Bonni Stachowiak [00:00:00]:

Today on episode number 487 of the Teaching in Higher Ed podcast, Overcoming Imposter Anxiety with Ijama Woku. Welcome to this episode of Teaching in Higher Ed. I’m Bonni Stachowiak, and this is the space where we explore the art and science of being more effective at facilitating learning. We also share ways to improve our productivity approaches so we can have more peace in our lives and be even more present for our students. I’m thrilled today to be welcoming Ijeoma Nwaogu, a well regarded speaker, author and coach who is deeply passionate and committed to the personal growth, well-being, and progression of people With a vision of a world where every person embraces their boundless potential, she’s on a mission to educate, motivate, Inspire and transform the lives of people from various walks of life so that they become better positioned for great success. With over 16 years of experience in higher education, Nwaogu has made significant contributions as an educator and administrator. She was a director of the Multicultural Center at Rice University in Houston, where she fostered inclusivity and cultural understanding. And she served as an adjunct professor at the University of Houston, imparting valuable knowledge and guidance to aspiring professionals.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:01:45]:

Nwaogu’s academic journey includes a doctoral degree in counseling and a master’s degree in college student affairs administration, both earned from the University of Georgia. She laid the foundation for her educational pursuits with a bachelor’s degree in psychology and sociology from Georgia State University. Ijama was born in Lagos, Nigeria, and immigrated to the United dates at the age of 4. She resides in Houston, Texas with her husband, doctor Kinsley Nwaogu, MD and 3 children, Adana, Martin, and Princeton. Ijeoma enjoys Thai and Nigerian cuisines, salsa dancing and relaxing on a warm beach. Ijeoma Nwaogu, welcome to Teaching in Higher Ed.

Ijeoma Nwaogu [00:02:39]:

Hi. Such a pleasure to be here with you, Bonni.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:02:41]:

I have been waiting for this conversation. I got to go to the replay of your book release party, and it has the best song on it. I played it the other Kitchen. I’m dancing around the kitchen. The song for people listening is called Joy Unspeakable by Voices of FIRE, in case you can’t tell from the name, it’s all about joy. So how about we start with what brings you joy?

Ijeoma Nwaogu [00:03:11]:

Wow. What brings me joy? Oh, man. Lots of things bring me joy, but the thing that comes to mind is Just seeing talent in people. Just seeing people’s talent. I really love observing people and seeing what they’re good at, their strengths, and how they are just awesome and specifically created, like, to do that particular thing. I just came from Beyonce’s concert last weekend, And I’m like, man, this woman was designed to do exactly this because the step the stamina, the singing ability, all of it, I was just in awe At how we are all, like, specifically designed to do particular things in our lives, and we all have different strengths. So I I’m just really big on that and observing people’s talents, and that brings me a lot of joy.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:03:57]:

And isn’t that great when you can just see it? You see just the The really because I can’t sing. No.

Ijeoma Nwaogu [00:04:04]:

I cannot sing, so I appreciate a good singer.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:04:07]:

We have talked about so many different topics On this podcast, it’s really been a delight just to think about all the places that we’ve gone. But with all the people that I have shared my excitement about talking to you Today, every single person is like, oh, wait. You gotta tell me, when is the book coming? When when is that episode going to air? What is it about what we we often call imposter syndrome that resonates in such a visceral way with so many people?

Ijeoma Nwaogu [00:04:39]:

Absolutely. Because it’s something that most of us will encounter at some point in our lives. Right? Depending on the situations we’re in, oftentimes, We enter new and challenging situations as life progresses. So once we enter those spaces, we start to wonder, are we enough? Are we capable of handling this? Are we deserving of this sort of role? We start to question ourselves, and that feeling is really uncomfortable. So That’s something folks are really curious about figuring out how to get a good grip on and how to perhaps overcome it, surmount it, And move on with with the desires of their life. So it’s a common experience as a normal experience, but it’s one that can make you feel like you’re All alone in it. It you could feel like you’re the problem or no one else is dealing with this because you see them and they’re smiling or they appear confident, but You don’t really know what’s going on in them, you know, in their minds and how a lot of people do grapple with this Even if they have a smile on their face, even if they appear confident. So, yeah, it’s an uncomfortable experience that people are looking to Figure out how to mitigate.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:05:48]:

Some of what I’m hearing and what you shared, it I’m getting a sense of self reinforcing and not in a good way. So that the circle of not good enough, not deserving, wait, other people have this figured out. Could you talk about somewhat of a cycle there or ways in which we may have this this talk that we give to ourselves that’s not gonna be particularly helpful to release us from it.

Ijeoma Nwaogu [00:06:14]:

Sure. That self reinforcement piece comes from past lived experiences and how we’ve internalized a lot of messages is from media about who we are, our identities, and our upbringing. Some cultural beliefs that shape who we are, and Some of those cultural beliefs can be self limiting. You know, ideas about maybe what a woman ought to do and how she should be and What a man is supposed to do or what someone coming from this sort of family is supposed to be. Right? And so many ideas we internalize. It becomes like part of our mindset. It’s so embedded into our psyche that we just start functioning in those ways. And when we are in those new and challenging situations, We remember those messages that we’ve internalized, and we continue that cycle over and over.

Ijeoma Nwaogu [00:07:03]:

So it does take a lot of intentionality and deliberate practice to Sit down with yourself and say, why do I always shrink when I am in this particular situation? Why do I have this Horrible feeling within me that I can’t do it, that I’m not enough. If we take time to sit down, reflect on our past, and say, this is where it comes from, And do the work to dispel those ideas and to realize who you truly are, that you are capable, that you are worthy, we can then be very aware That these are false beliefs. These are the truths about myself, and I choose to move forward with the truth about who I am. So I think we have to be really deliberate about the mind work. Just doing the personal work to get to where we wanna be.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:07:48]:

One thing I know you want to caution us from though is the idea that it is our all our fault and it all of the blame lies on us. So Would you speak now about the role that these oppressive environments play and and build upon those scripts that you’re describing around our sense of self worth?

Ijeoma Nwaogu [00:08:09]:

Sure. I remember I write about this in my book, chapter 4, and I opened it with a story from Or the scene from Good Will Hunting. Do you remember that movie?

Bonni Stachowiak [00:08:19]:

Oh, yes.

Ijeoma Nwaogu [00:08:20]:

Where, you know, Sean I think his name was Sean. The the young man, he had a breakthrough with his psychologist, and his psychologist was telling him over and over, it’s not your fault. It’s not your fault. It’s not your fault. And he finally was able to embrace that, release his pain, and move forward with, like, his life in a positive way. So the character, the young the young man who was seeing the psychologist had a lot of negative feelings Within him about, like, how he just navigated life, and a lot of the pain he had was from childhood abuse. So he internalized a lot. Perhaps he thought that the abuse was his fault, and it took, you know, a supportive figure to help him move past that by reminding him that it is not his fault.

Ijeoma Nwaogu [00:09:06]:

And I remember when I was in graduate school, 22 years old, grad school, 2 years in that program, in those 3 hour long classes, And thinking that I was an imposter in that space and thinking that I was the problem without recognizing how my environment played a huge role in the way I navigated that space. Right? So we end up thinking that we are the problem. We need to fix it Without factoring in the role of perhaps your oppressive past or the environment that you’re currently in. And one word that I use in the book is called imposterize. When you are in a space and others are imposterizing you or trying to make you feel inferior or gaslighting you, And you may very well come into that space feeling confident, but then when people are imposterizing you and making you feel like you’re not supposed to be there, then you start to question yourself. Then you start to wonder, oh my gosh, do I belong here? So those external forces do play a significant role, and I want folks to be mindful of Your past history and how, you know, a lot of impositions that happened to you, lot of things that were imposed upon you We’re not your fault, and they shape your mindset. But it’s up to us to do to do the work of dismantling those false beliefs and to also recognize, like, in the workplace place or in any other space that you’re in that may not be an that may not be healthy and that is not empowering to you, but instead it’s Oppressive. We have to be mindful of that as well because knowing that it’s not your fault, there is a liberating factor to that to know that there’s nothing wrong with you, that you are Supposed to be there with your unique qualities and everything that you bring, and holding on to that versus the negative messages that you’re getting.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:10:53]:

As you’re talking, it fills me with hope, and and yet it can be so so difficult to break out of those cycles and those scripts. How does community then play a role in helping us be able to identify and and begin to break down and and create new scripts that are more helpful to us?

Ijeoma Nwaogu [00:11:13]:

For sure. It’s it’s it’s so valuable to be around diverse folks, folks who are different from you, but it’s so important to also be in with like minded folks, folks who look like you, folks who have similar beliefs because that can be reinforcing of Reinforcing of who you are and to let you know that you are enough. Like, when you are in a community, you can feel belonging. And as social beings, we definitely desire belonging. And being in a community helps with that to remind you that you belong, to remind you that you are accepted just as you are, to have people to encourage you, support you, and provide you with resources that you probably wouldn’t have if You were kind of isolated and trying to figure things out on your own. So when you know that people are supportive of you, it’s empowering, and it makes you want to Pursue your life goals, right, even more.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:12:08]:

We’ve had in the show in the past Peter Felton and his researcher Heidi Weston. And one of the things they contrasted in that episode a a time or two ago, they were talking about that oftentimes in higher education and another educational context, we use the word belonging. Yeah. But what that really translates to is assimilation. And so I love the way that you’ve described it here, belonging in this sense. And this example you gave us isn’t with people that are different than you, that that you then have that pressure to to adopt to their cultural or their gender norms. And instead the by the way, their research, focuses then instead on mattering. That maybe we maybe we could we could challenge the what we try to do with that word or that idea belonging.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:12:54]:

And maybe what in in those more diverse groups that you were describing, then maybe mattering could be what we focus on that people’s people matter as opposed to belong. But but, yeah, there’s this contrast that it can be one of those things that can’t just be relaxing in a way, in a healthy because when then you can just let it all Go. We don’t have to pretend that these things don’t exist, and someone’s really gonna understand when you describe something that happened. You talked about gaslighting, and that’s certainly A word that boy oh boy just sounds really, really familiar to me in in some context that I’m in. But then somebody who can understand go, oh, when so What’s going on? And and just you need those spaces because our mind can play tricks on us. Right? They can play tricks where we start to go back to those old scripts. So what’s a way that community has really been helpful to you in in identifying some of the things for yourself in certain context where you struggled with some of this, or or has that been a struggle for you ever?

Ijeoma Nwaogu [00:13:54]:

Oh, for sure. As an entrepreneur, many things. And one of the hats I have is To be an entrepreneur. So lots of imposter syndrome when it comes to stepping outside of your comfort zone to, establish certain programs or projects for your business. So I am part of a mastermind, A group full of entrepreneurial women who are striving to have thriving businesses. So in that space, we help each other a lot with mindset, With reminding each other of who we are and what we’re capable of and to help dispel some of those self limiting beliefs that we try to carry with us and think that we’re Operating in a quote unquote realistic manner when we’re actually just playing small. That’s all that is. So we need those constant reminders from Like minded folks, because sometimes of course, you’ve you’ve heard the cliche saying, we are our worst critics.

Ijeoma Nwaogu [00:14:48]:

We’re the ones Dealing with the internalized thoughts, but other people are not having those thoughts about my you know, yourself in those moments, so they’re able to move the cloud of doubt and Tell you the reality of the situation. Right? So we have our coach and we coach each other, and being in that space has really helped me move past Those doubts and fears that I have to do what it takes to have a thriving business. And I consider myself a very confident person. I know who I am. I believe at least I think I know who I am. But it’s so interesting how imposter anxiety will Still kind of creep up and show up in spaces, and it’ll give you this logic like, are you sure you wanna do that? Well, how about the money piece? Or how about this piece or will people like it? And it sounds logical, but then it’s really it comes from fear. It comes from a lot of fear. So Being able to identify that and choosing to do the opposite of what that fear is saying is a strategy that’s critical in moving past imposter anxiety.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:15:51]:

You talked about the money piece, and that’s exactly where my mind was going. People close to me that have been parts of groups like you’re describing. It comes up so much with people whether it’s if you started to do some speaking in a higher education context, but not at an academic conference, but one where you might be paid. All the different amounts where people might get paid. And I’ve loved on social media before where people have been really really transparent about that. Mhmm. So you can go I mean, Sometimes these figures might feel outrageous to you if you don’t if you do have that sense of I don’t really have much to offer here. But then to get that sense of community, what is the market paying for this sort of thing?

Bonni Stachowiak [00:16:31]:

But by the way, the market will also be happy to pay you nothing. And and then and then but to have those conversations that can be self reinforcing. And I also have found it helpful whether it’s job negotiations, money for speaking, or if you do have a business, some of our colleagues might do some sort of consulting or that kind of thing. To have someone who’s not you challenge you on how much you thought. Because it it it’s also weird when it’s you. If you’re selling a product that is something tangible that’s not you, that is one thing. But what you what you’re selling feels like Very, very attached to you and your sense of worth and your identity. Those can be such challenging, challenging, challenging things.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:17:12]:

You used the phrase playing small. Tell me more about playing small and what that looks like.

Ijeoma Nwaogu [00:17:18]:

Yeah. Playing small is is about, like I said before, Thinking that you’re being realistic and logical when really it’s just limiting yourself. You have the potential. You have the capacity to do bigger things. You even know what to do, but you try to play it safe to reduce the risk involved, to just, like, not have things Go the wrong way because of the fear of failure. And, we could go on and on. Like, fear fear of failure, I talk about that in the book as well, and I encourage readers to really embrace failure. Failure to me is success because failure is intel Intel to use for your next endeavor so that you’d know exactly what to do and you improve along the way.

Ijeoma Nwaogu [00:18:03]:

So for me, failure. I celebrate my failure Because it’s a stepping stone in the right direction. It’s not a stumbling block. So in me, like, kind of talking about fear of failure, I wanna go back to your original question. Can you please remind me?

Bonni Stachowiak [00:18:16]:

Oh, yeah. No. I was all getting into your fear of failure. I was so ready. I mean, it’s because that is ultimately we were talking about, oh, playing small. Playing small is at the beginning, but but, yeah, all these things we think we’re protecting ourselves, putting on this armor That ultimately, that fear of failure and what it what it limits. And that’s what that’s what you were talking about, going small.

Ijeoma Nwaogu [00:18:39]:

So that’s exactly it. It it’s driven by the fear of failure. You don’t wanna fail. You don’t wanna embarrass yourself. So you try to do what you know you’re capable of doing, but then you don’t tap into what you’re also capable of doing, that you’re capable of doing more. Right? So I think that’s a huge element of it.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:18:57]:

Some of what you’re you’ve really been talking about this entire time is the idea that you share about of self kindness, another part of of this that we can do. What are some examples that you’ve observed in your work of us when we’re really not being kind to ourselves.

Ijeoma Nwaogu [00:19:16]:

Yeah. And again, it’s not our fault because I think of perfectionism. We have a culture where we embrace perfectionism when we really shouldn’t. I mean, we should aim for excellence in what we do, And knowing that doing enough is 100%. Being good at something is 100%. Being great is good. Being excellent is is is Awesome. You could strive for that, but knowing when to say, okay.

Ijeoma Nwaogu [00:19:41]:

I cannot burn myself out. What I have is sufficient. Sufficiency is 100%, And rest assured in that and finding solace in knowing that you have done enough. Because in this life, we are so responsible for so many things, and we have to use our energy For so many other things, so know that you’ve produced something excellent. Be okay with that, and Move forward with what else you have to do. But with perfectionism, people tend to just keep going even after something is excellent. But with that Fear they’re they’re driven by a fear of, will they like this? Is this good enough? I gotta do more. And staying up Too late at night and worrying themselves, trying to perfect something that is already excellent.

Ijeoma Nwaogu [00:20:27]:

So I’m, you know, a huge advocate of self care and not Burning oneself out because I know what burnout feels like, and it’s really hard to come out of that. And when you’re dealing with imposter anxiety, you can drive yourself To burn yourself out because you’re trying to live up to perfectionistic expectations. So we have to be very mindful of that.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:20:46]:

We have on the the team that I work the most closely with, we we have to constantly be using this phrase. We sort of introduce the language of good enough. I’m I’m figuring out I’m discerning on this what is good enough because we you talked about at the beginning of our conversation about how Much joy it brings you when you see other people that are doing their thing with all of the goodness of why they were created in the 1st place To do those amazing things, that can be addicting and really, really healthy ways. And yet, as you say, we cannot bring that excellence To every aspect of our lives all of the time, we’re being pulled out in all these different directions. So I think introducing that for people because I do get very, very energized by excellence, and I work with people who I mean, that is just one of the most Best feelings that you can have, and yet we wanna we wanna be wise and discerning about where that gets put out into the world because it it can’t get out into the world. And, especially, I think, some context where you like to it’s enjoyable too to go, but we could do this. How about this? How oh, we could try this, and that that’s a good good thing. You can create excellence, and then at some point, you go, good enough?

Ijeoma Nwaogu [00:22:01]:

Yeah. It’s prioritizing. I mean, it might be able to get To be done down the line, but prioritizing what is important in that moment, right, versus, like, the emotional urgency you’re feeling at that moment. But Just to reiterate what we’ve talked about, I’m all about striving for excellence, but I am not about perfectionism. Right? So That’s what we have to really distinguish, the difference between the two.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:22:25]:

How what are some other ways you try to distinguish for yourself and for others that you work with as far as What how do I know if this is perfectionism and how do I know if this is that great pursuit of excellence? What are some questions we might ask ourselves? Or

Ijeoma Nwaogu [00:22:40]:

I I mean, one of the questions I would ask myself is, have I spent too much time doing this and to really be honest with myself? Have I spent too much time doing this? Do I feel like these feelings inside that feel heavy, feel uncomfortable? Do I feel even a little nauseousness? Do I, Like, feel this some this do I feel something at the, like, pit of my neck or what my throat, I mean. Like, what do you feel? Pay attention to how you feel inside, because those feelings will tell you what’s really going on. And like I mentioned before, just Are you you have to ask yourself, am I operating in fear? Like, am I being guided by fearful thoughts of being exposed as a fraud? Right. If that’s if that’s the case, then we have to take a pause and remember, like, what we’re doing, who we are, all those things. Like, just take a pause And remember what it means to be good enough, that good is complete. And you don’t have to, like, worry about Insignificant details of something you’re working on when no one else is gonna even notice it. You have to ask yourself, will people even notice this thing or, Like, is it that serious? And one thing I really talk about a lot is relying more on your presence versus your performance. And to me, presence is far more important than someone’s performance.

Ijeoma Nwaogu [00:24:01]:

Because presence to me, when someone is present in a moment, They are curious, and they are actively listening. They are showing interest. They are participating. And to me, that’s someone who has a growth mindset. And you don’t have to carry with you the expectations of trying to do something perfectly and all that. You’re just coming as you are, being a sponge and absorbing the information that’s coming at you and taking in Your surroundings and being an active participant. So I want people to depend more on their presence because that’s more powerful, a lot of times than You showing up in front of a group and saying all the right words and having the right poise and clicking the button at the right time, like, All of that is cute and all that, but allow yourself to be more authentic in the space by leveraging your presence. I think that can go a long way.

Ijeoma Nwaogu [00:25:00]:

I remember hiring a staff of people and they were in a leadership class, and they were all trying to impress me by Using these cool words and raising their hands often so that I would hire them, but there was 1 student in particular who didn’t say anything in class. But I can tell that she was super curious and looking around and taking notes and nodding when her classmates would speak, and just her presence was what made her stand out to me, and that was the 1st person I hired because of her presence. Told me that she’s someone who is curious, willing to learn, Someone who would be appreciative of their team, all of that. Those were the messages I was getting just from her disposition. So it’s really important to know when that’s happened to your presence. So when you’re feeling all of that doubt and you have the pressure you feel the pressure to perform, Say, hey. Okay. I have power through my presence.

Ijeoma Nwaogu [00:25:55]:

Let me embrace that and just allow myself to be in a space because That is more than enough. That’s actually what will allow people to feel curious about you or feel comfortable around you is your presence. So let’s leverage it.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:26:09]:

One of our kids was practicing a presentation that they’re giving today at school, and I wish I would have had these words last night because I was seeing that. I mean, they’re not that old, And those messages start to get in pretty early about the performance versus the presence. And they were getting prepared to tell stories about their grandparents in World War 2 and some really powerful experiences and scary things about the holocaust. And I mean, like, this family history that is is very very near and dear to this this child’s life, and yet they’re making sure they hit every bullet point. Go ahead. It’s not the bullet points. You know these stories.

Ijeoma Nwaogu [00:26:51]:

And, you know, just with you talking about them, It makes me so curious to know, like, the personal connection they have, the emotional connection they have about the story versus just Having all the points together. As you’re talking, that’s what’s making me curious. Mhmm. I wanna know how they personally feel about all of that, and they can achieve that through their presence. Yeah. That’s just that’s just what I’m thinking about.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:27:15]:

Yeah. Those tension and the nerves, they come they come so early. They come so early about what wisdom you’re sharing with us, the the presence. And that I mean, you can tell when someone’s all about the performance. It shows.

Ijeoma Nwaogu [00:27:27]:

It shows.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:27:28]:

Lack of vulnerability and a lack of authenticity, and people sense that they know that.

Ijeoma Nwaogu [00:27:33]:

I’m curious to know if you have experienced someone like, who comes to mind for you? What Situation where you win when you witness someone who was really in their presence and that was noticeable. Do you remember anything like that? Any situation where you’ve observed that?

Bonni Stachowiak [00:27:49]:

Well, it’s very much what you’re saying, we’re the quietest person in the room. And when the quietest person in the room, they typically will ask A question, and it’s a question that changes the entire conversation. Wow. Because they’ve been able to focus more on what is being said and discerning that without feeling like it needs to become a performance. And that I mean, that’s that’s where I see it the most where I go. It’s when when someone asks a question, and especially if that question came out of long periods of silence and listening. A lot of times we can get in the habit of, oh, I’ve got my thing I wanna say, but that person just said their thing, and that person said their thing, and that person said their thing, and trying to fit are thoughts and ideas. Not that they’re not valid.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:28:36]:

I do this too, by the way, in case anyone’s wondering. I had something I wanted to say, and, you know, you’re A very energized group. It is fun to be around that. But you asked the question, where do I feel that the most? And it’s in a room like that where Our thoughts are a little bit jumbled. We’re we’re because we’re we are energized, not we’re bad people or whatever, but then when that one person who’s Not said anything the whole time, and they ask a question, we all go, oh,

Ijeoma Nwaogu [00:29:03]:

okay. Yummy. And look at that strength we’re seeing, someone who’s able to Sit and observe and listen, and there is such value in that. Mhmm. And one thing, like, I think about with you talking, I think about introvert, People who are more on the introverted side of the spectrum and then folks who are who feel that they are more extroverted and how our society rewards extroversion, like Class participation. Speak up. You know? We reward that. So a lot of folks who identify as introverts may feel like they’re not enough.

Ijeoma Nwaogu [00:29:34]:

Right? When they actually have a strength within them, which is listening and being able to ask those powerful questions because of their listening power. Right? So imposter anxiety gets us all. And definitely, we’ll have Folks who identify as introverts is feeling like, am I enough? Am I even contributing in valuable ways as other people are?

Bonni Stachowiak [00:29:56]:

So yeah. My final question before we get to the recommendations is a hard one just because you’ve talked so much about How hard we can be ours on ourselves and some of these scripts that we’ve got going and the self reinforcing and when maybe when we haven’t found that community yet. I’m still gonna ask it anyway, though. It’s not bubble baths. It’s not cute journals, although those things are lovely, that are gonna really make the mark. What’s a small step that we could take that actually might be a fulcrum to greater change?

Ijeoma Nwaogu [00:30:27]:

Sure. I would say, like, the moment you are feeling that self doubt or that fear of failure, Treat it as a sign of success. Treat it as a sign of success because that indicates That you are about about to embark on something new, something challenging, that you may be in a space where you’re preparing to stretch yourself And that leads to growth. So those feelings let you know that you’re about to step out of your comfort zone. So lean into that. It is a sign of success. So that’s one piece of information that I would leave to listeners is When you have those feelings, treat it as a sign of your

Bonni Stachowiak [00:31:10]:

success. Well, now you’re making me wanna ask 1 more question.

Ijeoma Nwaogu [00:31:14]:

All good. Let’s do it.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:31:15]:

How much do you think it’s helpful to share those feelings with others? And at what point does it become not a helpful Full thing. How do you discern between? It might be helpful just to mention the that this is feeling particularly challenging. Or are there ways that that then invites The people or persons we’re sharing with to maybe continue the patterns even if they don’t recognize that they’re doing it.

Ijeoma Nwaogu [00:31:39]:

Okay. So your fur the first part of your question was

Bonni Stachowiak [00:31:42]:

So I’m feeling impostor syndrome, you know, and I’m feeling stretched. I’m preparing, but I’m with another person or persons. Yes. When do we say, oh, I’m really feeling and when do we go, no. We’re gonna push through. We’re gonna push through, and we’re just gonna keep that to ourselves. Is there a way that you sort of discern that for yourself?

Ijeoma Nwaogu [00:32:00]:

All about revealing it to heal it. That’s my saying, like, reveal it to heal it, but it’s important to reveal it to the right person. Then reveal it to someone you trust, someone who makes you feel emotionally safe, and that’s like a trusted colleague, a trusted Trusted friend. It’s okay to tell them. I mean, they’re not every moment will allow you to pick up the phone and be like, hey. I’m feeling like this, or to knock on someone’s door and be like, hey. This is how I feel. Not every situation will allow for that, but if you feel like you’re constantly dealing with this, it may be that you’re constantly dealing with it.

Ijeoma Nwaogu [00:32:32]:

It may be that you’re not dealing with it. But if you find that you’re in a space and it allows for you to reach out to someone to say, hey, this is how I’m feeling. Please reveal it to heal it. That helps to heal because that person may have a word or two for you to really encourage you And help you move that negative cloud and see the reality of the moment. Right? So it’s always helpful to get that piece of support. And there was a 2nd part to your question. I wanna make sure I answer it. Well I think there was a 2nd part.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:33:02]:

Well, I mean, it was really overarching in terms of the the imposter syndrome when we say it. But you’re you’re what you just said, Rufila, to heal it, I heard you describe out of the context. So if I’m getting up to give the big presentation, if I’m in front of the board, if I am in a high stakes situation, I’m hearing you say, probably not. I mean, you didn’t say it, but do we need to always tell other people how we’re feeling, Or could we have that safe person, that safe space, and in those moments, we’re gonna fake it till we make it? I mean, I

Ijeoma Nwaogu [00:33:37]:

You know what? That is a good question.

Ijeoma Nwaogu [00:33:39]:

Yeah. I would love to have more dialogue on what people think about that. Yeah. I think if you feel compelled to do that, There is power in vulnerability. Mhmm. I know Brene Brown speaks a lot about the power of vulnerability and to speak and say, Yeah. I don’t know if you all feel the way I feel, but the nerves are real, like, to add, like, a comedic element to it, like, in front of people because you might normalize that experience for other People who also have to get up and say something to Yeah. To let them know that they’re not alone.

Ijeoma Nwaogu [00:34:09]:

So through your vulnerability, you can add Power to the situation and how you feel and how others feel and keep it moving. So that’s that’s a possibility. But sometimes, you know, you might be in a space where People aren’t that welcoming of your authentic self or don’t wanna hear how you feel or whatever. And so you might wanna be wary of those sort of situations because folks can use it against you somehow. And I know do you know jodi-ann burry? No. She she has a book coming out in maybe a a year or 2 called authentic. And one of her arguments is that, you know, the workplace will say, Be your authentic self. You know, all of this come just as you are.

Ijeoma Nwaogu [00:34:52]:

But if that space is not welcoming, like, of Who you really are, can you really be authentic in that space? So she really, asked that question and has us thinking through that As a factor. Right? It’s all good to be authentic, but you have to do it in the right space that will nurture that authenticity, that will appreciate That authenticity, and not every space is like that.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:35:13]:

What I loved about your example that you gave, if I were watching you, I would feel like just, like because it was quick. It was funny. It was authentic. But then, like you said, you used the phrase we’re moving on then to there’s a reason why you came, why I’m listening to you present. You know what I mean? So it’s not belaboring it. But what what I I heard you and your example give was an opportunity for people to find you so relatable. And because when we do that, when we do it well, I think you just invite people to Really love who you really are and love who they are too because it’s like, oh my gosh.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:35:49]:

I can so relate to that now. I’m imagining what it would be like if I’ve ever done something like She’s doing right now, and I’m watching her do. So it’s really what a great example that you gave us.

Ijeoma Nwaogu [00:35:58]:

Yeah. And now that I didn’t think about it when you asked, but As you were speaking, I remembered in my doctoral program, all of us were there. We were just uptight and ready to just speak eloquently because we thought we were supposed Speak like that. And one of the one of our outspoken classmates was like, look. I know we all feel like impostors right now, so we could just stop pretending, and everyone just started laughing. And I remember at that moment, we all just we let our guards down and we just were. We just Allowed ourselves to be authentic and trusting of each other. And I I just remember that moment, like, wow, he really called it out and released All of us from this tight grip of of posture anxiety in that

Bonni Stachowiak [00:36:39]:

space. Yeah. I sometimes admit at the start of a class these days That I’m I’ve started this term or a semester. You know, I’m feeling nervous. I always feel nervous when I because I wanna do a great job. I really care about you. We we just met each other, but I take this really seriously. And then so many times they feel nervous too just like the example you gave.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:36:56]:

So

Ijeoma Nwaogu [00:36:56]:

So you you feel you’re a professor. You feel nervous even at the beginning of a new class.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:37:02]:

Yeah. And I feel like nerves can really help us do really well. They can help us with the excellence that you’ve been talking about this whole time.

Ijeoma Nwaogu [00:37:08]:

No. You’re absolutely right.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:37:10]:

Yeah. I agree with that. If you feel that sense of, hey, that sense of whatever people call it, is it a calling? Is it joy? It what what is it? Then you’re ready for it. You’re you’ve prepared and you’re ready for it, but there is that go, okay. I have prepared. This feels Scary because these people are new, but yeah. Yeah. I think I think we all want that.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:37:30]:

We all want to be doing something that we were put on this planet to do and and find out what That is and do more of it and be challenged. So you talked about earlier about the failing. If we’re actually allowing ourselves to fail, what that looks like in our lives. Yeah.

Ijeoma Nwaogu [00:37:46]:

Yeah. Absolutely.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:37:47]:

Alright. Well, we better switch over to our recommendation segment because I know you’ve got something to recommend and I don’t wanna miss it. So I have 2 things I wanna recommend, and they are both songs. I mentioned the first one when we first started recording, and that is the song that was played on the start of your book release party, and it’s called Joy Unspeakable by Voices of Fire, and it’s featuring Pharrell Williams. Oh my goodness. That that will get you dancing. It is amazing. I love it.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:38:19]:

I did ask for permission that I Could share that? Because I didn’t know if that is what you would recommend.

Ijeoma Nwaogu [00:38:22]:

Oh, absolutely. Of course.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:38:25]:

And then the 2nd song is kind of the opposite of And then totally not the opposite of that. There’s a band I’ve recommended a song of theirs before, and they’re they do Such a nice job with their lyrics. So this is a song called Lawrence, the band sorry. The band is called Lawrence. Uh-huh. And the song is called, I’m confident that I’m insecure. And that is the line that just keeps going over and over and over.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:38:54]:

I’m Confident that I’m insecure. And I will warn listeners, this band, Lawrence, the one I recommended previously, there is some colorful language. So if you’ve got people around that are not going to appreciate A little bit of risque lyrics. There’s a it’s not throughout the entire song, but there’s a couple of of words that you may not wish your 5 year old to hear. But it is such a hoot. It’s so playful what they do with the lyrics. And for their songs, I tend to like the acoustic versions Even more than I like the ones that are really all polished for the studio, so I’m gonna recommend today the they call it the acoustic ish. The acoustic ish version, which I will link to of I’m confident that I’m insecure.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:39:43]:

Yes. And I get to pass it over to you now for whatever you would like to recommend to Ijama.

Ijeoma Nwaogu [00:39:48]:

Sure. Listen. I love that. I that’s the first thing I’m gonna do when we get off is go listen to this song. And so I don’t have a song to recommend, but I do have a person, and she has a book. The book is called Ask For More. Her name is Alexandra Carter. She is an outstanding Speaker, she is a professor at, I believe, Columbia University, and she talks about negotiating.

Ijeoma Nwaogu [00:40:14]:

And she really does a lot of mind shift Or provides a lot of mind shift insights that make so much sense, just mind blowing in how she teaches us how to negotiate in everything that You’re doing, especially salary increases, any deals you have going on, negotiate, negotiate, negotiate. And I agree with her because I I think we oftentimes, again, play small or think that we’re not worth the amount that can be offered. And I find that after learning that it’s important to negotiate, I started doing that in all of my dealings. Right? And I would always get more because I asked or more. So encouraging everyone not to settle. There’s more out there for you if you only ask. So if you’re not into reading, follow her on Instagram. She is outstanding outstanding, so that’s who I would recommend.

Ijeoma Nwaogu [00:41:06]:

And I would also recommend a TV series, Ted Lasso. Ted Lasso is an outstanding series, and there Are a couple of scenes where they talk about, like, power posing and how you do things with your body to expand your body, Make your eyes wide, open your mouth, even stick out your tongue, spread your arms out. Like, just take up as much space as you can Because that can help you present in a more confident way. Like, your body tells your mind what to do. Like, You’re expanding yourself. You’re big, so go out there and be big. Right? So I love those illustrations that they show us on that TV series. Sorry if I’m spoiling it for anyone.

Ijeoma Nwaogu [00:41:51]:

I apologize. But just wanted to tell you the reason why I I appreciate that show because it really illustrates what that Taking up space looks like.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:42:00]:

I’m totally remembering. I’m having flashbacks to the scenes that you’re talking about or at least yeah. I can remember. Do you remember the scene about getting curious, and they’re playing darts, and what happens when we’re not curious. I’m not gonna give it away for listeners in case they haven’t seen that one. I’m gonna send it to you because It is one of those that I just watch over and over again. It’s what happens when we don’t get curious. And I’ll put it in the show notes.

Ijeoma Nwaogu [00:42:23]:

Oh, you watch the series over and over or that scene over and over?

Bonni Stachowiak [00:42:28]:

Oh, the scene over and over again. And it’s on YouTube.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:42:31]:

Oh, no. I’m sending it to you.

Ijeoma Nwaogu [00:42:34]:

Yes, please. I love that dark scene, by the way, but I don’t remember the part about curiosity. So I’d I’d like to see.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:42:40]:

Yeah. Yeah. It’s it’s essentially he he has He has intentionally tied one of his hands behind his back without the other person knowing because the other person didn’t ask enough questions And didn’t get curious enough about his life, so then when he reveals that he has been intentionally weakening his showmanship as a dartsman, then it’s oh, it’s so fun to see.

Ijeoma Nwaogu [00:43:02]:

Mhmm. It is. I love it. The messages in that show are just outstanding.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:43:07]:

You’ll be listening to the song, and I’ll be sending you the clip so you can do the song, and then you can do the clip. And we can all go back and revisit the, Ted Lasso scenes too. I’ll put a few in the show notes. So if I can find the power posing, I bet I probably can find the power posing. Yeah. A couple of them for people to watch, yeah, and revisit. So What an absolute joy it has been to get to know you. Speaking of following you on Instagram, you are absolutely need to be follow If you want as soon as I saw I don’t remember how I came across your account.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:43:34]:

I think it was somebody

Ijeoma Nwaogu [00:43:36]:

I messaged you because of Someone we know, a mutual person.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:43:39]:

I remember messaging you first and being all nervous about it and going. My message is any way you would possibly ever come on and you’re like, I know who you are. Yes. But I do think we have something in common.

Ijeoma Nwaogu [00:43:49]:

You and your husband do outstanding podcasts. So I’m so happy to be here with you.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:43:54]:

Oh, well, I’ve been happy to have you and I’m, So looking forward to people getting the book in their hands and to people being able to listen to the episode. Thank you so much for today.

Ijeoma Nwaogu [00:44:03]:

Thank you so much, Bonni.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:44:07]:

Thanks once again to Ijama Wogu for today’s interview, thanks to all of you for listening. Today’s episode was produced by me, Bonni Stachowiak. It was edited by the ever talented Andrew Kroeger. Podcast production support was provided by the amazing Sierra Priest. And if you’ve yet to sign up for the weekly emails from Teaching in Higher Ed, Head on over to teachinginhighered.comsubscribe. You’ll receive the most recent So it’s show notes as well as some other goodies and recommendations that don’t show up on the main episode. Thanks so much for listening, and I’ll See you next time on Teaching in Higher

Teaching in Higher Ed transcripts are created using a combination of an automated transcription service and human beings. This text likely will not represent the precise, word-for-word conversation that was had. The accuracy of the transcripts will vary. The authoritative record of the Teaching in Higher Ed podcasts is contained in the audio file.