Bonni Stachowiak [00:00:00]:

Today on episode number 541 of the Teaching in Higher Ed podcast, love, wisdom, and human flourishing in education with Jeff Hittenberger.Production Credit: Produced by Innovate Learning, Maximizing Human Potential.Welcome to this episode of Teaching in Higher Ed. I’m Bonni Stachowiak, and this is the space where we explore the art and science of being more effective at facilitating learning. We also share ways to improve our productivity approaches, so we can have more peace in our lives and be even more present for our students.I’m edified to be welcoming back to the show, my friend and colleague, doctor Jeff Hittenberger. He serves as the dean of the School of Education at Vanguard University, and previously, he served as chief academic officer at the Orange County Department of Education and provost vice president for academic affairs at Vanguard University. Dr. Hittenberger earned a doctorate from the University of Southern California, studied in Morocco on a rotary ambassador scholarship, and has worked on education projects and done research, teaching, or consulting in Cameroon, Mali, Togo, South Africa, Israel, and Haiti.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:01:34]:

Jeff Hittenberger, welcome back to Teaching in Higher Ed.

Jeff Hittenberger [00:01:38]:

Bonni, it’s so great to be with you.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:01:40]:

You have held so many different teaching oriented and leadership roles throughout your career, and I’ve been fortunate to be woven into, I don’t even know how many years it is now, 15 or 20 years?

Jeff Hittenberger [00:01:53]:

Yeah. At least.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:01:54]:

Off and on. Yeah. And when I think about people that are wise and I even I think maybe a more precise descriptor for me and what I really admire about you is discerning, which I imagine is probably an offshoot of of wisdom. Discerning, you are one of the first people that pops into my head. And candidly, sometimes it’s when I fail at something, I go, oh, what would Jeff have done? That kind of a thing. So to be fair to me, who sometimes feels so limited in this area, I’m gonna invite you. Could you tell us about a time when you really felt like you lacked the kind of wisdom that maybe you’re able to glean more easily today? I don’t know. Or maybe it’s even something you still struggle with today.

Jeff Hittenberger [00:02:36]:

Well, it’s it’s so kind of you to say that, Bonni, and I so value our relationship and our work together. And, you know, this journey has been difficult in so many ways. It is for all of us. The the journey toward trying to be discerning, to try to act wisely. I think about our early years of my earliest marriage, Christine and I have been married for 34 years, and there was not a shred of wisdom in me when we got married. And I think it’s in our closest relationships that our our weaknesses are probably most often revealed. And because we’re not as likely to be on top of our emotions, and and it’s very easy in a in a very close relationship to have our anger or our fear or insecurity be start driving the bus. And I think especially in our early years of marriage, there were so many times where I just felt like I’m there are all these things that I want to do, and this marriage and these kids and this family is, you know, interfering with my the accomplishment of my goals or whatever.

Jeff Hittenberger [00:03:55]:

And I’m really, really grateful to be married to somebody who would lovingly say to me, hey. This is your life, and it’s deserving of your full attention. And that’s going to require some change. And she didn’t always say it that calmly. I am saying

Bonni Stachowiak [00:04:19]:

I mean, to be fair.

Jeff Hittenberger [00:04:20]:

But but it was so and I’m so grateful for someone in my life that close, who to this day will say that to me when I’m over the top with things I’m working on or things I’m trying to accomplish and to have somebody who is who is calling me to discernment, who’s calling me to wisdom, and helping me recenter and refocus on what matters most. And and so that’s kinda how I would start answering that question.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:04:53]:

Yeah. I the phrase that you just shared from your memories of those conversations, this is your life. Yeah. It is deserving of your full attention. Yeah. I almost instantly went to so many times we talk about and and I’ll I’ll now move us to an educational context. We talk about wanting people to pay attention.

Jeff Hittenberger [00:05:15]:

Yes. And the transactional nature

Bonni Stachowiak [00:05:16]:

of the word pay. Yes. I believe it was James I believe it was James Lang in his book distracted who did a little bit of reflection. Although Yeah. I could be mixing up the the because many people, of course, have reflected on the idea of what deserves our attention.

Jeff Hittenberger [00:05:33]:

Yep.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:05:33]:

And I I kinda always now try to reframe it because I think pay attention is a phrase that just Yeah. I’m trying to replace it with something else.

Jeff Hittenberger [00:05:42]:

Right.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:05:42]:

And I don’t know if you’ll be able to

Jeff Hittenberger [00:05:45]:

Mhmm.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:05:45]:

Figure out you did. You taught English. Correct?

Jeff Hittenberger [00:05:48]:

I did.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:05:48]:

Okay. So I did not. For some reason, one word that comes to mind that really seems like a good replacement is just another form of the word, I think, and it’s attending. Uh-huh. What is it that I am attending to?

Jeff Hittenberger [00:06:02]:

Yes.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:06:02]:

And what is it that I’m inviting others to attend to? Yeah. And in that particular vein, would you describe a little bit about the tension of where you have in your own teaching felt like you wanted people to pay attention to you

Jeff Hittenberger [00:06:20]:

Yeah.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:06:21]:

Versus now what you may be able to better cultivate to help other people attend, including you Yeah. Attend to something other than paying attention to you. I’m not sure I’m asking the question very well because I’m trying to remember. Is it a verb? Is it a adjective? Yeah. Attending. So, anyway, I’ll let you reflect

Jeff Hittenberger [00:06:39]:

on Yeah. That’s that’s really good. I remember one psychologist who said when you’re working with children who have attention deficit disorder, it’s not they’re not paying attention. They’re just not paying attention to you.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:06:51]:

Oh, so good.

Jeff Hittenberger [00:06:52]:

They’re paying attention to a whole bunch of things.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:06:54]:

So could will you say that again? That’s so good.

Jeff Hittenberger [00:06:56]:

It’s when a child is has so called attention issues, it’s not that they’re not paying attention to you. It’s not they’re not paying attention. They’re just not paying attention to you. They’re paying attention to a whole bunch of other things. What a wonderful reframing

Bonni Stachowiak [00:07:12]:

Yeah. To because so many people on the show have mentioned about past guests

Jeff Hittenberger [00:07:17]:

Yeah.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:07:18]:

Like Karen Costa, who’s talked about her own Yes. ADHD diagnosis as an adult, and then other prior guests have been open about that aspect of their identities as well. But that reframing Yeah. Because then we’re not personalizing it. How dare this person not pay attention to me? Yes. What what would that be like in in a very positive way to be able to attend to so much, so much more beyond what I might be able to otherwise perceive. And I really don’t like when I compare it because it’s not Yeah. It’s not really something I think is helpful to compare other than to help understand other people better and how they might be experiencing their learning.

Jeff Hittenberger [00:07:56]:

And, the beauty of some of the things that are happening in education is that it is focused more on that person’s person centered. You are bringing your attention to things that matter to you. How do we create learning environments where what you are attending to becomes a focal point for the learning so that it’s not reorienting everybody’s attention to that single thing or especially to me? But it’s you are bringing your concerns, your interests, your attentions, your affections into a community of learning that is going to be, affirming of you pursuing and inquiring and developing those things that you care about. That is a really different way, universal design for learning. And many of the things that we are talking about now are efforts to create the space in which what matters to the student, what matters to the learner genuinely matters, and and shapes what’s happening in the learning environment. And to your point, to kind of, elaborate on that a little bit, what should we be attending to, and what should our students be attending to, and what is that common thing that we can all attend to that takes us beyond maybe the the differences in emphasis or priority. For me, that’s flourishing. It’s and what what my wife was saying to me in those early years is, this is your life and your commitment is that we as a couple, and we as a family, and each of us as individuals would flourish.

Jeff Hittenberger [00:09:51]:

Mhmm.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:09:51]:

And

Jeff Hittenberger [00:09:52]:

that we would be about cultivating flourishing in each other and in this family. And that was a completely reasonable assessment on her part. And what she was asking me for went to the core of why we got married in the 1st place, even if I didn’t articulate it to myself. And over time, I’ve come to understand that not only being the driving force in our relationship and in our family, but in our relationship with our students, that they would flourish.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:10:27]:

So much of the time, if somebody’s read a book about teaching, which I imagine the vast majority of people listening to this podcast have, it can I think maybe maybe I’m only speaking for myself, but it can fall flat when you’re early to it? Having struggled with it of Yes. This is not what I, for the most part, was ever ever experienced. I mean, I certainly have stories, but the overwhelming part of my education, I would not have described as my own flourishing. And then when you try some of these things on for size, to me, they can seem transactional. Oh, they’re gonna bring their prior learning in. Well, how could we activate your prior learning? Oh, maybe I give you a pretest and a posttest, and now you’re flourishing. No. No.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:11:11]:

What you did was reduce learning down to a multiple choice test, and that that actually that that is so vastly missing

Jeff Hittenberger [00:11:19]:

Right.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:11:19]:

What it looks like to cultivate flourishing. And I I wanna share a brief story and then invite you to share others as well. I because you don’t know this yet. Just this week, I had one of the best weeks in teaching I’ve had in a long time.

Jeff Hittenberger [00:11:33]:

Awesome.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:11:33]:

And I used an activity I know you’re familiar with from Stephen Covey’s work, the celebrating your 85th birthday in advance. And I talk about this on another podcast episode. Can’t remember when it’s gonna air, but I go into more detail if people are curious about hearing that. But I but you you’re you’re reminding me in today’s conversation, it wasn’t the but before they celebrated it, they did a reflection. They built a collage of with pictures of what they want it to look like Yeah. And then wrote a reflection and then recorded a video. Because most of these students are taking this class asynchronously because they’re on our athletic teams, etcetera. And so then but then it was I mean, it would I thought at first that it was kind of for fun, and sure.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:12:16]:

There’s nothing wrong with it was totally fun.

Jeff Hittenberger [00:12:18]:

Yes.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:12:18]:

I gave a few opportunities this week to either online or on campus to literally celebrate the birthday we had. The cupcakes, the Gatorade, the water, and all of those things. Fun. But you’re really putting to my mind right now, it wasn’t transactional.

Jeff Hittenberger [00:12:33]:

Right.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:12:34]:

It was absolutely cultivating their flourishing, and they were able to bring in their various priorities, their values, the things that they hold the most dear, and, yes, also be a little silly together and and also quite serious together. It was beautiful. Yeah.

Jeff Hittenberger [00:12:51]:

It

Bonni Stachowiak [00:12:52]:

was absolutely beautiful, and I’ve had so many opportunities with you Yeah. Where you’ve invited me to get to see some of the experiences that you helped to cultivate flourishing in your classes. So whatever’s coming into mind, we’d love to have you share 1 or 2 that you wanna talk about that go really beyond that kind of transactional thing where we’re just struggling to to cultivate something, cultivate attention. Yeah. You know, how do we do this?

Jeff Hittenberger [00:13:18]:

Well, I I love that assignment. That is really, really cool. And what strikes me, the older I get is we can now see at my age, I can see the arc of life. I can see the total arc of people’s lives and including my own in a way that when I was young, I couldn’t. There’s a clear beginning. There’s an arc. There’s a clear end.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:13:38]:

Yeah.

Jeff Hittenberger [00:13:39]:

And what happens on that arc within that short time frame is determined by the kinds of decisions we make, the kind of relationships we build, the kind of contributions that we make within a very short constrained time frame.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:13:55]:

Mhmm.

Jeff Hittenberger [00:13:56]:

When you’re young, it’s easy to look forward as if it’s a limitless horizon or at least be at least not think in terms of an end toward which I am building, but have the constraints of every day just push in on every side. Right? And have that dominate your thinking. But if you can come at early to understand that the choices I’m making, the decisions I’m making, the relationships I’m building, the kinds of commitments I’m making today are setting up the arc of that entire lifetime so that when I am 85 and I have that 85th birthday, I look back without regret, and I look back with a sense of joy in what has happened in my life, the relationships I’ve built, the people that I love. So this is why. This goes to the heart of why we emphasize love and wisdom in education. That’s the core of what we do in our in our school of education, in my classes. That’s the heart of it. Our students understand that’s what it is that we’re trying to accomplish.

Jeff Hittenberger [00:15:04]:

That is the flourishing language that we use. And day 1, 1st class in my foundations of teaching class, it’s mission, vision, and values. It’s let’s go deep. What is the moment in your life that you felt most in the zone? What were you doing? What were the circumstances? What would be the verbs that would describe what you were actually doing when that was happening? And we have kind of a whole mission statement building activity and a vision activity. And I say thanks to Laurie Beth Jones’ book called The Path. 3 years from now, describe a day in your life. You’re gonna write about it. Put the date from 3 years from today on the paper.

Jeff Hittenberger [00:15:47]:

Write it in present tense. It’s not I will be doing this. It’s I got up this morning, and the house was full of light. I got myself this kind of coffee. I mean, it is that level of detail. What happened in your classroom that day 3 years from now? What made it so meaningful? How did the day wrap up? Write about it. And these are the things that help shape that sense of setting the arc of not only of your career, but of your life and for you to flourish and for the people you love to flourish and for your students to flourish. And that’s what we call education for love and wisdom.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:16:24]:

Talk more about flourishing. I think it’s such a powerful word that it whenever it’s bring whenever you’ve brought it into conversations, whenever it’s come up, it’s so I I hate to use the word perfect, but it feels so perfect, but there there’s a little bit more of a definition for why it may be perfect. Would you talk about the Harvard University human flourishing program and the different domains that they talk about.

Jeff Hittenberger [00:16:50]:

I think what Harvard has done well is begin to retrieve an idea that has been deeply rooted in cultures around the world for literally 1000 of years. And for example, the notion of Shalom in Hebrew or Salam in Arabic, both are words that mean peace, but not just peace in the sense of absence of conflict. Those words speak to a full complete flourishing in all relationships at all levels. And that is the meaning of shalom or salaam at a deep level. It was that longing for a well-being that was comprehensive. And that as I look in cultures around the world, whether it’s aloha in in Hawaii or Hojo in the Dine or Navajo cultures, or there are many others that have concepts of that nature embedded deep in their culture is what is the purpose of human life. And it is this kind of total and deep well-being. And Harvard has gone back and looked at those kinds of things, and they have these 5 domains that I think get at and sort of unpack a little bit what what those deep cultural values are getting at for for Harvard.

Jeff Hittenberger [00:18:27]:

The 5 are happiness and life satisfaction, physical and mental health, meaning and the pursuit of understanding, character and virtue, and close social relationships. So that’s the kind of unpacked modern version of something I think is deep within every culture, and I think it’s deep within every culture because it’s deep within who we are as humans. It’s deep within our humanity. You can look at theological and philosophical traditions that get at that, And you can see how those shaped even the American concept of we hold these truths to be self evident that all men are created equal, that they’re endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness. That is getting at this deep level flourishing. And and it is also applying it to how we should be relating to each other within society. And as many ways as we have failed to live up to that ideal, that ideal is there in our national formation, and it’s what we keep working toward and fighting for so that it can be realized not just conceptually, but practically in our lives.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:19:45]:

I’m curious your reaction to the word happiness. It shows up both in the Harvard University definition of human flourishing. And then, of course, you’ve now reminded me that it shows up in our some of our founding documents as well. I tend to have a bit of a visceral reaction to happiness or trying to encourage others to cultivate it in themselves for two reasons. I suspect you can probably guess. 1 is I really struggle within my own being Yeah. Unlearning the individualism that was so carefully taught to

Jeff Hittenberger [00:20:17]:

me growing up. Yes.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:20:19]:

And secondarily, happiness is fleeting. Yep. Joy goes beyond circumstances. So, anyway, just curious your reaction to that if you also have the

Jeff Hittenberger [00:20:28]:

That’s such a great question, and happiness can seem like a superficial kind of of state of being. Right? But the most recent powerful example of what we’re getting at, I think, is inside out 1 and inside out 2. When the character of joy in inside out 1, for our listeners who saw the 2 movies, she was basically happiness. She wasn’t really joy in inside out 1 because there was a lot of, like, papering over, like, oh, that’s a bad emotion. Let’s get rid of it. Let’s get rid of it. Then it’s happy, happy, happy. By inside out to what happens in joy is this transformation where all of the emotions become part of her and integrated into her in such a way that what she becomes really is joy.

Jeff Hittenberger [00:21:21]:

It’s not just the happy feelings. It’s that comprehend. She ends up really being in a place of flourishing in that movie. So I apologize to those who haven’t seen the movies. Go see them

Bonni Stachowiak [00:21:32]:

if you haven’t seen them. Oh, go see them now.

Jeff Hittenberger [00:21:34]:

They are absolutely phenomenal, but that’s a beautiful popular culture illustration of the point that we’re talking about now.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:21:42]:

Well, since you brought up Inside Out 2 Yeah. And since for listeners, Jeff already knows this because he’s living his own life. But let me share with you. Jeff has been leading us on our campus throughout a number of different workshops and professional development opportunities around how to in fact, I

Jeff Hittenberger [00:22:01]:

don’t I don’t How to engage in civic life with love and wisdom.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:22:05]:

There we go. And I I don’t wanna ruin the movie for them, but I don’t think this will ruin the movie. Could you talk about the character of anxiety and what it’s been like for you to talk about, not just with students, but we certainly know, faculty and staff, we are well equipped to struggle with anxiety both in a clinical sense as well as in a more environmental sense. What what have you found talking about that character, these discussions you’ve been having, and what wisdom might we glean from that character?

Jeff Hittenberger [00:22:33]:

Plot spoiler, first of all. Oh, no. But Oh, no. But here’s here’s the way this connects to our discussion of civic life. What happens in Inside Out 2 is a character named Anxiety comes to control the board, if you will. The control panel gets taken over by a character called Anxiety. And the point the movie makes beautifully is that all of our emotions tell us important stuff. Right? Every emotion plays a role.

Jeff Hittenberger [00:23:05]:

They’re not good ones and bad ones. Every part of our emotional makeup tells us things that we need to know. But what you don’t want is anxiety to take control of the decision making process or for that matter, fear. If your hair’s on fire, you don’t want fear to be at the control panel in terms of deciding what shall we do. We live in a society today where anxiety and fear are often running the control panel in not only internally, which makes our own lives miserable, but in our relationships to each other and in our relationship to civic life and the public square. And this is what leads to the kind of angry and sometimes even violent reactions that we see in the society. And part of what we’re talking about, how to engage in civic life with love and learning, with love and wisdom is we feel the emotions that we feel. But before we engage and before we act and before we speak, processing those emotions so that they’re not running the control panel, but that discernment and wisdom and love are taking the lead.

Jeff Hittenberger [00:24:19]:

They’re being informed by the full range of emotions, but that’s not what’s governing the way we relate to other people. When we relate to other people, we are informed by deeper understandings that they are people of great value and dignity even if we completely disagree with them. And it’s only when we are able to do that that we can actually have a public square in which civil conversation takes place. We can find ways to learn with to to live with our deepest differences, and we can find working resolutions that move us forward as a society with an understanding we’re in a pluralistic environment in which there are gonna be many different opinions shared in a public square among fellow citizens who are still committed to some core principles that make us a nation.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:25:13]:

Would love to hear your reflections on another thing that I struggle with, which I which I mentioned a little bit earlier. I know it’s still in me. I’m I’m swimming in the water of individualism. Yeah. Yet I have learned so much from other cultures, other people, read so much, been friends with people who are so much more adept at being able to see and experience and engage in the world in collectivist ways toward the common good.

Jeff Hittenberger [00:25:43]:

Yes.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:25:44]:

What have you found helps? The those of us fish women in the water, we don’t know any better to see a different lens we might apply because so much of it and that’s what I again, I wanna first be humble and recognize I still struggle with it, but I’m certainly further along than I was 10 years ago and 10 years before that. And sometimes I get impatient that can’t we all figure out that that’s the only way through this is toward the common good, not toward my own self interest, not toward the fear and the anger and the what’s mine is mine, and there’s not enough for you to have any of. I gotta protect my, you know, my stuff or my things or my ideas or my, you know, really root myself and my individual perspective?

Jeff Hittenberger [00:26:32]:

It’s such a great question, and and I think we’re all driven by those kind of individual ambitions. And a lot of times, that’s what’s prioritized and who’s on TV celebrated as the the the person to emulate. It’s oftentimes the billionaire or the person who looks this way or the person who’s achieved this and the rugged individual. And all all that is is perhaps fine in its own way, but one practice that we can do is play out the implications of gaining the whole world and losing the people I love and losing my community’s well-being and losing my core set of relationships or my core values, gaining the whole world and losing my soul. Because just rationally playing out the reality of a society in which a few people win and most people don’t thrive, ultimately destroys the entire community, including those who thought they were winning. So that that can be a helpful practice. I am so grateful for organ I was on a webinar yesterday with Orange County United Way. And and United Way is a great example of one of many community based organizations that advocate for collaboration within our diverse communities across lines on shared values and shared projects to make better communities, better society, ultimately a better nation.

Jeff Hittenberger [00:28:10]:

This particular one was focused on employment and housing options for adults with intellectual and developmental disabilities. There were a lot of people there who were not directly impacted by that and a lot of people who are community leaders, but who who understand that the flourishing of a person with those needs ultimately is going to be related to my own flourishing because we are a part of the same community. We’ve been hit super hard in the United States with the phenomenon of homelessness. And you can feel really, really good about being wealthy and you’re surrounded by homeless people. On a certain point, it it is it it should be a wake up call to say, what do we need to be doing to create a society in which greater proportions of our fellow citizens are flourishing? What needs to happen to make that possible? And, fortunately, we’re surrounded by community members and organizations and people to collaborate with who share that concern, and we can connect ourselves to that and say, what do I have to contribute to this? Because whatever the gifts and blessings that I have, I can share with other people without giving them up, without saying, no. Oh, no. I’m just gonna become an ascetic and and leave it all behind. Although, maybe some individuals will be called to that.

Jeff Hittenberger [00:29:39]:

Who knows? But I can just take the things that I am blessed to have as a part of my life and extend them out to other people and have that become part of my consciousness. And that is far more likely in the long run to cultivate a sense of joy and flourishing in me than hoarding my little stash and fighting to keep the barbarians out of the gate. And, unfortunately, that’s where, like, intense individualism usually takes us. Is that defensive posture in the fear and anger?

Bonni Stachowiak [00:30:13]:

Yeah. This actually takes us to the recommendation segment because I think it’ll just continue our conversation, actually. We we are in the United States here preparing for a major election. Maybe those of you listening from outside the United States have heard of our election upcoming, and this episode is gonna air prior to that time. So, of course, you know, politics is swimming through my mind. It it actually swims through my mind even when it isn’t a year of a presidential election. And, you know, Jeff, so many at our university doing such a wonderful job with a year of civility project and cultivating really important conversations. And, also, I’ve I was recently contacted by somebody who listened to an episode who’s gonna come on in the future and talk even more about how to have contentious conversations.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:30:59]:

And so a lot of what I’m hearing and experiencing is and I mean, in my teaching context, wanting to be continually equipped to facilitate and have conversations with people who think very differently from each other, and in many cases, very differently from me. That being said, I would like to recommend, yes, we do that. Yes, I do that. Yes, we keep becoming. It’s never over. We’re never done. We keep becoming, keep cultivating that, keep working on it. I’ve been thinking a lot about wanting to recommend and and thinking about we we’ve also got to spend time getting curious with someone you agree with on most things.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:31:46]:

And I’m thinking about right now, we’re, as a family, getting ready to go spend some time with some friends who, prior to COVID hitting us, used to every single year hold a I don’t even remember what he calls them, but like an election prep night. And he would often play little clips from our national public radio shows about the different local issues, and people would get together. And I didn’t always know everybody at these nights, but as we get together, I would find there was probably a reason why this family would invite people together. We were not on opposite sides of any, but sometimes there would be this local issue where it would be like, I have no idea how to vote on that, and there would be someone there who is a nurse, and I just wouldn’t have been exposed. The webinar that Jeff mentioned, I I’m not exposed to a lot of those things that I listened and watched it last night and thought, well, thank you. Jeff and I agree on an awful lot of things. And when I think about my memories of our most special conversations and our friendships, they’re actually where we discover something we disagree on, and it actually becomes fun. I don’t get afraid Mhmm.

Jeff Hittenberger [00:32:54]:

Ever Right.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:32:55]:

Of having a conversation where we see things differently. Yeah. We see a lot of things the same. Mhmm. And also, I just treasure the fact that I feel like you know me to my core being Mhmm. What I value such that if I were to see an issue totally different from you Yeah. I don’t think anything would wound that. Yeah.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:33:14]:

I think it would I mean, in my experience, on my end of things, it just gives me more curious. Oh, he sees that. That’s so different than how I see it. Yes. And that you’ve mentioned occasion. Oh, Christine sees that diff oh, I wonder why. You know that when when you hold those shared values and you agree on most things, I feel like I benefit even more for I I just need those. I need the nourishment that comes Yeah.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:33:37]:

Because I’m not so afraid, speaking of being afraid or living letting anxiety or letting fear at the at the control board. And, especially, it’s so hard when you’re teaching and you’re really wanting to do well that people come out the other side Mhmm. Flourishing even more, you know, that kind of thing. So I wanted to just mention a couple things. I was trying to find an article from Harold Jarche about climate change because and I can’t find it. I will link to his articles. He has many articles about climate change, and I couldn’t find the specific one. But what I remember from the article was he doesn’t wanna talk about people who deny that it’s a thing, who think that it’s a hoax.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:34:18]:

He doesn’t wanna talk to those people. He actually wants to hear from people and learn from people who believe it is an absolute devastating phenomenon that we have to do something about who slightly disagree on what. And so that’s kinda where I was wanting to rec but were to recommend, I will link to the Harold Jarche articles about climate change, and then also one that was really good about addressing wicked problems, which I think had some really important nuance here. But I just I guess I mostly just wanna thank you, Jeff, for our friendship that you literally just one of those people who comes to mind. I love whenever we get to go for walks. I love to be together. You’re one of the safest people who I work with where if we came up, I would just be I might be confused, but in a good way. Like, oh, that’s weird because I would have predicted that he would have thought this way.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:35:10]:

And then oftentimes, because you have worked in different contexts than I have, it’ll be like, oh, I didn’t even think about that. You know? As a parent to the United Way webinar that you sent me, I am not a parent of a child who is is in need of accessing the kinds of resources for people with intellectual disabilities. You are. So, I mean, how wonderful that you’re obviously, we we live in different contexts, but we share so many of the values, and there’s safety in that. There is nourishment is that there is peace in that, and there is flourishing in that.

Jeff Hittenberger [00:35:47]:

I love that, Bonni. And one of the things I really value about you as a friend is your curiosity. Because even when we agree on something, you’re curious about understanding it more deeply. You’re curious about how we got to it. You asked really good questions and you and so and that curiosity extends not

Bonni Stachowiak [00:36:08]:

only to people who agree

Jeff Hittenberger [00:36:09]:

with you, but also people who disagree. You’re curious about how they came to think that way. And I I think part of what, you’re getting at is bringing curiosity to our relationships, both with people that we disagree with and people that we agree with, opens us up to the possibilities of learning in both of those cases.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:36:35]:

Well, I treasure that compliment. Thank you. I do love curiosity, and I wanted to just share a quote from that Harold Jarche article about addressing wicked problems. He writes, we need to seek out the different. Curiosity is the key to progress as individuals and as a society in times of extreme complexity.

Jeff Hittenberger [00:36:58]:

Oh, love that.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:36:59]:

That’s good. I’m gonna pass it over to you for whatever you’d like to recommend, Jeff. You

Jeff Hittenberger [00:37:03]:

know, I really feel like there’s something I wanna celebrate because oftentimes in in the highly fraught moment like we’re in the United States right now, it’s, like, hard to think, oh, is there something to celebrate or not? But there is something serious to celebrate right now, and that is that the Mendez versus Westminster story. And if your listeners are not familiar with Sylvia Mendez and Mendez versus Westminster, Google it. Actually, season 3, episode 3 of Education for Love and Wisdom podcast focuses on that story. Sylvia Mendez is an icon of the civil rights movement in California, the end of school segregation. She’s been telling the story and advocating for people learning the story for years, and this was the California case that predated Brown versus Board of Education by 7 years. It was decided in 1947 and ended school segregation in California. Sylvia is a gem. She’s 88 years old.

Jeff Hittenberger [00:38:04]:

She embodies what we’re talking about in terms of flourishing and education for love and wisdom. This past week, the governor of California signed legislation to confirm that Mendez versus Westminster will be taught to every student in California as part of the history social science curriculum. And it’s a story that really is about communities gathering together to stand up for our American ideals in a time, in this case, the time of segregation, when those ideals were under threat and were being denied. As we engage in civic life and in the public square, we show up not in fear and anger, but with love and wisdom. We advocate. We work as much as possible as we can with people. And there are times, as in the case of the Mendez family, where legal action might be necessary. And that is still within the framework of our democratic process.

Jeff Hittenberger [00:39:10]:

And the Mendez family did that in the mid 19 forties. And Sylvia was 8 years old when she was turned away from the so called white school. They won that case. Schools were integrated in California, and we became a much better community, a much better society because of it. And, so Sylvia Mendez embodies what we’re talking about today. This was a week of incredible celebration for her at age 88. She’s 3 years past that 85th birthday celebration. And her work all these years was sort of come to fulfillment and fruition with California recognizing, hey.

Jeff Hittenberger [00:39:50]:

We’ve got one of the most important cases in American history that every child in the state should learn about, and that just happened. So we’re celebrating that. That’s my recommendation for this week. Get to know the Sylvia Mendez and Mendez versus Westminster story.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:40:07]:

What I told my friend Shannon at work that I loved about the 85th birthday celebration, I was just elated. Yeah. You would have laughed if you would have seen me. I said because it just there you can’t disagree about peep what they want to celebrate. I mean, there there’s there’s no disagreement there. It it brought a sense of unity Yes. Like I haven’t experienced in such a long time, and having been able to go visit the not memorial.

Jeff Hittenberger [00:40:37]:

Mendez Park?

Bonni Stachowiak [00:40:38]:

Mendez Park in Westminster, and get to witness students and community members getting to hear these stories, many of whom for the first time, and get to walk the street that she had to walk to go walk away from the so called white school that she wasn’t allowed to go to until after this action was taken. There’s something else about walking the street, seeing her face.

Jeff Hittenberger [00:41:09]:

Yeah.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:41:09]:

The the the park there, the it’s it’s it’s every sense of our of our Mhmm. Not just emotions, but there are things that you can touch, you can hear, you can experience in digital form and an analog form. It’s incredible. But every time I’ve ever been able to be a part of one of these experiences that you’ve facilitated, I walk away with that same feeling of hope Yes. And celebration of boy, if we can start there, that doesn’t mean we’re done. Yes. Because no doubt, though, it does we do have to deconstruct Yep. Some of the things we grew up with that we haven’t yet tested against those values.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:41:48]:

Yes. We haven’t had that modeled for us to do, but if we can keep harkening back to that, oh, that it just makes it easier to, you know, engage with love and wisdom.

Jeff Hittenberger [00:41:59]:

That’s right. That’s right. The work of flourishing is a lifelong project, and Sylvia embodies that at 88.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:42:05]:

Yay. Jeff, thank you so much for Bonni. Today’s conversation. And I can’t wait until the next one because we’re not done. And you you and your colleagues have oh, we should share about the book. Yes. You and your colleagues have written an incredible book, and you and I only only getting started here. And we had Glenn previously on Glenn Warren, and I imagine there’s probably even more we’ll be having about education for love and wisdom in the future because we’ve we’ve just skimmed the surface.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:42:28]:

But do you wanna share about the book? And then we’ll put a link in the in the show notes.

Jeff Hittenberger [00:42:31]:

Education for love and wisdom, effective teachers for challenging times. On the cover of the book is a picture of Sylvia Mendez at Mendez Park, surrounded by student teachers and faculty from our university who are sharing in the history that she has lived. And the chapters really talk about how we can bring love and wisdom into every facet of our teaching and our work as educators. So as a it was a labor of love. It’s exciting thing to be a part of, and I I think we’ll share in the show notes how people can get the book.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:43:06]:

Yeah. Thanks again, Jeff.

Jeff Hittenberger [00:43:08]:

Thanks so much, Bonni.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:43:11]:

Thanks once again to Jeff Hittenberger for joining me for today’s episode of Teaching in Higher Ed. Today’s episode was produced by me, Bonni Stachowiak. It was edited by the ever talented Andrew Kroeger. Podcast production support was provided by the amazing Sierra Priest. If you’ve yet to sign up for those weekly emails, it’s time to head over to teachinginhighered.comsubscribe. You’ll receive the most recent episodes show notes as well as some other excellent resources that don’t show up in the show notes. You gotta subscribe. Thanks so much for listening, and I’ll see you next time on Teaching in Higher Ed.

Teaching in Higher Ed transcripts are created using a combination of an automated transcription service and human beings. This text likely will not represent the precise, word-for-word conversation that was had. The accuracy of the transcripts will vary. The authoritative record of the Teaching in Higher Ed podcasts is contained in the audio file.