Bonni Stachowiak [00:00:00]:

Today on episode number 509 of the Teaching in Higher Ed podcast, How to Teach in Active Learning Spaces with Kem Saichaie.

Podcast Production: Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:00:21]:

Welcome to this episode of Teaching in Higher Ed. I’m Bonni Stachowiak, and this is the space where we explore the art and science of being more effective at facilitating learning. We also share ways to improve our productivity approaches, so we can have more peace in our lives and be even more present for our students. I’m thrilled to be welcoming to the show today, Kem Saichaie. He’s the director of teaching, learning, and assessments and the interim director of the Center For Educational Effectiveness at the University of California Davis. He works with faculty, graduate students, and administrators across disciplines to investigate evidence based pedagogy practices and integrate them into face to face, hybrid, and online learning spaces. His research focuses on institutional change efforts and pedagogical approaches to improve teaching and learning in higher education. This agenda includes examining the interplay of identity, representation, and pedagogies within existing and emergent learning ecologies.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:01:43]:

Kem’s experience in higher education includes roles in academic technology, admissions, educational development, and as a faculty member. Kem Saichaie, welcome to Teaching in Higher Ed.

Kem Saichaie [00:01:56]:

Thanks, Bonni. Great to be here.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:01:57]:

Years ago, I used to work for the University of California, Irvine, and part of my role meant we got to travel around to the different campuses. And I have to tell you, the University of California, Davis is quite a special unique place. I remember being so blown away by the trees and by some of the beauty there, and I’m I’m kinda feeling a little bit jealous of you to get to experience that on a regular basis. Are there 1 or 2 places on your campus that you just think are just absolutely incredible and special to you as far as that goes?

Kem Saichaie [00:02:31]:

Absolutely. I would say that I think it has the biggest footprint of all the UCs still as far as sort of just overall size. But interestingly, I grew up in the Midwest, and so one of the things that people notice when they’re here is that they can smell animals, specifically livestock. And so less than half a mile from my office that I’m sitting in right now are live cows that students use and researchers use as a part of their every you can ride your bike past them. You can walk past them. They’re right next to some residence halls. And so people are always like, where is that coming from? It’s like, well, you can walk right over there and take a look. And so most folks who may not have had a lot of close proximity to livestock before And it’s novel for a while, but, then it loses its novelty after just a little bit.

Kem Saichaie [00:03:16]:

But I would say the 2nd place on campus, we have a lovely arboretum here that runs the length of the, most of the campus here in Davis, and it has a variety of trees from all over the world, a nice, water pond that goes or a stream that goes through that culminates in a pond, and it’s just, ducks, some fish in there, and all the things that, make up this natural Northern California sort of habitat. It’s really a nice space.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:03:39]:

Very peaceful. So if I ever have the opportunity to come back to UC Davis, I am not gonna wanna go visit the trees that I remember from last time. I’m not gonna wanna go visit. You already know where I’m gonna wanna go visit.

Kem Saichaie [00:03:52]:

I’ll walk right over there. I’d be happy to show you.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:03:57]:

The teaching and learning complex. Could you talk a little bit about it and and and kinda if we were to ever visit, what we might see there?

Kem Saichaie [00:04:02]:

Absolutely. It’s a it’s a really unique design that blends, I think, some of the design influences were influences by the the natural beauty and and, geography that we see here in Northern California. So everything down to the paint schemes represent different parts of this the sky, the the grass, the grains, the the things that are central to a lot of the agricultural components, that are related to UC Davis. But it also features a lot of natural light in the space because we know the connection between, the natural environment and and human learning is quite strong. And so we tried to work very closely, and this was the design, and the architects wanted to bring in that natural light. And, also, to make learning quite visible, it’s located on a very central spot on campus across from a major bus stop. And when students come through, we wanna make that learning visible to to show what, learning looks like for all students. And in fact, some of the internal buildings still have cutouts so people can walk by and and feel like they’re part of a learning community and environment that really emphasizes that experience versus, those sort of classrooms that you go into.

Kem Saichaie [00:05:03]:

It has a 5 or 4 digit number. You’re like, okay. Is this 1100? You know, this name of the building, I better go in here. And you go sometimes into that room, and you wonder what the motivation was behind the design beyond some traditional design. So it has a lot of, design features that center the human experience, brings in natural elements, and, again, is focused on spaces that are best aligned with learning sciences.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:05:25]:

I’m gonna start this interview with 2 unfair questions. And I say that they are unfair because you have such rich experience and such rich research that you’ve done. And so I say they’re unfair because they’re so big, but I did warn you in advance that, you know, we I wish we had days and days and days to talk about it, but that I’m asking you unfair stuff just to pick out a couple of ideas. But one thing is that you wrote a book, and I’d I’d like to just hear a bit about the history of active learning spaces. But rather than telling us the entire history, what is what’s one or two things that you feel like everybody should know about who teaches in higher education? Maybe these are surprising things about that history, but you think would be important for us to be rooted in our own knowledge and how we approach our teaching.

Kem Saichaie [00:06:15]:

Yeah. I would I had the fortune to be a coauthor in a larger project that had several other folks that have been engaged in, active learning classroom research for a number of years. But to address your question more specifically, some of the early literature in the late 2000s, sorry, late nineties, early 2000s, was really grounded in some STEM educators wanting to think about better ways to marry that experience between lab, classroom, and studio. And oftentimes, at least at the research intensive level, we have this false comparison between STEM and non STEM types of teaching in classrooms. And so, what I like to point out when I use this example is that one of the really founding thought leaders in this space wanted to bring together studio type of learning experiences, lab learning experiences, and, science classroom learning experiences. And so those all came together in a design that allows students to more easily interact with each other, and and that sometimes is just overlooked or or not well known. So I would say that’s a a real component of it too. And then I think a lot of the the way that spaces are designed, we take for granted and and perhaps overlook.

Kem Saichaie [00:07:22]:

And so one of those components is that many of these places have flatter floors. And those flatter floors allow for ease of accessibility should you have mobility issues. In addition to that, it sort of equalizes how people are able to interact. So oftentimes, we think of large lecture halls, if you will, at the at the larger institutions or even maybe, smaller institutions that have sort of steps or or other ways that differentiate the eye eye contact level that people can have. And so a lot of these rooms are designed with flat floors so people can have a more equal interaction where they can look at each other eye to eye and sort of face to face and and have that real human connection without having to have sort of built in differentials and power perhaps there or even just having to move around spaces that aren’t that don’t provide ease of access for for all types of folks.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:08:11]:

Now I I think that I know what you mean when you say lab. I think that I know what you mean when you say classroom, and I kinda think I know what you mean when you say studio. But because of my awareness of probably, if I think I know what you mean, I probably don’t even have a clue. So I I’m particularly intrigued especially those of us, myself very much included, who that’s not my discipline, that’s not my field, but I’ve been in a lab, and, of course, my university has labs. My university has studios too, but those are not not in the same discipline. So I I would not, if you I think you might have said STEM having studios, or I just misunderstood you. Do you know what I’m saying? So I’m kinda like, tell us a little bit more about what does a lab mean? And and, obviously, you were sort of implying that labs go beyond just stem. Classrooms go beyond just what might think of, and then studios.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:09:13]:

I’m really intrigued by the studio idea and what kinds of disciplines or maybe is it all disciplines might come to mind, and I should I be bending my thinking that way when it comes to possibilities for studio spaces?

Kem Saichaie [00:09:25]:

I think, Bonnie, your question really elevates some of the sort of assumptions we make as educators and and administrators and some and maybe even students about, like, we say something and and know that what we’re talking about might not be in the mind’s eye of what, the person we’re communicating with is thinking about. So to to clarify a little bit more, I think the the idea behind the sort of lab components, oftentimes we think of working at a bench or a wet lab where there’s a microscope scope or some measurement materials, and we’re moving and we’re looking at very precise things and and under very sort of controlled conditions. And in a classroom setting, we’re oftentimes thinking of listening to somebody transmitting information to us and and perhaps aren’t actively thinking about types of interactions that are going on, especially at a post secondary level since we have the tradition of the lecture and the lecture hall. And I can talk about that more in a moment. And then from the studio perspective, oftentimes, what, what comes to mind for folks is that people have space to move around and things can hang on the walls, and we can see reflections of people’s interpretations of the prompts that’s in front of them or, the motivation that’s been put in front of them. And so it has more opportunities to do some hands Bonni, applied works, maybe similar to a lab, but there is just a little bit more room for movement and creativity based on the design of the space by just having the space where where things can be displayed more readily, whether that be through physical or or digital mediums. And so I hope in that way that helps, I guess, clarify what I what I think about when I would think about, like, these studio spaces, lab spaces, and, classroom spaces having, some shared, ideas, but how do we build those spaces for folks that that may want to combine that type of learning, in those 3 specific places into one central place.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:11:15]:

This is so good, Kim, and you’re you’re really helping to have me have me and I hope listeners really start to bump up against some of our assumptions like you said. So I was thinking when you were talking about a lab, yes. We tend to think of the bench and the wet labs, and you say studio. My mind instantly goes to when we, in the last few months, had an opportunity to to kick off a podcasting studio at my university or a a music studio, that kind of a thing. So it’s I’m thinking that studio or art studios. We have a view amazing photography, adjunct that comes in, and the whole entire walls of one of our buildings will just be covered with these amazing so are we trying to think about maybe STEM disciplines could think about studio spaces and display their works and that I mean or or is that not happening? Am I am I just extending something that’s not trying to be extended by the researchers and innovators?

Kem Saichaie [00:12:13]:

I think what you’re demonstrating here in in your thought process is the idea that we’re trying to to think about the possibilities. And that’s what we really want people to do when they look at classroom spaces and think about the learning possibilities in them, and imagine what it would be like if they had the opportunity to be able to have a space that best fit what they wanted to accomplish as an instructor while still centering student learning. And so at the heart of many of these sort of active learning classroom design spaces is the concept of flexibility. And a lot of time, this equates to movable furniture, desks, chairs, tables, whiteboards, or writeable surfaces, even monitors, to allow the instructor to really facilitate a learning process that isn’t dictated by the design of the classroom. And so multiple interpretations of what could be possible in those space are available to folks, but it sometimes require them to be thinking a little bit differently about the learning experience they want the students to have based on the perhaps direct experience they had as students themselves.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:13:16]:

Yeah. Alright. Well, I told you I had 2 questions. People are like, did she remember she had a second question? This is you’re so intriguing. Your your your areas of expertise are so intriguing to me. I have to settle down. Alright. So second question.

Kem Saichaie [00:13:30]:

Yes.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:13:31]:

In your bio, I got to learn a little bit about you and and looking over your, research and such. One of the things that intrigued me is that you teach a seminar about college teaching, and you have for quite some time. And I was just kind of intrigued by this idea of what’s sort of the hard topic to teach Anytime I would have someone on who might be, you know, their their PhD was in chemistry, they would be able to really quickly tell me, like, this is really hard to teach in the first chemistry. That that’s a really hard concept to have people learn. They know right where it is. And I was kinda curious, do you have in teaching a class like that, kind of what’s one of the harder things for people to really get from that class?

Kem Saichaie [00:14:08]:

Yeah. I would say 2 things, about that the class is interdisciplinary. It’s primarily designed for graduate students who envision themselves as educators in a postsecondary setting. And, oftentimes, we have postdoctoral scholars in the space too, who may not have had the opportunity to do much teaching, based on the research focus that they have. And so this is really a chance for them to ask questions, as it informs their future teaching possibilities or plans. And so I would say 2 things are really part of that process. One piece of it is that they come into the space with a lot of assets, and think helping them think about the assets that they’re bringing into the space from a content matter or subject matter expertise. That is a clear concept for them to understand.

Kem Saichaie [00:14:52]:

But when we talk about bringing the pedagogical knowledge into the space, that takes a little bit of time to help them unpack. And many times, they have the experiences or they know what they’d like to do, and we bring them opportunities to connect those concepts, practices, ideas, plans with research that’s based on how students actually learn and better help students that are, from historically underrepresented populations. So it’s giving them the vocabulary to know about what we’re trying to accomplish in the class. It’s giving them ways of thinking about how pedagogical knowledge can work in harmony with their subject matter or content knowledge to advance, what they wanna accomplish as educators on the behalf of their students’ learning. And so one of the concepts that still we spend some time on is talking about defining active learning. And so central to many sort of educational developer modes of practice is we have folks come up with a definition of active learning, and and students come up with a variety of things. And I ask them for an example of what that looks like. And sometimes they have one from personal experience.

Kem Saichaie [00:15:59]:

Sometimes they’re doing them in the classes that they’re TA ing for. But I get them to think about 3 main areas to focus on their sort of pedagogical definitions of active learning, and that relates to specific things that philosophies of how we do things down to the actual activities themselves. So team based learning, problem based learning, those components all speak to the pedagogical component. But, also, there’s a physical piece of this too. And we know with the classroom being in a virtual space, sometimes that can be a new way of thinking about things. But in the active learning classroom specifically, and and I’ve had the good fortune to teach in many of these spaces, that the physical arrangement and possibilities are new to them because they’re often not confronted with the ability to have a choice in that space. So thinking about how one needs to teach both the subject matter and the students who are there to learn the subject matter or to be partners in the learning process, but also you need to teach about the room and how it’s been designed intentionally to support student learning, based in learning sciences. And I would say the part that runs very close to that is the sort of psychological definitions that we have to shift and adjust to based on the fact that we don’t come in, we don’t see rooms, we see natural light coming into many of these spaces, we see monitors, we see ability for ourselves to plug in and move things around ourselves.

Kem Saichaie [00:17:18]:

And confronted with these options, it can be disorienting for folks. And so getting people comfortable with the room, why it was designed that way, ways that can help advanced learning connect that to what folks maybe want to do as far as when they leave college, for example. So explaining how it connects to what most folks will find that employers desire, is a big part of that sort of defining active learning and then getting students to realize that they are very much at the center of designing the students’ learning experience, and there are a number of tools that can complement that.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:17:50]:

Something I’ve been intrigued by pretty much the entire time I’ve been doing this podcast is this idea in fact, I think I had a title of a episode of the things we cannot see. And an example of that that I have not heard about for a very long time, but there was this app that got a lot of publicity at the time where it was like annotating a document. But instead of annotating a document, it was annotating where you were, geographically speaking, and down to the very finite. So there were a lot of universities and colleges at the time that had to address where there were offensive, essentially, virtual graffiti left on their campuses that were not representative of the values of the institution. And how do you navigate that kind of thing when really anybody is free to, drop beauty into the world and opportunities for connection and also drop, you know, the opposite of that? So I remember being very intrigued by that idea that there’s so much we can’t see. And maybe this is trite, but many of us might remember those commercials that they had. And I can’t even remember what they were advertising for, so it probably didn’t work very well. But it was all these people passing by, and you just see a face, but above them is a little a little bubble of what’s really going on.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:19:03]:

This person just lost a parent. This person just lost their job or whatever. And it was just this reminder of how much people are going through. I’m curious for you as you think about so instead of me getting to go to UC Davis, maybe you come down to Orange County, and I tour you around our campus. And, you know, what would be the kinds of things that you would be noticing and and and seeing kind of those those they’re not on signs, but but, like, what do you see that that maybe the rest of us could brush up our skills and attention to be able to see better. So when you walk into a learning space, what do you see that perhaps many of us who aren’t quite as aware about the research might not be aware of?

Kem Saichaie [00:19:47]:

Yeah. Great question. And I would be happy to come down to Orange County. My family lives in Southern California, so I can maybe say hello to them as well. But what I think about when that question comes up too is that there are all kinds of sort of landmarks or things that appear on campuses for reasons that we don’t know about. And oftentimes, we think about how central teaching is to the mission of many higher education institutions and how they communicate that message. And so one of the things that when I’m moving through spaces, thinking about, like, what are we actually calling these spaces? Are we intentional about those spaces? And so at the grand opening of our teaching and learning complex here, we were intentional about the name because we wanna be very clear about what happens there. Oftentimes, this is named for a person who nobody knows about or it has an acronym, which just adds to the acronym soup of most campuses.

Kem Saichaie [00:20:34]:

But we think about, generally, they’re called lecture halls. And so what expectation does that set for us as learners and instructors when something is called a lecture hall? So going down to something as specific and perhaps even basic as what the rooms are called is one thing that I observe. But oftentimes, I think about what, what the distance between a particular space to think about, you know, if we have an instructor console that’s at the front of the room, then we are, in some ways, prescribing what we want students to do is they want them to face one direction, and that’s typically not each other. And so what do we lose in an experience when we have seating faced in one direction? And so, sure, we can turn, and there are various ways that that’s built into the to the furniture, if you will. But all these smaller details help us think about, again, what we’re trying to do intentionally to advance the learning mission or the educational mission of an institution, and it can be just down to that level. We spent a lot of time, for example, in this new design, looking at the types of chairs that are in the space, because we know people sometimes have to sit for a long time in classes. That not that’s not comfortable for everybody. That’s not possible for everybody, and just being very intentional about the design.

Kem Saichaie [00:21:44]:

And so if we think about, okay, these chairs can do this piece of it, but they can also move and they can also allow one to get out of it if they’re able to, quite easily to do other pieces. And if they’re not able to get out of it, what other types of things do we need to consider? So height of whiteboards, just, width of walkways and pathways. So thinking about the whole component. And oftentimes, people will go and look at a screen or a smart board and say, wow, this is really cool. Tell me more about that. I was like, yeah, but that it has a lot of features, but how are you integrating it intentionally into into your objectives as an educator?

Bonni Stachowiak [00:22:19]:

Well, the smart boards is kind of a you you struck on a a chord for me or but not a pleasant chord to listen to in the sense of I’ve just been witness where you invest in something like that. And for me, I I remember being scheduled to teach in a class that had a smart board when it felt like they were very early and very, you know, I’m saying innovative in air quotes here, but but it to me, as technological as I am both intrigued by technology, and I love being curious about how we might use it in our teaching. Even for me, it wasn’t worth it for me to learn it

Kem Saichaie [00:22:52]:

Yeah.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:22:53]:

And all of how to integrate it and really maximize the use of it when I taught one class in there, but my 3 other classes were held elsewhere on the it just wasn’t it just wasn’t worth it. Give me a stack of sticky notes any day, and I can take those sticky notes with me anywhere, and it doesn’t matter if I’m in a conference room or if I’m in more of a traditional lecture hall, that kind of thing. They felt like such more flexible spaces. And that’s something I’m trying to think about too. I was kinda curious if you have any remarks, those of us I keep I always think of, like, oh, those of us at small schools, I’m sure you never face things like this, but I’m saying these words, and you must face it. I mean, one of the things we have as a challenge is the more flexibility that you give in a space. So we are about to open up a new building, and furniture selections are being finalized, and there’s gonna be wheels on a lot more things than we’ve ever had on our campus. But it really does that which, by the way, I’m ecstatic about.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:23:46]:

Please don’t. End of end of sentence. I’ll stop for a moment so people know I’m done. That sentence is now over, and now I will say the real challenge is trying to create the cultural norms and the process norms to be able to get things reset, but not have to hire additional full time employees when people are faced with budget realities that don’t allow to add tremendous amounts of staff to get us all back to reset to perfect every time in between classes. Like, I don’t know if you have any advice or thoughts around kind of, like, the realities of just the flexibility brains, amazing things, yet you do have to kind of put some structure back in to help that flexibility be able to be sustainable.

Kem Saichaie [00:24:32]:

Yeah. I would say the structure is a really essential part of of that response is thinking about what you want to accomplish, and that requires having a plan and being reflective in what has worked for you in the past and what you wanna accomplish. And there are many things that you can use to help structure your thinking about structure. So for me, a lot of this comes back to sort of a sort of design justice perspective where, you know, which voices are we centering in the process? What data inform how we think about those voices? And what are we doing to continuously assess the, relevance of what we’re trying to do and and for who. And so to take this back to the classroom space, and particularly those that are designed in sort of this active learning classroom format. Some colleagues, one of the coauthors of the book, Christina Peterson, and another coauthor wrote beforehand, I think this this makes a lot of sense, is that we ask folks to take small, sane steps in the process. So the situation you described with, I’ve got one class in this room, which is which was built this century, one with which was built 2 centuries ago now if we think about where we’re at. And how can I make sure that I’m flexible enough in my own teaching to be able to maximize the learning experience for students? And one of the things that we did to help people gain some familiarity with that, because flexibility requires familiarity.

Kem Saichaie [00:25:47]:

Again, many of us teach how we were taught, and that doesn’t necessarily align with the always the evidence on how students learn, particularly those, again, from under historically underrepresented populations, is giving yourself some familiarity with the space. And so one of the things that we were really able to do, and this is a particular point of pride, having worked on active learning classroom buildings at a number of research intensive campuses, so on this space in particular, we have a teaching and learning lab, and it’s built to mimic many of the other flexible learning classrooms in the building such that faculty members, TAs, instructional staff members can come together in this space and not only participate in programming that’s designed to help them utilize the affordances of the space, whether it be technology, furniture, whiteboards, what have you. But just become more familiar with learning in the environment because that can help inform how they teach in the environment. So in addition to some formal programming we have in this space, folks are able to teach in this space. It’s it’s a class that can go up to 120, so it it won’t suit everyone, but it will still suit a wide variety of folks that are interested in in, expanding their experience with more flexible and flexible and active learning pedagogies and spaces. So I think that that will help them just get more familiar with things so they can have a greater amount of confidence. And given that confidence, that will inform how they structure their thinking. But then finally, to answer the real practical, like, how do we get these rooms back together? Or I come in this classroom and things are all over the place.

Kem Saichaie [00:27:15]:

A quick story about that is that when this building was first opening, we had a chance to hold our large TA orientation. This is us students from across the campus who are new to Davis and will have teaching responsibilities, either set for them or in the future. And this is about 1500 graduate students from across the discipline, come in. And so we have the sessions that are facilitated by peers set up in in table groups throughout the 1st floor and second floor of the building where people would come in and they would get in groups nationally through the intention of the design. And then the next day was the formal start of classes on campus, and it was the first time it was open for everybody. And what do we do? We go back in to these classrooms and we look we peek in because we’re excited to see, did Dave tables stay in groups? No. They were all put back into rows. And so that lets us know that we have continued work to do to inform people how to get the the sort of pedagogy and and comfort with the pedagogy such that they can apply it.

Kem Saichaie [00:28:12]:

But some of this, again, real practically, if I was to say in the classroom, you’re saying, like, I come in every time and and I want my students working in groups, but the space is all at sixes and sevens. Empower your students to to take responsibility there. Own the space. It was designed for them. Have them help you reset the space. Talk to them about the value of resetting it for those that will come after you as part of just respecting other folks in the community. And frequently, that is just something that we can help condition students to do in the process and to become partners and and value in the space and knowing why it’s important to have specifics about how the the room is set up.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:28:48]:

And I would just say thank you so much for that, but I would also say, because I can be so absent minded, set a timer, and you gotta leave some time. So if you’ve got 10 minutes between classes, then you’re gonna need to really set extra time for that reset, so you’re not asking them to be late to their next class or whatever. I mean, we have such such tight times to Dave, and leaving yourself a little bit of breathing room. I’m really talking more to myself, but, hopefully, it’s helping someone out there listen, but those just setting the timer so I can remember to do it. And as interesting as we like to think that we are and as as successful as active learning is, there is such a time as sometimes a break can be a nice relief, and just that reset, and and as you said, espousing and affirming those values that we share of that kindness to others is, I mean, just such a great thing. Yeah. Such a great thing. I feel like time timers are such a solution to so many things.

Kem Saichaie [00:29:39]:

Yeah. But even to think about how you design the experience, it’s oftentimes we’re right up to the end because we wanna cover content. Right? We need to get all this content out and assume that it’s heard or listened to or even group work and if part of the is group work, and if part of the design of the room for various reasons, safety being one of them in some cases, do I need to do to do that reset? So maybe I design my lesson plan so it builds in time for this changing. I’ve had colleagues before at other institutions I’ve worked at that just instruct a particular group of students in their groups. They have some folks that are designed to do sort of like the team administration or be the sort of logistics experts. And part of that is come into the room, get the experimental materials or the manipulables or whatever have you, and and have that ready to go in the space, as part of the role formally assigned in class. And I think that there’s some value to doing that, even for yourself, is assigning your time yourself time to to do the room, reset and, you know, experiment with it, see what works. We all know what is when we’re hurried, and and that doesn’t often yield the best outcomes.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:30:50]:

This is the time in the show where we each get to share our recommendations. And the first thing I wanted to say actually, I was reminded of this again from you, Kim, and that is to put whether you use Dave coach or you use name drop, to put that in your email signature. And I was sharing with Kim earlier just how easy he made that for me to be able to have his pronunciation. Little spoiler alert, I still pronounced his name wrong, but that’s my fault because just when I think that I could phonetically spell something better than, you know, what was already there for me on Dave drop, that’s where my failure came in. So that’s no fault of Kim’s. That’s just me, like, I really I really aspire to be a good phonetic speller, and that is something I do abysmally bad, and I was proven that once again. But, anyway, what a great thing to do for other people is to have that information, whether it is in your email signature or I’m just making that readily available in the learning management system. What I was just reminded of it once again, and I I feel like those of us those of us with both hard to pronounce names, but also those of us with easy to pronounce names, I mean, we should just be doing that for all, and it was just a great reminder.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:31:58]:

2nd, speaking of timers, I wrote up my recommendations before we started talking about timers. You can tell that’s on my mind. In my class this semester, we are experimenting with it’s taught on Zoom. It’s a it’s a HyFlex class, as in they are allowed to, come to the Zoom sessions or take the class entirely asynchronously, but one of the things we’re experimenting with is a 25 minute timer. This comes from the work of Sarah Silverman. I attended one of her workshops, and she would set a timer for 25 minutes. We took a 5 minute break every 25 minutes. I had never done that before or experienced that.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:32:34]:

And you talked about, Kim, experiencing these things as the learner. Boy, how powerful is that when you experience it as a learner and go, that was amazing, and how much more amazing when it’s really needed for the kinds of learners that we serve. And so I’m all about it. And in our case, it was so fun because I really suggest I was trying to be intentional and say, if you’re at all able, please get outside. Can you get some natural light on your face? Can you move your body a little bit? And I and I was trying to model that for them. So I said, I’m gonna be running up and down our stairs. And I will tell you, I walk up and down our stairs a lot. And every time I’m, on campus, if I have an opportunity to do the stairs, I will take them.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:33:15]:

I I found out that running stairs, very different than walking stairs. So that was quite an experience for me, but I loved when we came back and said, if you’re willing to share, would any of you be willing to share what you did during your 5 minutes? And one guy did push ups, and, of course, I was running my stairs being the athlete that I am. Another guy said just travel, and I don’t know what travel meant, but okay. So maybe he took a trip to Hawaii and then came back for the in the next 5 minutes, but my, 2 last recommendations, and I wanna hear Kim’s. My two last one is LaCroix sparkling water beach plum. I Dave and I, we drink a lot of LaCroix in this house, and I don’t have a favorite. I can’t say it’s my favorite, but the reason I’m saying beach plum is that if I wanna recommend it again, then I can just pick another of my favorite flavors because LaCroix. And then finally, Trader Joe’s milk chocolate peanut butter cups.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:34:14]:

My friend just got them for a celebration that we had yesterday, and I think of myself as, like, loving Reese’s peanut butter cups. I don’t know. Trader Joe’s might have it on this one. They might actually win my championship of chocolate peanut butter mixtures because it was delicious, and I had some for lunch, and I really shouldn’t be having candy at lunch, but I couldn’t help myself. So they’re almost gone. So the good news is this temptation will not survive in our household. So alright, Kim. What do you have to recommend for us today?

Kem Saichaie [00:34:43]:

Well, a couple of things. Sarah Silverman actually did, her PhD work here at UC Davis and was a member of our center as a teaching assistant consultant. And so I had the pleasure of working with her, as she was finishing her degree, and she did some excellent work with a graduate student and postdoctoral teaching population here at Davis. So I’ve just followed her career after she’s left and just really happy to hear her voice out there and was thrilled to see her come on your podcast, just a a couple of well, I guess, several episodes ago now, but it’s just fantastic to see, her success in that space. So thank you for for recognizing her. And then on the on the spirit, I guess I have one in I don’t know if guests do this, but beach plum, Bonni, because I we’ve had this flavor in our house before, and I thought, how how does one motivate themselves to have beach plum? Are there plums on a beach? And when you’re on a beach, are you motivated to have a plum?

Bonni Stachowiak [00:35:35]:

Have you tried the flavor, though?

Kem Saichaie [00:35:37]:

I have, and I have some questions about it. So that’s what led me to think, like, like, what came up? Like, what inspired this this arrangement? But

Bonni Stachowiak [00:35:46]:

I feel like there’s 2 kinds of LaCroix people. Do you like it in general? Are there there flavors that you like? Okay.

Kem Saichaie [00:35:50]:

Yeah. The sherry limeade, let’s go there.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:35:52]:

Okay.

Kem Saichaie [00:35:52]:

We can do that one for sure.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:35:53]:

Because I have friends who only want the kinds that are totally natural tasting. Like the Pamplemousse, very popular with the natural tasting. The beach plum tastes too, I think, artificial to some of my friends, but haven’t tried the you said cherry?

Kem Saichaie [00:36:08]:

Cherry limeade, I believe what it’s called. They come in the the the thinner, taller cans.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:36:12]:

I have added that to the list. I didn’t even know LaCroix made thinner, taller cans. So you’ve get you’ve expanded my universe.

Kem Saichaie [00:36:18]:

Hey. Happy to help. Two recommendations on the on the topic of exercise. Oftentimes, your podcast, and this will be my second recommendation, is the first that I listen to. I’m an active runner and and I like to hike when I can, but I’ve had to to deal with some injury challenges over the last couple of years. And so I look at this one site called road trail run, dot com, and they do a quite a variety of reviews on various types of running shoes and other equipment, and it’s in multiple languages. And they have reviewers that have multiple skill sets, and age levels, and all kinds of different ways of being diverse. And so I think, that’s really helpful for me as somebody who takes running perhaps way too seriously for my skill level and age, but oftentimes something that I’m interested in because technology has advanced so much more, and my needs as an athlete have changed quite a bit over time because of time.

Kem Saichaie [00:37:09]:

And, they do a really nice job of of having, accessible articles in multiple languages for people of various skill sets. So that would be 1. And and because I do listen to podcasts, when I do run, yours is typically and playlist the slot number 1. But since I go a little bit longer than the the average time of your podcast, the other one that I really like to listen to you is called after hours. It’s from the TED Audio Collective. It’s some Harvard Business School and law professors, Young Mi Moon, Mihir Desi, and Felix Oberholtzer Gui. And they just have a really warm dynamic, and they talk about everything from finance to popular culture to things that are going on in law, and they bring it together in a really nice conversational way that really lifts each other ideas when they’re when they’re talking about things. So that’s a really nice space to combine both, the learning that I’d like to do when I’m exercising.

Kem Saichaie [00:38:02]:

And then finally, as I disclosed to Bonni, previous 2 are are coming on live with a recording here. I used to work in the broadcasting industry and spent quite a bit of time recording audio for for various reasons. And they have some great imaging or bumper music that goes along with it’s very uptempo. It’s very inspiring and will move you from segment to segment. And so I think that that whoever designs that, whether it’s them or their or their production team, it’s really it’s really nice uptempo music that will keep the conversation going and at a high level. So that would be my recommendation. The after hours podcast pairs nicely with, the Teaching in Higher Education podcast.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:38:38]:

Well, that’s certainly, such a honor for you to even say that, and I’m not familiar with this podcast. I have to listen. We you and I are are gonna have this episode come out in March, and then in June, I’ll celebrate 10 years of Teaching in Higher Ed. There’s been a lot that has changed in that time, but also the one thing that hasn’t ever changed is the theme music. And over time, I have many people tell me that they love it, but I Dave had a couple people say that they just absolutely hate it. Hate it. Hate it. Hate it.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:39:08]:

And the thought has come across me of, like, I would love to, you know, maybe just contemplate if it’s time for a change after 10 years, but I’m very intrigued by those podcasts that do the bumper music really well. Yeah. When we aired episode 500, Dave and I were just chatting. We were celebrating together and and singing the

Kem Saichaie [00:39:26]:

kazoo, I think, or something along those lines?

Bonni Stachowiak [00:39:28]:

But one of the things he had commented was that that I told a story about Mike Caulfield and the tooth fairy and all that Mhmm. Yeah. That he wished there had been some bumper music between because I’m telling the story, and then it’s me from the past, and then we’re back. And it was hard to tell from the listener. By the way, Dave had wonderful things to say about the episode. I sound like he’s being critical. We just geek out about this stuff. We’re always like Yeah.

Kem Saichaie [00:39:50]:

Sure. Totally.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:39:51]:

This this would Dave been fun. So I’m kinda the the idea of playing with bumper music is, like, fun. So I’m gonna listen with that in mind. I’m glad you mentioned that as a detail for me to be thinking about, like, how could we maybe use bumper music and teach it in higher ed, you know, after we pass that 10 year milestone.

Kem Saichaie [00:40:05]:

Criticism of the show. I think it it moves quite well. But I think one of the things that I noticed about that, again, having the background that I had, is that when we produce things that are interview format, how do we keep the audience moving through? And one of the things, our content was considerably drier. How do we keep them through the this time and sort of providing some some music to move it along? It was really one of our strategies that we leaned on quite heavily. And so I think that this podcast does a fantastic job of sort of blending together everything and making it sort of coherent and compact. But you won’t hear any criticisms from me on the on the on the podcast and certainly the the sort of celebratory nature of the music that’s on here is something that’s I just really associate with with with you and the podcast now. So I would Dave it some thought, but what you have works really well too.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:40:48]:

Oh, so good to know. But now I even know what to search for if I wanted the interludes in between. It’s called bumper music, and I could Dave

Kem Saichaie [00:40:55]:

Yeah. Or imaging is technically what it’s called. Like, if you if you think about sort of sound effects, a little drops and pings and and things like that. So imaging, I think, is the broader category. And then there’s a type called sort of bumper music that will play into and out of things. And then there’s also, of course, like music beds that you can talk over

Bonni Stachowiak [00:41:13]:

Yeah.

Kem Saichaie [00:41:13]:

The lower audio, typically more mellow sounds, but we’ll we’ll feel that a little bit more. If folks are on different sorts of emotional topics. We’ll we’ll we’ll need some of that, sort of support to help keep it keep it from being from creating the emotion and and creating the environment that that want people to experience. But, yeah, there’s a variety of things out there that you can probably get both commercial free and otherwise.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:41:36]:

So fun. Now all I wanna do is just have you back and just talk about this.

Kem Saichaie [00:41:40]:

Anytime, Bonni. It would be a pleasure and an honor to come back. I’m so thrilled to be able to have the opportunity. And and again, congratulations on all the success this podcast.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:41:48]:

Yeah. One of my favorite favorite podcasts of all time. I’m not gonna say it now because it will be a future recommendation, and I haven’t listened to it yet, but it it just came out as of you and I having this conversation today. And, they do the music beds really, really well. Mhmm. But, boy, there’s so many that do them terribly. That I mean, I I mostly, I know what it’s like to do music beds terribly. And then when you get the the ones who just know how to do it so well, it is so fun to listen to.

Kem Saichaie [00:42:17]:

Yeah.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:42:17]:

Yeah. Absolutely. Thank you so much for today’s conversation. I’m so glad that someone from your university reached out to me and suggested you as a guest. And that very day I reached back, I was just like, I mean, this happened fast because you were I just could tell you’re just such a rich, engaging person to come and have this discussion with us. Thank you so much for your time today Kem Saichaie.

Kem Saichaie [00:42:39]:

Thank you, Bonni.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:42:42]:

Thanks once again to Kem Saichaie for joining me on today’s episode of Teaching in Higher Ed. Today’s episode was produced by me, Bonni Stachowiak. It was edited by the ever talented Andrew Kroeger. Podcast production support was provided by the wonderful Sierra Priest. And thanks to each one of you for listening. If you’ve been listening for a while and you’ve yet to sign up for the weekly update, this is the time. Head over to teachinginhighered.com/subscribe. And in addition to the weekly podcast episodes and show notes, you’ll also receive a weekly update with, yes, those same show notes, but also some other resources that don’t show up in the regular show notes.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:43:29]:

Thanks so much for listening, and I’ll see you next time on Teaching in Higher Ed.

Teaching in Higher Ed transcripts are created using a combination of an automated transcription service and human beings. This text likely will not represent the precise, word-for-word conversation that was had. The accuracy of the transcripts will vary. The authoritative record of the Teaching in Higher Ed podcasts is contained in the audio file.