Bonni Stachowiak [00:00:00]:

Today on episode number 571 of the teaching in higher ed podcast, overcoming imposter syndrome through joyful curiosity with Jackie Shay.

Production Credit: Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Welcome to this episode of Teaching in Higher Ed. I’m Bonni Stachowiak, and this is the space where we explore the art and science of being more effective at facilitating learning. We also share ways to improve our productivity approaches so we can have more peace in our lives and be even more present for our students. I am thrilled to be having this conversation with Jackie Shay that is going to be so relatable to so many of you. She is, as you will hear throughout this interview, a joyful educator, researcher, and advocate for inclusive and student centered science education as an assistant teaching professor in ecology, evolution, and marine biology at UC Santa Barbara, where she studies the impact of meaningful learning experiences from joy centered pedagogy to graduate student and undergraduate learning assistant professional development and course based undergraduate learning experiences. She believes every student can find the joy in the learning process and is committed to fostering an ecosystem of collaborative and engaged learning in biology.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:01:49]:

Trained as a fungal evolutionary biologist and microbial ecologist, Dr. Shay is fascinated by symbolic relationships between plants and their microbial communities, particularly how these relationships respond to environmental change. Jackie Shay, welcome to Teaching in Higher Ed.

Jackie Shay [00:02:10]:

Thank you so much for having me. It’s a pleasure and honor to be here.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:02:14]:

We’ve just met for the first time, so I’m thinking it’s totally appropriate for me to have you dive in a totally inappropriate level of disclosure. Would you please share your innermost fears about being a fraud?

Jackie Shay [00:02:30]:

Oh, wow. You like to just cut right to the chase. Don’t you

Bonni Stachowiak [00:02:33]:

bother? I totally do. Let’s go. No warm ups. No warm up. How are you today? Let’s just get right in.

Jackie Shay [00:02:41]:

Let’s talk about fraud. Yes. I tend to think about this this idea of fear coming from fraud and a couple questions that have kind of evolved with me over time. And really, the biggest question for me has always just been, you know, what if what if I’m just not smart as people think that I am? Right? Like, what if I get caught? What if somebody asked me a question and I just look like a total idiot and I don’t say the right thing or I don’t say it the way I’m supposed to say it? You know, just take the degrees off my wall. I don’t deserve them. They’re not supposed to be mine. They they don’t they shouldn’t be there. And that that’s really the the the way that fraud kind of is loud in my head, the voice that I hear about fraud.

Jackie Shay [00:03:22]:

But But I’ve also been asking myself, you know, what if what if my success is not because I’m smart or because I’m a gifted scientist, but what if it’s just because I’m really good at being productive? What if it’s just because I’m really good at, like, staying organized and getting stuff done? And so people put me in positions to get stuff done, and then I’ve, like, gotten as far as I’ve gotten because I’m really good at getting stuff done. And so, like, what if it’s really not about being, like, brilliant at all? So I really doubt that success sometimes. But then lately and it’s funny because it’s just a couple weeks ago when I got my emails from my students, like, this was highlighted for me there. But sometimes I also ask myself, like, what if my story is a liability? What if being like a queer woman in science, a mom, a first generation student, a dreamer? What if like all these aspects about my intersectional identity, like are a reason for people to doubt my ability? And now as somebody who in who embraces joy in my life, from a day to day basis, joy has also become a part of my identity. And sometimes that is a hard pill, especially in today’s climate for for others to swallow. You know, they see me walking around with joy, and they sort of they say, like, oh, you’re just being overly positive or, like, you’re you have no idea what’s going on in the world. You know, you’re naive. And so, like, sometimes I get in my head about, like, even imposter syndrome about about being joyful.

Jackie Shay [00:04:49]:

And then and then and I start to ask myself, like, why is it this way? And so I’m so glad that I have found other people who have recently felt joy as well and finding community there. But fraud has emerged in my life in so many different ways. And it continues to emerge, it doesn’t ever seem to go away. It doesn’t really matter like how far along I get in life or how many degrees are on my wall. It still is there and very prevalent all the time.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:05:17]:

Thank you so much for the vulnerability that that took to not only share with me today, but also you’ve written so beautifully about it in this chapter. And I think so many of us are asking such similar questions. And I have found it interesting when I do share I talk often about what the painstaking thing that it has been to have this podcast. Because if I’m at my best, it’s actually not at all about being smart, and it’s actually about being curious. Mhmm. And I’ll never win that I’m the smartest person in the room, and that’s I don’t know. That to say that that scares other people is maybe not even the most precise thing. It’s almost like I offend them because I would ever have the audacity to say I wasn’t the smartest person in the room.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:06:04]:

I’m like, well, first of all I mean, first of all, I I recognize we should state that there are theories of multiple intelligence. And so that’s Yes. So but what I’m when I’m saying smart, I specifically mean intellectually. How freeing it is. I don’t really wanna win that game because actually because I I wouldn’t win the game. And why do we have to like, why why do we why is it important for me to pretend that I ever could like, I I’m not even in that case experiencing imposter syndrome. I’m just experiencing actually celebrating my unique strengths.

Jackie Shay [00:06:36]:

Yes.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:06:37]:

I would I would kinda like to compete in the I don’t I actually don’t really wanna compete, but, like, collaborate no. What’s it called? Cooperative competition. Like, it would be so fun to be in a room of people that were collectively trying to be the most curious people in the world. Like, sign me up for being on that team, you know, to to join that. But to be the most smartest person in the room in terms of intellect, I don’t know. Like, that’s but especially in STEM fields, we see that a lot. Right? You I’m sure you’ve experienced that.

Jackie Shay [00:07:06]:

Absolutely. There’s, like, these assumptions about these these degrees and these experiences we’ve had, but, you know, I I definitely see myself as being someone who’s, you know, who has different types of intelligences that haven’t that haven’t necessarily been highlighted in in academia or certainly in stem, like emotional intelligence. And so I talk a lot about emotion with my colleagues and with my students, and I can’t tell you how many times they sort of come back to me and say, like, I you know, emotion doesn’t feel like something that’s very objective. And like, it’s not. But it certainly informs our understanding of things and our experiences with things. And like, why can’t we lean into that more? Why can’t we recognize that these different types of intelligences have just as much value as intellectual intelligence? And so I’m definitely over time recognizing that. But certainly, the the little imposter syndrome voice in my head is very loud and strong all the time. And I I see that in my students, and I see that in others too.

Jackie Shay [00:08:02]:

And so I I just I, like, wanna give everyone a big hug. You know? Like, let us everyone know it’s gonna be okay.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:08:09]:

Share with us about over your career some of the visceral memories that you have about what happened to your joy over those years?

Jackie Shay [00:08:19]:

Yeah. So in in education in the classroom, you know, I have a lot of energy. I don’t know if you could tell, but I have a ton of energy, and the energy does come from a place of joy that sort of naturally is in me. But many times in my life, that energy has been misunderstood in so many ways. Sometimes, you know, I’ve been told, oh, you’re too much, or you need to relax, or you need to slow down and stay quiet. And in class as a child, it was really interpreted as like a silliness, and I was seen as this, like, class clown, not taken very seriously, especially in my math classes and by my science teachers. I remember in the fourth grade, I would get quite a bit I would get in quite a lot of trouble for just daydreaming. And it got to a point where every time I would just look out a window in class, I was sent to the principal’s office.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:09:06]:

Oh my goodness.

Jackie Shay [00:09:07]:

For marveling the genius engineering of a spider’s web. And and over time, I honestly started to believe that school was just not the place to dream. Like, it wasn’t for dreamers, and I knew I was a dreamer. And it definitely made me feel like I was not supposed to be there. It made it it was clear to me that joy was just for the playground, not the classroom.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:09:31]:

You tell us though that despite sort of the way that you were socialized, taught to what what is school for, all those things that you’ve found an anecdote. Is that the right word, anecdote? I I was like, I need to watch more superhero movies. So there’s the Kryptonite and then no. You know what I’m saying?

Jackie Shay [00:09:51]:

Yeah. Yeah.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:09:51]:

Well, is that the word I’m looking for, anecdote? I I feel like I should pause and look up this in the dictionary. The cure. How about we use the cure as our word? So tell us about curiosity. Antidote. Antidote. See, I knew I knew like, my brain knew that it wasn’t the right word, but it couldn’t find the right word. I love

Jackie Shay [00:10:12]:

find an antidote in the anecdote.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:10:15]:

There we go. I was very curious about my own, chicken scratch notes to myself with autocorrect not helping me in this particular instance. Alright. Tell us about curiosity. Yeah. And take us to some of those places where you found so much joy.

Jackie Shay [00:10:31]:

Well, I I think it goes back to toddlerhood. I mean, I think we can all remember a time when we lost ourselves in curious play as a toddler. I mean, for me, I vividly remember these very hot, humid summers in, New Jersey when I was three years old. And these little fluffy seed heads of these dandelions were just all over the yard, and I would run from one to the other, like kicking them and chasing the seeds as they floated away. And essentially, I was appreciating seed dispersal at the age of three. And and these little moments of curiosity, I mean, they are available and accessible to all of us as kids. I mean, Bonni, I’m kinda curious. Did you have moments like this as a kid?

Bonni Stachowiak [00:11:15]:

Well, I’m cracking up, and I’m sort of, like, having one of those moments, like, do I actually want to admit this? So I can’t remember having that orientation to the scientific aspects of those things. So the memory that was getting evoked for me as you’re telling your story is being in Joshua Tree. We our family used to own a small plot of land where we would go camping. And I have memories of my brother and I creating a whole world out there in the rock formations, and there are these quartz crystals and stuff. But I’m embarrassed to tell you and, you know, however many thousands of people listen to this episode, but I’m just gonna say it. It was a form of currency. So there were different there would be different types of plants that we would collect. And based on how scarce the material was was how much our little marketplace, how much it would cost or how how valuable this product is that we were sold sell.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:12:10]:

So it’s like, I’m kinda feeling icky. Like, I’ve just bought into the whole capitalism system at a very young age. But, yeah, I didn’t find I don’t have memories of, like, getting curious about it from a nature standpoint or a science standpoint, but definitely, like, collecting things, sorting things was is I and I have a very, very powerful memories around that for sure.

Jackie Shay [00:12:34]:

Oh my gosh. My sister and I, we would do the same thing. We would sort of play fairies in the mountains, and we would, like, we would go around and we would have these different regions. Right? Like, over here is, like, the blackberry world and, like, that’s where no. We’re the blackberry family, and then it’s, like, separated by these rocks. And then we would, you know, become we would transform into these archaeologists and and start digging up the rocks and finding dinosaur bones and, like, immediately what you just said about, like, sorting and categorizing. I mean, that’s totally science. I mean, I know you were sort of looking at it through an economics lens.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:13:05]:

Oh, I’m already feeling better, though. Please tell me more. Tell me more about the science that was You know,

Jackie Shay [00:13:11]:

think about what we do in an herbarium, you know, when we collect these, like, sheets of, like, mushrooms and plants of lichen, and we sort of name them and we categorize them and we document them. I mean, that, like, that, like, natural curiosity about collecting things and seeing how they differentiate between each other. I mean, that’s biodiversity. Right? I mean, even as simple as, like, playing with blocks and knocking them over. I mean, that’s physics. Right? When we, like, blow bubbles in our milk with our straw and all the little bubbles pile on top of each other, that’s chemistry. I mean, just this past weekend, I went to the beach with my family and my kids are playing in the sand and building sand castles. And my son, he’s four.

Jackie Shay [00:13:50]:

He’s, like, methodically engineering all these worlds with sand castles. And my daughter, who’s two, just runs up and starts knocking them all down. And he you know, my son is all upset, but it’s like, her intention was not evil or anything. She just wanted to see what would happen if she knocked over those sand castles. Right? It’s like, again, thinking about physics. And so it’s in there, like, it’s in all of us. As an adult, I I really found that my curiosity was very well fed in nature. I would go on these hikes and see all the ways in which plants and animals would sort of change across the landscapes.

Jackie Shay [00:14:24]:

But even sometimes I would take a tough phone call and, like, go sit on the grass outside, And I just, like, let my fingers sort of sift through the blades of grass, and I would like as I’m listening to the person on the end of the end of the phone sort of talk to me, I would, like, find these little creatures on the grass that live in these little tiny forests. And sometimes I pull the grass out of the ground, and I would look at how the soil is, like, clinging to the roots. And I would sort of ask these questions about, like, the intimacy of these plant microbe interactions. And the at that intersection of root and soil. And then these questions became so so loud, so motivating to me that I eventually earned my doctorate asking those same exact questions. And so when I reflect back on my motivation to pursue science, I’m really humbled by the accessibility of the question through our curiosity that’s natural to all of us. It was right there in my hands when I’m just sitting there. And I love that everyone has access to these questions and that curiosity and that everyone can find joy in that space as long as we don’t lose it.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:15:31]:

Your stories first of all, thank you for celebrating my scientific knowledge. I didn’t realize I had at such a young age. But your stories reminding me so much of conversations I’ve been able to have with Anissa Ramirez, and she talks about watching three two one contact, the bloodhound gang when she was little. And I have this quote, which I have shared so many times with so many different audiences that I could practically say it word for word. But she says, I I saw this is that thing called science, and then I could see myself doing that thing called science. And in terms of the sorting thing that you’re talking about, one way that a word that comes up a lot for sorting that’s maybe not as helpful is this word rigor. Rigor is a word that means lots of different things to lots of different people. What has that word meant to you when it comes to joy?

Jackie Shay [00:16:27]:

Rigor has had such an interesting relationship in my life. I mean, it’s it’s sort of really started off for me as being this force that basically prevented entry for me into this world of science. And as I became a scientist, I started to recognize, like, what the power of rigor can be when it’s reframed. And so now my understanding of rigor is it’s it’s really not about making things hard just for the sake of it being hard and seeing who can get through it. It’s about supporting the learning by doing meaningful, challenging work that promotes growth, that allows us to find joy in the discomfort that comes from the vulnerability of pushing your mind to its boundaries and beyond. For me, rigor, it really involves asking big questions, engaging deeply with concepts, communicating ideas effectively between people, which we know we this is something that I help my students a lot with. They really struggle with this. You know, the pandemic had a huge impact on our ability to communicate and connect.

Jackie Shay [00:17:29]:

And so there’s rigor in that too. And being able to understand the natural world and also ourselves, like deepening our relationship with ourselves in a rigorous way. And enjoying the challenge of, like, finding that discomfort or finding that anxiety and facing it and moving through it. There is so much joy in that. There’s so much joy in human connection, self development that it just makes it feel so worthwhile. And I also wanna add just in the age of AI that we’re in right now, rigor has evolved even further in my mind because I mean, right? I mean, god are the days of perfectionism. There it’s pointless to be perfect now. When a bot can do a nearly perfect product, when you ask it to, like, do this prompt or think about this thing, it’s that’s that cannot be our goal anymore.

Jackie Shay [00:18:17]:

It’s no longer the goal. And so instead, we can imagine rigor as vigor in the pursuit of truth, in thinking about empathy, in developing our ability to embrace the messy, to find the value in the work again. So to me, finding that motivation to make the mistakes and appreciate the mistakes, the strength and the struggle, having the deeper dialogue and the disagreements with each other and moving through that, that is where all that juicy amazing stuff is that makes us human and helps us grow. So to me, that is what rigor is all about.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:18:57]:

Cognitive sciences will tell us to distinguish between two different types of difficulties, broadly speaking. There would be ones that you just described, the desirable ones, and how vital it is to be challenged to you you described it because they’re expanding our minds and our imagination. And that could that could there be any finer work, any any finer pursuit than that messy pursuit of truth? And yet, so often, particularly in STEM fields, what we inadvertently, I think, most of the time I don’t I don’t hear people doing this on purpose. I mean, actually, no. Maybe I do. I just don’t know how conscious they are of it. But setting up difficulties that are unrelated to the task, What are some things that come to mind for you in STEM that gets in the way of the kind of joy that’s the good hard stuff, but instead is just hard stuff that maybe we could actually look at how to make it easier so there was more freedom to the good kinds of hard.

Jackie Shay [00:20:05]:

Yeah. Bonnie, I think I’m I’m thinking I’m thinking of Kevin Gannon’s book on Radical Hope right now with the, you know, that distinction that he made of logistical rigor versus cognitive rigor. So, absolutely, what I was talking about was cognitive rigor. So when I think of logistical rigor, I think and especially in STEM, I I certainly think about memorization. And memorization being this, like, for some reason, we have decided it needs to be the foundation of, like, the basis of all that we know in in science. When in reality, when you get into your real world job, right, like, you look stuff up all the time. I certainly look stuff up all the time. Right? I’m not expected to know every name of every protein and every chemical composition and how that relates to each other and these reactions in this way.

Jackie Shay [00:20:54]:

And so to think that that needs to be the introductory standard for students versus like a more exploratory approach where we can get students to really connect science to their own personal lives. Because like I mentioned, I think we all are born to be scientists and we’re told we’re not and over time. And it can even be as something as simple as, you know, on on my I’m I I typically use Canvas, but any learning management system, like, when we think about how we present our course to our students and we think about structural logistics. Anytime we ask students to find something that is not clear, you are taking away a piece of their cognitive ability to be focusing on something else. So anytime we ask students, you need to figure it out. Right? This is something you just have to learn how to find for yourself. They are not focusing on what we’re really trying to learn, like the bigger outcomes, the more, like, cognitive things we want them to do. And so I also think of logistical rigor in the way that classes are just structured and how that they feel.

Jackie Shay [00:22:01]:

So content wise, thinking about memorization as being this core thing when it’s in reality not. And then logistical burnout, basically, for students who have to change every time they go to a different class. They have a totally different structure of that class that they have to adopt to and figure out. And it’s no wonder they miss assignments and forget this deadline or or whatever. Their schedules are completely different depending on which class they’re in, and not to mention, like, their jobs and their personal lives and everything else that goes on top of that. And so, like, even just a deadline, you know, I I recognize the importance of getting students to sort of manage their time and and develop those skills. But, again, in the real world, deadlines are not that common. They are often something you can clarify for yourself.

Jackie Shay [00:22:49]:

Like, I need this much time to get this done. Or, like, maybe there is a deadline, but you can request an extension. Right? It’s like they’re there as sort of these guideposts, but there’s they’re not really these hard and fast rules. And so why is it that we sort of make our students sit with all these walls and structures and sort of force them to think within these bounds when we in when that is not in reality what it’s like in the real world? And so that’s another way in which I think we kind of impose a logistical form of rigor that seems really unnecessary.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:23:21]:

I treasure my growing friendship and collaboration with Alexis Peirce Caudell. She actually we got connected through this podcast, and I was talking I had just said one single sentence about dichotomous thinking, and that was our first interaction where she was like, oh, you know, and and it ended up she came on the show to talk about dichotomous thinking. And pretty much, I think every single day, I think about that topic at this point. So I wanna just ask you to clarify something to that end because I think what you’re not saying if if I understand you and understand your work, what you’re not saying is that memorization is never helpful to us in our disciplines.

Jackie Shay [00:24:00]:

I’m certainly not saying that.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:24:01]:

Yeah. Yes.

Jackie Shay [00:24:02]:

I mean, there’s value in memorization, but for it to be the the sole focus is where I see the issue. Yeah.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:24:09]:

Cher, what does your mind go through when you think about when you wrestle? I hope we’re all wrestling with this question, by the way. You mentioned AI. I’m like, if we’re not on a pretty decent regular basis questioning this both as individuals and collectively in our our communities. I I don’t know. I don’t know what else we would be doing with our time, but but what what kinds of things questions come to mind for you when you’re trying to decide, should I set up some sort of thing that invites, requires, has the rigor that is around memorization? What what are some questions come to mind where you’re like, yeah. They don’t really need to have that memorized yet. What what comes to your mind?

Jackie Shay [00:24:52]:

So when I’m thinking about what I want my students to know in order to apply it to something or sort of do these higher cognitive skills, I think about wording the question at that level so that it’s subsumed into the question that you must know what this is, how this is defined, what this means in order to get here. And I do this with my intro students too. This isn’t just upper division students. I push them all the way as high as I can cognitively. Because, one, it excites them. When they see that that’s what they’re trying to do, when they’re trying to, like, apply this this concept or this definition to this, like, case study or this larger idea or even, like, pull it together with something that just happened in the news with their own story. They get so much more motivated to try to understand what it is. And then, you know and I tell them, you can look it up, like, you don’t you know, you can work with each other, share in class, like, talk with each other, look it up, use your resources, but, like, I want you to answer this question.

Jackie Shay [00:25:55]:

Right? And so I’m thinking of, like, a higher level higher level question. And to me, that that is rigor. Right? Being able, like, to talk with others, connect your ideas, apply basic concepts to higher levels of understanding. That’s what I what I want students to feel, like, by the end of the class, they have flexed that muscle so much that they’re just pumping that higher cognitive level by the time they get to their upper division classes. And And so that’s kind of what I mean there. So, of course, memorization has its value, but I find that the more you practice something at a higher level, the easier it is to remember the things that the pieces of that puzzle that are supposed to be there. And, like, the other thing I talk with my students about is just novice versus expert ways of thinking. You know, when we think about things at the novice level, there’s sort of these isolated concepts, like one is you know? And the and we can literally think about them in terms of one lecture to another lecture.

Jackie Shay [00:26:46]:

Right? One exam to another exam, Isolated systems. Interconnected knowledge is more meaningful and more valuable. It’s easier for students to remember things. It’s easier for students to trans transfer their knowledge from one scenario to another scenario when they have, like, a web of ideas that relate to each other. And I think we should push our students to that place earlier, not expect at the intro level. Like, okay. You’re gonna learn everything in isolation, and then you’ll figure out the interconnectedness later. No.

Jackie Shay [00:27:17]:

Let’s build the interconnected web as soon as possible so that they can keep adding to it, keep building those nodes of interconnectedness. And they love it. They so see the value in that and they buy into it and and they’re right there with me with that. And and and it they do feel challenged. They do feel it pushes them. But sometimes, it can also feel easier because once you have the ability to do that, you realize you can remember things easier. And all of a sudden, it can feel, like, in your body, it can feel less stressful Because now you have this framework that you have built in your own mind. It’s different for everybody.

Jackie Shay [00:27:52]:

Everyone’s framework is different. And we acknowledge that in the classroom, right? Your framework is gonna be different than your neighbors, gonna be different from me. I’ll present some, but you need to develop your own. And once they have their own framework and basis, then they have the agency to pull back on that whenever they want, and it becomes easier for them. Less anxiety and less, like, worrying about, like, oh god. I don’t remember what the definition specific wording of that is.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:28:16]:

That is such a powerful example and distinction. I’m gonna be reflecting on this for some time because I think what we do is we wanna have rigor. And I’m when I say we, I’m really talking about other people, but I’m trying to be friendly here. That that it their temptation is, yes, it needs to be rigorous. And the temptation is people need to know this stuff because, yes, I mean, in many cases, that is really gonna be important. The memorization will be important in some context across the thing. But what I see us doing so often is inadvertently the stress on rigor, differently defined than how you just defined it, forces people to stay in novice levels because it’s that transactional learning that’s being emphasized. Put the phone away.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:29:08]:

Don’t you dare ask, you know, chat GBT. And instead, by looking at that interconnected knowledge, the memorization is still important, but it comes so much naturally. That’s what I’m hearing you say.

Jackie Shay [00:29:21]:

Totally. It comes so much more naturally. I mean, we want to remember things. Right? Our brain naturally does that. But when we force it to do it with no basis or foundation for where those independent pieces of knowledge are supposed to go. They just get lost. I was just talking to a student about this who was who was, you know, frustrated that we’re sitting in a class where there’s prereqs to this class that they’re expected to know, and they’re sitting there being like, I just don’t remember any of it. And I’m like, it’s not your fault.

Jackie Shay [00:29:48]:

Don’t blame yourself. It’s okay. Like, we’ll get you what where you need to go. But I I wanna I really wanna touch on something you just said about transactional because I have been thinking so much about this lately, Bonni. So I’m so glad you said this. And, like, just that learning has become so transactional. And like, with AI, we have to stop with this model. We have to return to relational teaching like that used to be.

Jackie Shay [00:30:12]:

I have this amazing example from I was teaching a plant biology, upper division plant biology, biodiversity class last quarter, and I was talking about acacia trees. And in acacia trees, they have these sort of thorns that are little houses for ants that live inside of these thorns. And this is a symbiotic relationship that’s evolved over millions of years. And the ants come to the defense of the plant when the plant is getting eaten by a giraffe or whatever, and they will come and then start biting the animal as it’s eating the leaves. And so that is why over time, you know, allele frequencies over time and evolution have, like, allowed these thorns to emerge to create homes. And inside those homes is like little food pockets, Little, like, little sacks of protein rich food for the ants. So the plant not only gives the ants a house, it also provides dinner. And in return, it’s like, please defend my leaves.

Jackie Shay [00:31:05]:

Right? And it’s this beautiful relationship. And I could stand up there with my slides and, like, I can emote and I could be passionate and I could share all of that, but what was really amazing was I sort of went to the with went to the students. Right? And I I get off the my little stage, and I I go down into the audience with the students with the microphone. Someone raises their hand, and I go up to them. And they share this story about how they were in Costa Rica and how frustrated they were when because they had to watch out for the acacia trees when they were in Costa Rica because every time they would touch one, they would get attacked by ants. And they shared this really funny, really visceral story and the whole room laughed and it was so funny. Then after class, I asked the student, I was like, what do you remember about the acacia trees? And they’re like, oh, I remember that student’s story. I was like, exactly.

Jackie Shay [00:31:53]:

Right? It doesn’t matter, like, what I say up there. It be the the fact that a fellow student of yours had that experience, had that memory, and then pulled that into our lesson, now you remember that content so much more because we focus on the relational experience of doing this together and of elevating everyone’s stories in the room because everyone has these wonderful experiences that are totally relevant, but just go unheard quite often. And so whenever there’s an opportunity to pull that in, I know that students have just learned that concept so much better. And so I I love that you just said that because a lot of what I try to do is relational work, and I get a ton of push back. I get and I get push back from students too, who are like, I would rather you just stand there and talk to me about, you know, about plants. I don’t wanna have a relational experience. I’m like, okay. I get it.

Jackie Shay [00:32:43]:

That’s worked for you. But I can see the students who really need that and are seeing how valuable it is to their memory and to building those interconnected nodes of knowledge in their in their mind so that they don’t have to memorize the relationship between the ants and the acacia trees. They just know it because of the stories that were told in class.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:33:03]:

I’ve been so inspired by the work of people like Mike Wesch who really stress in their own lives a regular practice of learning things that are totally new to them. It’s also one of my favorite interview questions when someone’s applying to be a faculty member to say, what is something recently new that you’ve learned? I probably need to start saying that has nothing to do with your discipline because I don’t think that it’s we we need to be have beginner’s mind. And so recently for me, this is such a funny example for anybody who knows me because I am so not a sportsperson. Like, we we’re we’re kind of a weird family that way. Don’t usually know when the Super Bowl is. If we hear about it, then it’s like, hey. This would be a great time to go somewhere because no one’s gonna be there. You know? That kind of an idea.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:33:45]:

But recently, I have taken an interest in basketball, and it probably started for me having students who played on our basketball team. And I just find it pretty fascinating to watch people that I know do something that they do that well that’s in a completely different con I’m just I’m really fascinated. Like, how does that work? You know, that kinda thing. But rather than me I get by by the way, I get very still very confused when watching a basketball game. Very, very confused. It’s a lot of running. And it reminds me of, like, going to a a professional baseball game decades ago, and a guy was trying to teach me how to tell the different kinds of pitches. And so he’s like, did you get it? Did you get it? And I was, this is me.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:34:29]:

No. I’m I’m just trying to figure out how do they mow the lawn that way. How far does it take

Jackie Shay [00:34:35]:

for them to put the

Bonni Stachowiak [00:34:36]:

lawn there? But it’s a checkerboard. I mean, how does this work? Does it lift up and then go back down? So so, it’s kind of like that if you were to sit next to me during a basketball game. I get very confused by the fouls, like, how how do they decide if they just get the ball and then they throw it in or how like, how many shots they get to take. But now, like, okay. Here we go. Just wait for it. I’m moving from novice just to, like, maybe not as much of a novice because rather than just go and look up on my phone, what are all the different kinds of fouls that could happen? And what like, I’m just getting curious and and a little bit frustrated. I would call it a desirable difficulty because I don’t understand what just happened, and people are cheering or booing or but and and so I’m I my my brow gets very furrowed up because I want to understand this, and it’s frustrating.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:35:31]:

Like, every it seems like everybody else knows what just happened. I’d like to understand it. And now I’m getting so excited because I go, oh, he got to shoot three baskets, free throws, because he was standing outside of that line, whatever it’s called. You know what I mean? And that I mean, just that example of we have to be doing that.

Jackie Shay [00:35:55]:

Yes.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:35:55]:

We have to be doing that so that we can take that new to us or renewed to us knowledge about what it takes to learn and then be able to apply it to something that how much we know about it holds us back from being effective every single time we try to do it. We have to I mean, it just absolutely does. So it was so fun just to hear you think through that in your discipline and then be thinking about it also is justifying how much time we’re spending watching basketball too, so that helps because it’s so fun to be in community, learning with other people too. And it’s fun that our family is getting interested in it, and we’re having a blast.

Jackie Shay [00:36:34]:

You know? So fun. Amazing.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:36:36]:

So fun. I’m gonna put in the show notes a link to Mike Wesch’s video about, something in the title, like, how how what handstands and baby George have taught me. I might be talking about two different videos. Anyway, I’ll look it up, but his is definitely worth a click. He’s he just lives this out learning new things that way. Oh, that’s awesome. Yeah.

Jackie Shay [00:36:56]:

I’ll definitely check it out.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:36:57]:

Before we get to the recommendation segment, you’ve given us so much to think about, and thank you for that. My my mind is gonna be sparkling the whole rest of the day. But tell us a little bit practically, what what other elements should we be bringing into our teaching to be able to help be more effective in what we’re trying to do?

Jackie Shay [00:37:18]:

Absolutely. And I love that you said sparkle because, like, you know, we’re really we’re trying to use this terminology, spark joy, spark it. Right? Like, it’s in you. You just have to ignite it. Yeah. And there’s all these really cool, practical, practical and tangible ways that we can do that in class. And so I’m gonna talk about a few of them. The first one is awe.

Jackie Shay [00:37:37]:

And sometimes I feel like this one’s a little easy for me because I am a biologist. And so and nature is awesome. And so it’s kind of really low hanging fruit to get students awe inspired by nature. I really loved Dacher Keltner’s book on the science of awe and really understanding that and learned about awe walks through his work. And so I actually assign my students every it doesn’t matter what class I’m teaching. I assign them to go on a walk. And I have a meditation practice that I have them do at the start of that. They’re not supposed to use their phones.

Jackie Shay [00:38:12]:

And I ask them these guiding questions to think about while they’re on their Ah Walk, and then I ask them to do reflections afterwards. And so sometimes it’s like, Just go on a walk outside. It could be around your neighborhood or you could go on a hike or wherever you feel safe to do so. And just really, like, try to, like, try to look at all of the different diversity around you. Like, look at, like, the flowers, look at the trees, look at the insects and the birds. Like, what do you see when you slow down and you take a second to observe your environment? And I had my students, last quarter. I actually asked them to also reflect on on that. How does slowing down, taking a breath, disconnecting from your device, how does it impact your ability to improve your observational skills and observational skills being in a very, very valuable skill, especially in in the sciences, natural sciences? And they told me, you know, in their reflections, they were like, I never saw any of this stuff.

Jackie Shay [00:39:18]:

I have walked this path every day for years. And and like many students would say, this is my running trail or this is my path to to school or class. And they were like, I have I have been on this trail 100 times. I have never seen the things that I saw when I consciously slowed down and appreciated my landscape, my environment and the other living things around me. And it just showed me, like, wow, we really need to invite our students to do that more in the context of what we’re talking about. I mean, and this doesn’t have to just apply to biology. I mean, it can apply to so many different things to just ask them to slow down, breathe, and, like, look around. And what do you see? What what do you see that you maybe didn’t see before? I also, really try to find lots of opportunities to build intrinsic curiosity because, like I said, it’s there, but it’s just been ignored or we have some sort of amnesia about the fact that we are quite curious beings.

Jackie Shay [00:40:19]:

And so I I’ve been really loving Daniel Pink’s work on self directed learning and intrinsic motivation and Pink Time. And so I’ve been using Pink Time regularly. I do it at least once once a class where I cancel class, and I tell students to do whatever they want. It just has to be within the context of the class. And then I asked them, like, go into whatever you’re doing with, like, a goal, and then you grade yourself. How did you do? And I teach them a little bit about I give them some information about self direct self directed learning. I teach them a little bit about student agency, why this helps promote their curiosity. And the students found so they did such cool things when I let them do things I would never imagine, and they’re totally connecting it to course content.

Jackie Shay [00:41:05]:

But they’re doing it in their own way. They’re really taking their learning into their own hands. And I don’t just do this with upper division students. I do it with lower division students as well because I want them to develop this muscle of being able to regulate your own learning in your own pace in your own way. I had one student who we played, and I love this game, Animal Crossing. I don’t know if you know this game, Animal Crossing, but she went into her game and she realized, like, her gardens were not very biodiverse. And so she went in and added more diversity into all of her gardens. And then she reflected on how much more beautiful the landscape became when she really started to think about diversity in the cons in the context of her world building.

Jackie Shay [00:41:45]:

And I was like, Wow. Like, what a way to have the concept of diversity sink into your own life. I had other students, like, drawing and really connecting through art and just having that opportunity and, like, reflecting and saying, I have not sat down and drawn in years, and I love drawing, and it makes me so happy. And just having a chance to do that, You know, thank you so much for doing that. And other students, you know, they watch YouTube videos or they connected with other things, and it was awesome to just see how they did it on their own. I also really talk a lot about mindfulness in class. And so kind of in the same in the same line of of slowing down and asking students to breathe, I do something that I learned from a faculty member at UC Merced, Fred Wolf, who uses this black slide in their lectures. It’s a mindful, I call it a wellness slide.

Jackie Shay [00:42:33]:

And I tell students for two minutes, you can do whatever you want. You can close your eyes. You can get up and stretch. You can go to the bathroom. You could check your phone. Like, maybe your phone’s been blowing up and you just need a second to step outside a classroom and see what’s going on. You can do whatever you want. And so I make myself put this slide in every single lecture.

Jackie Shay [00:42:50]:

And sometimes I get to it and I have that urge like, oh, I just need to keep going. But I tell myself, no. I made a rule. When the black slide shows up, I have to pause. I have to stop. And I do it for myself too. I have to take a sip of water. I connect with some of the students in the class about noncontent related things.

Jackie Shay [00:43:07]:

And every every every class, the students in their evaluations are like, wow. Like, just having that two minutes made such a huge difference for me because afterwards, I was able to show up as if I had just arrived even though it’s a seventy five minute class or a fifteen minute class or whatever it is. And I and so, like, kind of building in mindfulness into the class and thinking about that can be so valuable. And then for growth mindset, I do this in so many different ways, and I start with community norms with my class. And I’m gonna I’m sort of gonna tie this into my recommendation, Bonni. But, like, community norms that I sort of co develop with students to sort of have them develop language, because I could tell them all day why this stuff is important. But if they don’t come up with their own language about why it’s important for them, it’s not gonna connect with them as much. And so I I loved what my students did this this quarter that I’m in right now.

Jackie Shay [00:43:57]:

They added this this community norm that I just thought was so cool. And they said, you know, empower learning as an, like, recognize learning as an act of bravery. And I just thought that was so cool that they came up with that. They recognize that learning is hard. Learning can be vulnerable and learning can be a space where there’s like a lot of fear. And so they said, like, yes, that all is true. Let’s be brave together in that space and encourage each other. And I just like was like, sobbing reading it because I was like, oh my gosh.

Jackie Shay [00:44:27]:

They they are they that’s their words, not mine. Right? They did that. And so and on the first day of class, I always talk about my own story of failure. They love this. You know, I failed OCA. I failed stats twice, and I still got my master’s and PhD in biology. And and so it’s like normalizing failure as part of the learning process and getting them past that feeling that they have to be perfect all the time. And I also share a little video on neuroplasticity and just tell them, like, you know, you have the choice to, like, change your mindset whenever you want.

Jackie Shay [00:44:59]:

It’s totally up to you. You can change your brain chemistry just over the course of this class by just choosing to, like, do something new and building new habits.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:45:08]:

Well, this is the time in the show where we each get to share our recommendations. And since you brought up Dacher Keltner, I just wanted to mention that Dave Stachowiak, my husband, has the coaching for leaders episode two fifty four, and he invited him to speak about using power for good and not evil. And while not directly related to what Jackie shared, I do find it related to just the whole idea of imposter syndrome and recognizing the power that we have within us in some ways that we don’t often think about power, so I would suggest that. And then I’m excited about Jackie’s recommendation, so I’m gonna make mine short. I I just wanna say that as Jackie was sharing about this exercise she has students do of being aware of, you know, and and becoming better observers, something that’s really important to me is to be observing what’s happening inside my own body. And I find that I need more stretches. And I’ve shared many times and will continue to share, you know, tools and approaches I’m finding. So this one’s really simple.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:46:12]:

It’s a tennis ball massage. So all you need is a tennis ball and a wall and, or perhaps the floor, and and you’ll be in good shape. So I’m gonna now pass it over to Jackie for whatever she would like to recommend.

Jackie Shay [00:46:24]:

Oh, I’m totally doing that tennis ball thing. That is happening. My recommendation is a music artist that I’ve been listening to religiously lately that I hope some of you will enjoy. I like electronic dance music, and so I’ve really been diving in hard with an artist named Tinzo. They’re a queer Filipino American, and their music is rooted in LGBTQIA experiences with some inspiration from, like, indie dance, house, and soul. And they unapologetically really think about joy and inclusivity on the dance floor and their brother, Jojo, they’ve created this group called the radio book club. And I love it because they have community norms for the dance floor. And they’ve called it the librarian’s manifesto to go with the radio book club.

Jackie Shay [00:47:17]:

And so I’m gonna read you their community norms because when you look at their YouTube videos, you see the people and they all have this common understanding of how they are going to be in that space. And it allows for more joy to occur because everybody’s on the same page. So here’s their community norms. One, come for the music. Two, be open to unfamiliar music and sounds. Three, respect one another. Four, face each other instead of the DJ. I love that one because a lot of times when you see dance DJs, everyone’s staring at the DJ and not actually engaging with each other.

Jackie Shay [00:47:55]:

Five, no phones allowed on the dance floor. Six, dress to express yourself. And seven, dance your heart out. I just love it.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:48:04]:

I’m now trying to apply these to, like, a class you would teach. Fun, wouldn’t it? Take a set of norms and try them on and change them from there. How fun is that? Oh, thank you so much. Well, thank you for the chapter that you’ve written for this wonderful book. Thank you for today’s conversation. I’m gonna be thinking about it for a long time to come, and thank you for you. Thank you for all that you have invested in students and now in expanding the teaching and higher ed community’s imagination. Such a joy to get to talk to you today.

Jackie Shay [00:48:37]:

Thank you, Bonni. It was an absolute joy being here and getting a chance to talk with you. Thank you so much.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:48:44]:

Thanks once again to Jackie Shay for joining me for today’s episode of Teaching in Higher Ed. Today’s episode was produced by me, Bonni Stachowiak. It was edited by the ever talented Andrew Kroger. Podcast production support was provided by the amazing Sierra Priest. Thanks to each of you for listening. I encourage you, if you’ve not done so already, to sign up for the weekly update. You’ll get the most recent episodes, show notes, as well as other resources and goodies that don’t show up in those on their own. Head over to teachinginhighered.com/subscribe.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:49:23]:

Thank you for listening, and I’ll see you next time on Teaching in Higher Ed.

Teaching in Higher Ed transcripts are created using a combination of an automated transcription service and human beings. This text likely will not represent the precise, word-for-word conversation that was had. The accuracy of the transcripts will vary. The authoritative record of the Teaching in Higher Ed podcasts is contained in the audio file.