re one of those people, you’re fine. And college teachers often teach to those people because it’s what I mean, but I’ve been a college teacher for 37 years. It’s what we’ve always done. And I am embarrassed by the number of years that I lost students and thought it was because they weren’t motivated or because because they just didn’t try or they didn’t value it. I lost them for reasons that were based on my perception, and I rarely thought about their perception. And so that’s what I’m thinking about more and more is when I start when I see a student slipping, it’s it’s I just don’t wanna see that person left behind.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:04:52]:

We have so much to to explore in what you’ve just laid out, so thank you for that. I do wanna note in case this is someone’s first time listening to this podcast and first time ever hearing from you. Just before before we start to explore this further, I I I thought it might be Important to note that when you speak about your daughter and her experience in school, that not only is this something that you do with her permission, but I think it maybe even goes beyond just her willingness, but actually, like anyway, I don’t wanna speak the words for you, but would you just address anyone’s concern who’s like, how dare this guy I’ve never heard before speak so openly about maybe a story that that perhaps she would rather tell herself? Or anyway, any any concerns someone may have around that? Because I know you speak about that a lot and you often share those kinds of things about her experience.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:05:39]:

Well, first of all, I think that’s a really important point, Bonni, is anytime a faculty members in the classroom talking about their family. And I have to admit, when I was a early career faculty member, I hadn’t really thought about this, is we really should always have permission from those that we are Speaking about that it’s okay, the daughter that I have that’s on the spectrum has not only said it is okay. If it benefits education, she says go ahead and do it, and she has told me certain areas that are off limits. But when she was younger, probably in middle school, I asked her. I said, hey. You had this great story I would love to use in a workshop. Is that okay with you? And she said, yeah. That’s fine.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:06:12]:

Are you being paid for this? I said, sure. She says, then I want a dollar every time you tell a story that is about me. And I laughed and I says, are you sure? And she said, yep. And so every time I’d come home from doing a workshop, I’d say, here’s $3. And so She not only said it was okay, she profited from it, which I thought was hilarious. And then I have 2 other daughters that have said the same thing. And so, anyway, yes, I’m glad you pointed it out. Nothing you hear today will not be done without permission.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:06:36]:

Yeah. And I I love that you the way that you’ve often talked about that in terms of if it’s good for cation and these stories. You tell such wonderful stories. It’s powerful. I only have 2 children. So the other thing that comes up peer is that I I will sometimes talk about them, but I’m they’re now of the age where I would ask for permission first. I didn’t recently on a recent episode. I spoke about a family member, and I used gender neutral pronouns so that they didn’t know which one it was having to do with the way in which they replace toilet paper rolls.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:07:09]:

So and I I don’t think that family member has heard that part of the episode. So we have to you know, I’ve gotta make sure I’m following my own, Yes. It’s always an over under issue. And over, I mean, why would anybody do anything else? To yes.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:07:24]:

It’s always an over and under issue and over. I mean, why would anybody do anything else? I don’t get it, but we should probably proceed.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:07:30]:

75% of our household is with you. So yes. Alright. So That’s great. In all seriousness, we can joke, but but, I mean, the things that you brought up and you you spoke so eloquently about, like and you could just keep going and keep going and keep going, because there are so many issues and challenges that might hinder someone’s ability to not just survive, but to actually thrive in these educational experiences. It can really be experienced for us in very overwhelming ways. And so before we start talking about some of the techniques, just I I wanna know from you, is it even possible that we could ever even understand, appreciate, empathize with, be educated about all the different things that may show up in our contexts?

Todd Zakrajsek [00:08:18]:

Yeah. That’s interesting. I I don’t think so. And the reason I don’t think so is because, I mean, I’m talking about when I first started teaching, what I knew so little about. I mean, I I understood what education I thought what it looked like, and I knew what I was like as a student in in classes, and I just assumed that he had taught In a certain way, and then little by little, I started meeting different individuals who struggled for for different reasons. And each time I did met a person who struggled with something I thought, oh, I’d never thought of that before, but those people had been in my class before. I’ve had students who’ve Dropped out of school because they were pregnant. I’ve had students have dropped out of school because they ran out of money or because they just couldn’t handle the stress of it, And I just didn’t know it.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:08:59]:

So as we I guess, what I’m saying here is, as we uncover different reasons that students struggle, then we find new Things that we probably could have been doing, so I don’t think we should really get frustrated with ourselves too much, the fact that we’re missing it, we’re as long as we’re doing the best we can. And nobody ever said this was gonna be easy. Todd Whitaker has a quote I love, his teaching is the profession that makes all professions possible. And what I love about that is not only is it that education makes everything possible, which I wholeheartedly believe, but it’s the word it’s a profession. And that means it’s a difficult thing. And so there’s, you know, that common everybody can teach kind of thing, but if you’re a If you’re a professional in a classroom teaching, it’s a tough gig. So I don’t think we can ever say we’re we’re there and we’re doing it. I think we just keep working At it.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:09:50]:

And the biggest thing, probably the most important thing that I’m at least going for these days is an Ian McLaren quote, which I also love. It’s attributed to him to be kind. Everyone is fighting a battle you know nothing about. I may be off a little bit on that, but it’s pretty close. Actually, it’s reported many different ways. And so for me, it was When I read that and really started thinking deeply about that is if everyone is fighting a battle, and I now do totally believe that everybody at any given moment is Fighting something. I don’t need to know what the battle is anymore. I just need to know I just know that there is one.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:10:23]:

And so when I see a behavior that maybe isn’t exactly what I had anticipated, again, I’m not saying right or wrong, it’s what I anticipated, That I know they’re struggling with something, and so my job is to figure out how can I best help them? And not everybody can be helped, and not everybody’s gonna make it this isn’t all on us. It’s on the students as well as us. It’s a team effort, but I need to do my share. And so I’m trying to be better all the time And to help a greater proportion of students, but I don’t know who the next group is that I’m gonna learn about. But I’m excited to find out actually.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:10:54]:

What is so important about what you have just shared is both the magnitude of the problem we couldn’t possibly know. And simultaneously, we don’t then just get to raise our hands up in the emoji shrug and go, well, I guess there’s nothing I can do then. There are things we can do. Where do we begin?

Todd Zakrajsek [00:11:16]:

Yeah. Well and before we move on, even, I guess, I should say is, so often we’ll even look at students who are failing, and I’ve probably done that more than I should have recently, but there’s also students who are getting b’s, who really would love to get an a. And how many times in my But a b is a really good grade in the statistics class. That wasn’t for b to say. Mhmm. The student really was struggling for an a and working really And a student who gets an a maybe wanted to know more. And so the concept is not just the failing students, it’s how do we help each students to get to the point that They probably don’t even know they can get to, but to get to the best possible point. So, yeah, I appreciate what you said.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:11:52]:

Yeah. And that I mean, my gosh, just the grades alone. The the assumptions we can come into. I’m I’m trying not to make an assumption that even everyone’s working toward an a. So that’s that’s something that, Like, I certainly didn’t when I was in college. If it was in my major, I got an a. And if it wasn’t, I got a c. That’s how I worked in college.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:12:10]:

So I I I think sometimes I lose sight because I don’t hear enough examples of people who are aiming for the c. And and you talk about bad versus good, but those grades, I mean, they’re so We have had many episodes about grades, and we will continue to have many episodes about grades, but just that one paradigm is so emblematic of just the broader the broader challenge of trying to understand. And what else I hear you saying, Todd, is that our mindset matters. So where where do we where do we begin? And you’ve you’ve talked about that already a little bit in this in this episode is the mindset is assuming recognizing we’re gonna have assumptions, but working to train our brains to assume what. What do we replace the what may be some of our assumptions that can pop up for us and then what what assumption might be more helpful in our teaching? What set of assumptions?

Todd Zakrajsek [00:13:05]:

So based on assumptions, I mean, again, I I guess, I’m not sure what else to say about that in terms of I don’t know Mhmm. I don’t know what The students are really after until I get to know them. I try to create a community in which the students are comfortable speaking to me, but we can’t stop From discriminating. I mean, those concepts, and we have to be careful. I’m a psychologist. I should make that fair clear. So when I use the word discrimination, It’s to discriminate between 2 stimuli. And so if I pick up something and you can eat it or not eat it, it’s a really helpful thing if you can discriminate what is edible and what is not edible.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:13:39]:

You’re eating mushrooms from the woods, it’s a good idea to be able to discriminate the poisonous ones from the nonpoisonous ones. We can’t stop that kind of discrimination when we look at Certain people or any person, we formulate these things. The the really important thing is what do you do with that once you make a discrimination, then how do you judge it? And if you can back off from prejudging based on this immediate discrimination, that becomes really hard. But, again, All of this stuff is difficult because the brain and my my area is the science of learning, is the brain is just going all the time trying to get any information it can Based on what we’ve seen in the past. And so my lived experience means I look at you in a certain way and our interaction Action is based on your lived experience and how you’re interacting with me, how I’m interacting with you. All of this stuff is going on all the time, so it’s it’s just always Challenging, but I think it’s something we can keep working at.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:14:31]:

I really appreciate that that naming of the word discrimination. I have attempted before on the podcast, and I think probably failed, but may maybe we can get here this time. I’ve attempted to say in my own brain when I think about it, it’s constantly discriminating. Mhmm. And and that’s not a bad thing. I don’t know how we would ever purchase any food to eat, or if you didn’t if you didn’t have some heuristics with which you made decisions and also with which you decided how to best attempt to do what you do, which in our case is to teach. And so one one area that I think can be helpful to us here is when we think about people who may be neurodiverse, what parts of the ways in which we may discriminate could be helpful to us. Like, these these people might show up as differently.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:15:22]:

You and I on a past episode, as one example, you were sharing about a a colleague of yours who was autistic, and then the colleague would follow you to the restroom, and you would need to be like, okay. This conversation is now over, where people who were overhearing you might have thought of that as rather curt. But that and and I have talked with you about my own struggles with sometimes, you know, how do we cut off the conversation, you know, with with colleagues and students where where I work. So where does this discrimination, this sorting when it comes to people? And I realize neurodiversity is such a broad thing, but what comes to mind for you where you go, yeah, some more helpful things just to be aware. This might look a little different or this might, you know here’s are are are you and then which ways do we think, oh, it’s not really so helpful to be sorting in that way? We gotta retrain our brains there.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:16:14]:

Yeah. That’s a great one. And and this is an area that I’m real passionate about because my family, we do have Folks in the autism spectrum in the family. And it’s it’s really interesting because there is an implicit set of assumptions on how we interact with each other as humans. There’s certain tone we use. If we’re getting toward the end of time and you might say, well, this has been great, and that phrase of this has been great should cue that we’re done. That sounds like it’s language that’s clear, but this is the tricky spot. That’s not.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:16:44]:

That’s a code. That’s a code of A a polite way of saying because it’d be rude to say we must end now, and so we we were subtle about it. Well, if you’re on the spectrum, One of the tricky spots is facial expressions are hard to get. Nuances are very hard to get. My daughter one time was she came home and she was so frustrated because There was an exam on Wednesday, and on Monday, the faculty member was going over material, and she said in the middle of going over the material, he says, and here’s something you’re gonna really need, something that’s gonna be really important to you sometime soon. And she said, why would he do that? Why would he take valuable class time and then talk about Something that we might need someday. Like, there’s a test in 2 days. And I said, he he was telling you that that’s going to be on the test for sure.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:17:30]:

And she got really kind of despondent about that because she was so frustrated that he was talking on this tangent, she didn’t pay any attention to that, The most important thing, and the faculty member I know is clear in that person’s own head of I’m gonna tell the students this is what’s on the test without telling what’s on the test. What he managed to do was he managed to convey to the students who picked up that nuance, here’s some points that you’re gonna get. Make sure you get this. And anybody from a 1st generation college student to a group of a marginal oh my word. To even imagine if you’re in a marginalized group and all the subtleties you’ve missed because you weren’t in that group who who created all these subtleties. She ended up with a bad grade on the test if that wouldn’t have happened Had he just said this is going to be on the test. So when we say, I I think we’ve talked about this enough. I mean, Sometimes this doesn’t work.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:18:24]:

And so my point here is that we have that stuff we think is polite. Those are the polite ways of conveying. If a person doesn’t get that, you have to be more direct. So if I said to a colleague or a student who followed me in the restroom, you have to go out into the hallway now, or in class, You need to stop talking now. There’s other people who’d say, wow, that’s rude. But to a person on the spectrum who doesn’t pick up the nuances, in their head, what they hear is, It’s time to stop. And if you don’t do that and you just are being subtle because you think it’s polite, what you’re actually doing is almost like toying with them. And then when they don’t get it, it’s almost like they’re embarrassed by it or they’re frustrated by it.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:19:04]:

And so I think the nuances there become very difficult. And, again, this comes all the way back to there’s a certain way that we tend to speak to individuals that are of a group that We’ve kind of molded our whole educational system around and that’s what we gotta get away from. So sometimes in class, when you have a student and and I can from listeners, You many of you have students who talk too much in class. It may be necessary. Chat with them after class and you may have to say, look, You do talk in class a lot, but you’re not giving other students an opportunity to talk. So here’s what we’re gonna do. From now on, I’m gonna scratch over my ear a little bit when I’m looking at you and you’re talking, and if I’m that is like you need to back it down a little bit. And I’ve done that with students before.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:19:43]:

I’ll say one of my favorites was a guy in the class once. He talked all every answer He gave it I caught him after class and said, dude, you’re so into this stuff and and you obviously are working hard at it. He said, yeah, doctor Z, I love the class. I like you. This is so this is my favorite class ever. And I said, that’s great, but the other students aren’t having an opportunity to participate. So here’s what I’m gonna do. When I ask a question, you don’t answer.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:20:06]:

I let other people answer so that they learn as well, but there are gonna be times when they don’t know it. And when that happens, I’m gonna look at you and you better have the answer for me. And he says, you can count on me. And then I would call on him maybe every 4th question. He was excited because he was helping me, but we we established a way for him to participate. Instead of me just complaining to my colleagues that I have a student who talks too much. So sometimes you have to say to somebody, I’m sorry, but we’re done here. So we’re out of time and we must stop.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:20:37]:

In terms of mindset and also in terms of approaches that we may employ, which are of course built on values and beliefs, what are some other things we should avoid doing to minimize the number of students that might be left behind?

Todd Zakrajsek [00:20:55]:

Well, I think one of the biggest ones is to not assume that everybody learns the way you did. You know, there’s a phrase out there that has been around forever is that we teach the way we are taught, And I don’t believe we teach the way we are taught. I was taught in multiple different ways. I was taught through groups and role plays and everything else. The storytelling lecture, I loved the storytelling lecture. So that’s the way I teach because it makes most sense to me. That’s how obviously people learn. Turns out not everybody learns the way I learn.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:21:22]:

And so faculty members, my friends who are out there listening to this, when you think to yourself, I’m gonna do this for my students because it’s gonna make that Make it easier for them. Keep in mind, it may be what made it easier for you. And this is why you really like some students more than others even though we never say that is because they’re like us. So they’re not don’t assume that. Secondly, always keep in mind we’re teaching we we teach classes, but we don’t really. We’re teaching individuals in a class. So I teach courses now, but I really teach people. I guess, I assigned courses that I teach people.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:21:57]:

So Mhmm. Teaching individuals. Another one is to look for the value in every individual. And, I mean, this is out there and people will say this all the time is, you know, each Person brings a value. But, seriously, within an educational system, especially, look for the value they bring. I’m gonna tell you right now, people who are on the autism spectrum, ADHD, struggling with food insecurities, have children, single parents, All of those individuals, I learn more from them now than I do from a standard student who’s got resources, who lives in the dorm, comes back not minimizing that person at all. 100% not minimizing them. But I’ve I’ve lived like that life, and so I can kind of assume a lot of it.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:22:38]:

I don’t know what it’s like to be a single parent raising 3 kids. I can’t imagine that one, but I can talk to students And kinda get that a little bit. And I do think that’s part of it too is try to create that atmosphere where you’re really comfortable speaking with students, letting them know the boundaries, And be careful because as you get to know them, sometimes they feel familiar with you and they’ll share things they probably shouldn’t. So be careful with the lines, But make it comfortable to do that and also approach them in ways that that is comfortable, for you, especially. But, I just did a workshop recently. And Just before the workshop started, we were all talking and looking around, and I noticed there was a woman in the middle of the room who had a a leader dog. And my family used to raise leader dogs for the blind. So I walked over and I said, just wanna let you know, my name is Todd.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:23:24]:

I’m the facilitator. First of all, I approached her assuming she couldn’t see me. She might have had partial vision, but I didn’t know, so I assumed she didn’t so that we covered that base, and she said, oh, this is great. And I said, I’m just curious. I didn’t know if you’re how how your vision is or if you were blind, and she said I’m blind. I said, okay. Good. That’s helpful for me.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:23:41]:

Is there anything that I could do while I present that would make this process easier for you? And she said, well, if you could just explain what’s on the slide, I’d really appreciate that. And I said, okay. So anytime I put something up, I’d said, as you can see from this graph showing this bar chart up here, that 1st bar is something that’s very important. I did it in a way different from saying Rachel wanted me to explain this to you to her. So I did it that. I asked her for anything else that she could you know, anything else I could do to help her. And she said the slides, and so I quickly emailed those to her before the session started. But as she was in the middle of the session, I actually called on her a couple times specifically.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:24:16]:

And I said, oh, by the way, Rachel, you had your hand up a little bit earlier. What do you think? And she worked with students and she provided some fabulous perspectives. And when I was done, she sent me an email and she said, of all of the workshops I’ve onto. Nobody had ever done that before. The of all the workshops that she’d gone to, nobody had ever stopped to talk to her and said, what do you need? And so I really appreciate that. I don’t consider myself anything special. I just I stopped and talked to her because I thought, here’s a student who different from the way that I might normally teach.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:24:47]:

I love this story so much because it is precisely what I was attempting to clumsily say before. You’re you’re telling a story about, hey. I’ve seeing dogs like that before. I like like, I I’m getting I’m getting a sense of possibly what might be going on with a person. So I had a similar thing. I I taught many years ago as an adjunct at a very large university. I work at a very small one. So it’s very very large university, r one here in Southern California.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:25:20]:

And So I I should also share that when I was 6 and 7 and 8, I used to go with my mom to the junior college as she took American sign language classes. So I actually learned a lot of sign for a 6, 7, and 8 year old, but I was by no means fluent. And then when I was in high school, I took the similar classes and earned some college credit I while I was in high school. And then finally, when I was in college, I babysat for a 2 year old boy who was deaf. So Not a lot of no one’s gonna hire me to be their interpreter, but I I understand the formula of the language and how it is different than English, for example. So I I had a woman show up to class, and she appeared to me to be deaf. And so I said something, like, it just kinda I didn’t even think, but instantly, I said something to her in sign language, and then She made the assumption that I actually spoke. It’s like like, oh, woah.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:26:19]:

Woah. Woah. Woah. And I and I started thinking in my head, Todd. Okay. Yeah. So while I hadn’t really thought I’d have someone in my class who was deaf. Okay.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:26:29]:

Like, all the All the past experience starts coming out. Okay. Like, how am I

Todd Zakrajsek [00:26:32]:

gonna do this?

Bonni Stachowiak [00:26:33]:

How am I gonna and, of course, you’re probably laughing already because it’s like, well, no. It’s a public university. They are gonna have not just 1 interpreter, but they’re actually are gonna be 2 because they’re gonna need to take breaks. This would be the case if someone was blind, If someone was deaf, whatever sort of of accessibility Yeah. Accommodations that may be provided in a class, you know, you’re gonna have those sorts of resources and stuff, but It’s you just helped with that story illuminate where that sorting is helpful. Oh, this person might be autistic or otherwise somewhere fitting in the neurodiverse you know, universe of things, or this person might be visually impaired. But just to have a sense of then general mapping of the kinds of things someone might need. Yeah.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:27:22]:

And of course, the better we are at this is to actually have this baked into our class using techniques like universal design for learning and things like that, making sure that our our classes are accessible, you know, from the ground up. But this such a great example of you being wise to know the kinds of needs she might have without making assumptions about her when you’ve just met her and seen her dog. So just Really, really great illustration. And I know you have 1 more piece of advice for us in terms of what to avoid here.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:27:52]:

Yeah. The last one’s just That we’re gonna make mistakes, and I actually start every time I start a workshop, every time I start my class, whatever I do is I start with, in my heart, I will do everything I can to make this a good learning experience for everyone, and there’s a high probability I will make a mistake. The best thing you could do for me is please let me know. It’s something you feel comfortable and you think it’s important, raise your hand, and I’m okay. Call me out during class or catch me afterwards and let me know. But the only way I’ll get better is if you explain it to me and the only way I’m gonna help people is by pushing harder and trying to to just address as many things as I can. So when I make a mistake, help me out, But we’re all gonna make mistakes.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:28:33]:

I have known you now for more than 9 years, and I can declare then that this is not something that you speak of without heart, and it is not also something that you speak of without it being personal to you. Would you would you talk a little bit about just why this matters to you, not just as a giving great advice to people that you get an opportunity to speak to, but how this really goes down to the core?

Todd Zakrajsek [00:29:02]:

Yeah. This is always kind of a tricky one for me too. As at the book, The New Science of Learning, I put it in the I got kinda got the prologue and epilogue kind of thing. I told the story of of my experience, and I’ll do a quick version here. When I went to school I’m a 1st generation college student, and I came from a family that struggled a bit to get by. And I went off to school and I signed up for my classes, and I signed up for introduction to criminal justice. I was gonna be a state trooper. Introduced CJ, and then it said you had to have a math class, so I thought, oh, I like calculus.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:29:31]:

So I signed up for calculus. It said you had to have a science course, and so I thought, I’ll take chemistry. And then it said you had to have a lab course, and I thought all science courses have labs, but I better be careful and make sure. So I signed up for physics. Then I signed up for intro to psych, and I thought, boom, I’m ready to go. As the grades started to come in, my 1st grade was introduction to criminal justice, which I got a d minus, and I thought, oh, I’ve not seen many d minuses in my life. And then my next grade was calculus, which was an f. I’d not seen any f’s before.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:29:59]:

And then I had chemistry, which was an f minus, and I thought or physics, I guess, was an f minus, and I thought it cannot get worse than this. And then my chemistry grade was an f minus minus, 38%. And when I went to the professor and said, I don’t understand this f minus minus, his response, and I remember this, I was 17 years old. It was a long time ago. And he said, given you received an f minus minus, it doesn’t surprise me you failed to comprehend it. He blamed me for this f minus. And the problem was and I guess I should’ve been the one to be blamed because I didn’t understand how college worked. I was a smart high school student.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:30:34]:

I didn’t get college. I went to the registrar. I asked the registrar. I said, hey. I’m flunking out all my classes. My mom couldn’t help me. She kept saying, we believe in you and try your hardest, but she didn’t have specific advice because she never went to college. 1st generation college student.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:30:48]:

You don’t get that kind of advice. And so I went to the registrar. I got she says, get signatures from your faculty members. Bring it back to me, and I’ll take care of it. And I realized as I was getting the signatures, it was 6 weeks. And I dreamed about going to college and I was headed home. I was done. And everybody signed the form except Tim Sawyer, my intro psych professor.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:31:07]:

And he refused to sign it, and he said, just let’s learn how to re learn how to learn. I said, well, you can’t learn how to learn. He said, actually, you can, And I did. I did not know you could drop a class. He said drop your chemistry class, you can’t survive that, and he taught me how to be a college student. And I ended up graduating. I was a I was actually on the student government, so I got to speak at graduation, which was a real trip for me. And then I actually got honorary doctorate in 20 2019 just before the pandemic hit, and I was back at the stage at that same school.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:31:40]:

They’re the ones who gave me the honorary doctorate. And I stood up there and basically told the story of being, like, 1 signature short of none of this whole life of mine happening. I’m sure good things would have happened, but not this. And the other one that is personal to me is I am actually we talk about this. I do talk about a little bit more, and I’ve known you a long time. I haven’t talked much in the past. I am a tiny bit on the spectrum and I’m a tiny bit ADHD. And so those of you who know me will say, ah, this makes more sense.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:32:10]:

And my daughter is on the spectrum, and I watched her go through school. She’s she struggles a whole lot more than I do, But I am one of those people that you have to look at. Those of you I will tell you, my friends who are listening, now you know in the future you have to say, Todd, you need to stop talking and we need to leave because all those subtleties you’ve tried is the reason that I talk a lot. I don’t get those. But She struggled so much going through school, and she would take 4 classes a semester, but she couldn’t handle them so she would have to drop some of her courses. There were faculty members who worked with her, and she would get a’s. There’s others who wouldn’t work with her, and she’d get f’s. She went to school with a’s and f’s.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:32:49]:

She graduated with a 2.001 from UNC Chapel Hill in philosophy, a tough department. But she did it because there were students or faculty members who would stop and work with her. This is personal for me because if I hadn’t have been a college Student, she or a graduate. She never would have made it through because I helped her all along the way, but I wouldn’t have known how to help her. And I Was lucky enough to have Tim Sawyer, but, I mean, except for a couple of people, these individuals are just done and quickly. And so it’s real personal to me. And The more the more individuals that I work with, and I know this is true of the listeners out there, the more individuals you have worked with, The more special it becomes and the more important it becomes. And we all start to realize that the students who fail and this is what I really really thought when I was Almost flunked out of school.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:33:41]:

Had I gone home, had I flunked out, all those faculty would have blamed me for it. He didn’t care. He didn’t work hard enough. He wasn’t motivated. He didn’t have the prereqs and they were wrong all the way down the line. I didn’t know how to learn And I didn’t understand the college life. So that’s why it’s real personal to me, and we know the value of a college degree. And so I’ll leave it with this.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:34:05]:

Knowing what we do about the value of a college degree, I would consider it myself to be a moral imperative That I do what I can to get a student through. Because if the student doesn’t make it through, their life is way different than if it does. And if they don’t make it through because they don’t do the homework or they don’t they just don’t do it, that’s on them. And, you know, if I’ve tried, that’s on them too. But if they’re motivated and they’ve got the prereqs, I if they don’t if they don’t pass because of the way I teach, And that’s just heartbreaking. And so I keep working at it. I’ll make mistakes, but I’m gonna keep working at it.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:34:40]:

Yeah. I love your way of phrasing in terms of looking inside yourself and always wanting to be growing and developing and having the humility that’s necessary to do that. And, yes, of course, recognizing that it takes multiple people for these things to work. It isn’t it isn’t entirely on you, but you’re just that kind of person and and maybe a whole bunch of why that you’re kinda that kind of person is your care your care for other people and wanting to see them succeed.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:35:09]:

Yeah. I just I mean, guess, my my newest thought in my head was nobody fails alone. So

Bonni Stachowiak [00:35:15]:

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much. I love this conversation. I love that we’re going to get to continue having them. I was just the other day searching for your name on the teaching and higher ed website, which by the way, a lot of people don’t know. You can go to teachinginhighered.com. You can click on podcasts.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:35:32]:

A lot of people listen via their podcast catcher, whatever app they use. But if you’re ever looking for a particular topic or a specific person, You go to teachinginhighered.com, you go click on podcasts, and then you can search by guest, so that would list out all the ones that Todd’s been on. And besides Dave, I haven’t I I yeah. I haven’t actually, like, tested this theory, but I am fairly sure. I’m 99% sure You are the most often on Teaching in Higher Ed besides him. And but the other day I was looking and it was uneven. So it’s a it’s 2 columns. Oh.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:36:07]:

And so I was so looking forward to this episode will come out, and then it’ll be back to being even. And then I think we have to schedule it where, like, you come pretty quick so that I don’t have to live too long with that little list of Todd Sipresick episodes being being uneven. And then you also can search by the way, there’s a browsable tax Sonomy. I am really big into thinking through usability, not just from a, like, accessibility or or does it work thing, but also just how to get people more curious to sometimes ask questions they don’t know. So maybe you don’t know Todd’s name, or maybe you don’t know the guest, or not even sure what kind of a topic that you might be interested in. That’s what I love about the taxonomy. And for Yeah. Anybody listening who might have advice for me, who maybe has looked at that taxonomy before, I’m thinking about burning it to the ground once again.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:36:53]:

I burned it to the ground about actually, I didn’t even have a taxonomy, but I I started that maybe 7 years ago or so. And I look at it today and I just go, oh, yeah. See, artificial intelligence isn’t anywhere, and I’m having a lot of episodes and conversations about that. And there’s some ones like I really really love connected learning. I think that’s a phenomenal way to approach our teaching. I think there’s 3 episodes in it. So I’m in I’m in this, like, having to be like, you can hold off till summer of 2024 before you burn your entire me down. But anyway, so there’s browsable categories Yeah.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:37:28]:

Searchable topics and all of that for people to go and explore. But I just love this conversation. I love that we’re gonna have more. And I’ve known you this long, Todd, that in fact, we have established a informal kind of a partnership where I already was sharing about the Lilly Conferences, and you already were sharing about Teaching in Higher Ed. But we actually have, like, a Official thing where we set aside episodes and you are with intentionality, making sure that you are making people aware. Would you share a little bit about the Lilly Conferences? And we’ll be sure and have a link in the show notes for anyone who wants to find out more about them.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:38:02]:

Excellent. Well, thank you. Yeah. First of all, I met you at a Lilly conference, which is kinda cool. Yep. Long time ago. So Lilly Conferences are based on Lilly Foundation Funded for about 3 years for Milcaux to get this conversation about teaching and learning, and they’ve been going on for about 40 years. They only funded it for about the 1st 3 years.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:38:20]:

And After that, they said you can keep the name, but there was no more funding. So I like to tell people we might have started on drug money, but we’re 37 years clean. Okay. I don’t wanna offend anybody there. But, so the concept here is that they’ve been around for about 40 years. They’re really based on effective teaching and learning for anybody in higher education. It’s not discipline specific, and quite frankly, there’s lots and lots of issues we find out that cross disciplines. The real hallmark of the Lilly Conferences is we work Hard on community.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:38:50]:

And so when people come there, they feel like they are part of a group. And I will say they right now, there are 4 of them per year. They’re in Austin, San Diego, Asheville, North Carolina and Traverse City, Michigan. I try to find cities that are fun. And I will end with this, and I just got a A compliment that was so cool at the last conference. A young lady, a faculty member who was new faculty member came up to me and she said, Todd, I just wanna let you know that this conference Totally lived up to the hype. And that is such a great compliment because she had heard from multiple people that they were great conferences, and then she told me it lived up

Bonni Stachowiak [00:39:26]:

to it. So I really appreciate

Todd Zakrajsek [00:39:26]:

that, but I would love it if people would come. And so appreciate your along with dimension that.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:39:31]:

Yeah. And I am at most of the ones that are held in San Diego unless something gets in the way of my schedule. And one of these days, I’d love to get to one of the other ones because what you talk about in terms of relationships, and community really, really shows up in such profound ways for me. I tend to not even attend all the sessions because I’ll get completely enthralled with someone that where I just my imagination is on fire and it’s so so very fun. And or even when I was there in January, sitting down even afterward and having to get kicked out of the ballroom because they’re trying to clean up and all. It’s always

Todd Zakrajsek [00:40:02]:

a good one. Yeah.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:40:03]:

So Like, yeah. Losing track of time. Yep.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:40:07]:

That’s Bonni. That happens.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:40:09]:

So please, you know, check out the link in the in the show notes and and go check those out if you ever have an opportunity. Highly, highly recommend them. And speaking of recommendations, I have a recommendation to get if you don’t already have this in your tool set, get yourself a color picker app. And color picker apps are good for two reasons. One is, is that you if you have a color that you want to know, well, what what is that color? And how is it represented? And it might be a color that you could represent in a digital way, so it would have a certain set of letters and numbers that you could copy and paste into, say, Canva if you’re making a graphic? Like, what is that exact orange? I like that orange. I wanna use that orange in my graphic. What is that orange? Well, it might it might be something that you’re gonna print out. So maybe you need The color as it is described to print people who print things, because printing on paper is a different color mechanism than how colors look on your monitor, which is also different by the way than how colors look when you project them using a projector.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:41:14]:

I I learned that by the way. Guess I didn’t learn it. I was reminded of that decades ago when I used to work for UCI and I built their workplace violence series of courses, and it looked beautiful on people’s screens. But when I showed it at a big fancy meeting on the projector, it looked like really, really ugly color of urine. So, yes, you gotta be careful. Oh, damn. Yeah. You gotta be careful as you think through these things.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:41:38]:

But anyway, so color picker apps are great for that. They are also great for being disciplined about being consistent with your color scheme. So I don’t have a big budget for Teaching in Higher Ed. I also don’t have a big budget for the area that I lead at my university called teaching and learning, and people will often think that in either of those 2 contexts, I have access to a heck of a lot more marketing dollars than I ever do. You can go so far if you just discipline yourself, whether this is a personal brand because you’re a speaker or you have a blog or even with just your slide decks that you build your classes, that kind of a thing. If you discipline yourself to have a color scheme, you can go so far because people don’t don’t even know what you’re doing, but it’s just like they associate that with you. In fact, Todd, this is kind of a random association, but I had changed my profile some years ago on a social network that I don’t even like to name anymore, but it used to be called something that rhymes with Twitter. And so, people associated me with the color a blazer that I had on on the old profile picture.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:42:43]:

And then and they were like, but no, you’re that color. Like, that blazer is supposed to be that color. So If you do discipline yourself about that, your color your color picker app can store that. So it’s just a click away. Oh, that’s pink that I use or that’s the blue that I use, and it’s easy to access. So I wanna mention the specific color picker app that I use. It is Mac only. So if you’re on Windows, You just go and find the color picker app that’s really good on on Windows, but the one I use is called Sip, like you’re taking a sip of a drink.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:43:13]:

The SIP app on Mac, it is amazing. And and it’s funny because it’s living on my screen right now, so anytime I sort of hover over, I have all of our different color schemes. We do one for our faculty gathering every year. I’ve got one for Teaching in Higher Ed, and I do different slide decks. We’ve got a good news video series that we do at my institutions. It’s just so fun to always have these sets of colors and be very disciplined about if you’re doing sharing about something something, it’s always gonna be those colors and to have it so easy to access is just an amazing thing. So that’s what I wanted to recommend, and I’ll pass it over to you for yours.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:43:50]:

And I’ll just make sure so that means it gives you the Pantone numbers. Right?

Bonni Stachowiak [00:43:53]:

Pantone numbers or the the hex colors hex colors if you’re on digital. Yeah. It’s amazing. Amazing.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:43:59]:

That’s so cool. Mine’s gonna be real quick, and I have to admit it took me a little while, but I am now kind of rolling on it is I’ve moved into Bluesky.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:44:08]:

I forgot you were sorry. You we can name that one. Yes. Yes. I’m there too.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:44:14]:

Oh, okay. We can say that? We’re all good with that one?

Bonni Stachowiak [00:44:16]:

Yeah. I mean, I’m excited now. There’s 1 we can name. Yes. Yes.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:44:19]:

Yeah. That’s 1 we do like. I did I used to be on Twitter, and then it went to x, And I had to quit doing it because I kept accidentally closing this the app all the time.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:44:29]:

Isn’t that funny?

Todd Zakrajsek [00:44:30]:

Because it’s an x. It’s an x. But, it’s it’s I just wanna point out to folks is that it’s been so refreshing. There’s not a ton of people on there, but it is a quickly growing one. And I will tell you when I first got on there is I was struck so quickly by the lack of ads, the lack of political discourse, and the just the Tetrality of people yelling at each other and the troll kind of feelings, it’s just not there. And so it’s it was like the old days of being able to just Collaborate and talk to colleagues. So Bluesky, it’s great. It can be a little tricky because you need a code to get in and they’re doing that so that That bots can all jump in there at one time.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:45:11]:

But if you check around and even on Twitter, if you know people, just ask People does anybody out there have a code? And I did that and got, like, 4 people said, oh, yeah. Here’s 1. So your friends will help you out, but Bluesky has been really really good experience.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:45:24]:

Gather. There was a lot of sort of cautionary notes about the ways in which the disability community had really been able to thrive on Twitter. So there were some very people that I respect highly saying, you know, don’t all just throw this away instantly. And those same people now are over on Bluesky, I and I’ll put a link in the show notes too. There’s a place where if you are on Blue Sky, you could donate your codes to members of the disability community who are, now really ready to make a transition for some of the reasons that Todd mentioned. So, yeah, I’ll put that that link. If you’re already there, please connect with Todd. Connect with me.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:46:00]:

I’m just getting started there, but I’m enjoying it as well. And then I’ll also put a link for those donate codes if you’re there, that you could pass that on to members who may find a more hospitable space over on Bluesky.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:46:11]:

Excellent.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:46:12]:

Todd So, Krycek, thank you so much for today. Thank you for the next time and the next time and the next time. I always love any conversation I get to have with you.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:46:19]:

And Bonni Stachowiak, I enjoy speaking with you as well. So look forward to future conversation.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:46:25]:

I’m not sure I’ve ever heard you say my last name. You also say it well as well. There we go.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:46:30]:

I like your last name. By the way, I learned how to say it from Dave, so it’s not as Mhmm. Someone who taught me.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:46:36]:

So good. So good. Thank you, Todd. Until next time.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:46:39]:

Thank you.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:46:42]:

Thanks once again to Todd Zakrajsek for being a guest on today’s episode. Today’s episode was produced by me, Bonni Stachowiak. It was edited by the ever talented Andrew Kroeger. Podcast production support was provided by Sierra Smith. If you’ve been listening for a while and you’ve yet to sign up for the weekly update, Head over to teachinginhighered.com/subscribe. You’ll receive not only the most recent episodes show notes, but also some other resources that might be helpful to you and some recommendations that don’t show up on the regular show. Thanks so much for listening, and I’ll see you next time on teaching and higher ed.

Teaching in Higher Ed transcripts are created using a combination of an automated transcription service and human beings. This text likely will not represent the precise, word-for-word conversation that was had. The accuracy of the transcripts will vary. The authoritative record of the Teaching in Higher Ed podcasts is contained in the audio file.