[00:00:00] Bonni: On today’s episode of Teaching in Higher Ed, episode 303, Clarissa Sorensen-Unruh, and Sean Michael Morris join me for a dialogue about critical pedagogy in STEM.

[00:00:15] Recorded Audio: Produced by Innovate Leaning. Maximizing human potential.

[music]

[00:00:25] Bonni: Hello, and welcome to this episode of Teaching in Higher Ed. I’m Bonni Stachowiak and this is the space where we explore the art and science of being more effective at facilitating learning. We also share ways to improve our personal productivity approaches so we can have more peace in our lives and be even more present for our students.

Today’s episode brings us not one, but two guests. First off, Clarissa Sorensen-Unruh has been a full-time chemistry instructor at Central New Mexico Community College in Albuquerque, New Mexico. She now teaches statistics at Central New Mexico Community College as well. She’s a dual degree graduate student, an MS in statistics, she’s graduating this year, and a PhD in learning sciences in 2022 at the University of New Mexico where she’s also listed as adjunct faculty for the chemistry and chemical biology department.

Her first book, Communicating Chemistry Through Social Media, in which she is both the main editor and a chapter writer was published by ACS Books in 2018, and she contributed a chapter on her experiences with ungrading in the classroom to Susan Blum’s upcoming, which I can’t wait for by the way, upcoming Ungrading: Why Rating Students Undermines Learning (and What to Do Instead). One of the newest members of the teaching and learning in higher education book series by West Virginia University Press.

Sean Michael Morris who has been on the show a number of times previously is back today. He’s a senior instructor of Learning, Design and Technology in the School of Education and Human Development at the University of Colorado at Denver. He’s also the director of Digital Pedagogy Lab and Experiential Exploratory Professional Development Gathering for a Global Digital Pedagogy Community. He is the former director and managing editor for Hybrid Pedagogy, a digital journal of learning, teaching, and technology. He’s been working in digital learning environments since 1999, and he’s committed to engaging audiences in critical inspection of digital technologies and to turning a social justice lens upon education.

Rissa, welcome to Teaching in Higher Ed, and Sean, welcome back to Teaching in Higher Ed.

[00:02:55] Sean: Thank you very much.

[00:02:56] Clarissa: Thank you. It’s great to be here.

[00:02:58] Bonni: I recently wrote a blog post about the exciting news that for the first time, we are taking Teaching in Higher Ed on the road, and it’s to an event called Digital Pedagogy Lab. Today, we’re going to share a little bit about that but mostly going to be talking with Rissa about her view on critical pedagogy in STEM, but before we get there, I want to hear from each of you. Have you ever gone on a road trip that’s particularly memorable to you because it was really good or it was really, really bad? Do either of you have a story on a road trip?

[00:03:35] Clarissa: Of course, yes. I’m going to take an odd take on this. I actually backpacked through Europe when I was 23 with my wife, and that was maybe a road trip. It was a rail trip and it was awesome. Awesome on every level, but I remember I have a very set need to make sure that we have a place to stay and everything’s set up. I remember that we were sitting in the train station in Copenhagen waiting to get on a train for Amsterdam. We were three hours early and we missed the train. That was the only time that I have officially freaked out and my wife was awesome. She was just like, “Oh, I remember that the travel people, national travel ‘Hey, we’ll get you some things in Copenhagen,’ so let’s go see them.” Had the best experience that night in Copenhagen. [laughs] I guess that’s my story for being on the road.

[00:04:40] Sean: That was pretty cool. Mine actually has to do with your state, Rissa. When I was younger, I drove down– I was going to go camping in a national forest that’s really far south in New Mexico. Drove down there, drove to where I was going to camp and thought, “No, I don’t want to camp.” and so I had to drive back to Denver. I was coming from Denver and I tried to drive back to Denver but I couldn’t make it all the way so I stopped in Albuquerque. I’ve never been in Albuquerque, found the worst possible hotel on the night of the Oscars, and sat in this terrible, terrible hotel that was so horrible I slept on top of the covers because I didn’t want to get underneath. I didn’t even like pull them back.

That’s been my experience of Albuquerque. I would love having a different experience in Albuquerque at some point but that’s nicer to Albuquerque. That was probably the opposite of your very good wonderful experience and my misery. Oh, my gosh. Where have I ended up?

[00:05:38] Clarissa: I invite you to Albuquerque any time you’d like to come, Sean. We will make it work, and give you a better experience.

[00:05:43] Sean: Okay.

[00:05:45] Bonni: We didn’t travel very much when I was growing up but we did often go to a desert here in– I think it’s California. Yes, it’s California, called Joshua Tree. [laughter] How far did we drive to get there? My grandfather used to have property near the desert and I can recall my dad, he really like to listen to music and so I’d hear certain songs today and still feel like we’re driving out to the desert, including some songs by Steely Dan that come up for me in terms of those memories and so I just think about how much we associate music with memories.

When I think about going on a road trip, I think about just how music is so intertwined with it in my mind and that certain songs remind me of certain trips and– That’s my little road trip. I’m excited we’ll be taking our kids there. That’s kind of like we sandwich the vacation with something like this. In case you can’t tell, I don’t take vacations very well, I really enjoy– I’m enjoying the thought of how challenging this will be for me to try something new. I’m going to try recording there live for the first time. Actually, I’m thinking maybe I’m going to try to record live beforehand as a test, but it’ll be the first time doing it live on the road so to speak. Let’s not try to do everything new all at once.

I always think it’s so healthy for our children to get to see us in capacities like that.

I wanted to say one thing actually before we kind of get into the meat of our interview and that is people might remember that my book just recently came out and I got to hold in my hands two night ago for the fist time as we’re recording this, and I mentioned in an email to Sean that he and Jessie and Maja show up in the acknowledgements part of it and I was just reflecting on how much this community of people through Hybrid Pedagogy, through Digital Pedagogy Lab, just how much I’ve been able to learn, and Rissa, that’s why I was excited to get a chance to meet you. I feel a little bit like Sean is introducing me to you today, and just that that continues to expand just our ability to work in solidarity, to really be able to serve learners from all over the world really well. Sean, why don’t I pass it to you to sort of bring Rissa into the conversation. Maybe talk a little bit about how the two of you met and then start out with some questions.

[00:08:00] Sean: Sure. We were actually just reflecting on how we met. So many of the people that I meet, I meet sort of on Twitter. I meet randomly, I happen to see a tweet, I happen to have been linked to their blog post, and then suddenly, I’m following them. That’s actually how I met … that’s how I met …  that’s how I met Rissa. The idea of meeting, of course, is different. You meet them online, you meet them on Twitter, you meet them through personal network or whatever you kind of like ricochet around inside of a network.

It is so fascinating because I’ve met people online and had really meaningful conversations with them in spaces where I can’t see their face and then met them in person and not recognize them at all. Literally walked by them having no idea that that was that person. It’s interesting because the position I hold for … as director, people recognized my face. They come up to me and they’re like, “Hi.” and I’m like, “Oh, gosh. Who are you?” Then as soon they tell me either their Twitter handle or their name, I get it. It’s in there because I meet a lot of people through their emails to me and that sort of thing, but it’s really fascinating. I actually think this kind of gets around to the ideas of, especially critical digital pedagogy which we work a lot with the Digital Pedagogy Lab and at Hybrid Pedagogy in sort of all throughout– My work is around that because critical pedagogy sort of insists on a human connection in teaching and learning.

It’s really amazing the people that you can meet in these virtual situations and then begin to feel really close with them. That really happened with Rissa. The first time that I– It’s funny because you want to say met Rissa, but actually it’s sort of more like noticed because Rissa was already online, we were already probably following each other, but it was the first time that it sort of like called out to me that I should pay attention to this person or she stood out in a certain way. When she applied to be a fellow at Digital Pedagogy Lab, and she knew she couldn’t come that year and so instead she wrote a blog post as her application. It answered all the questions in the application and it was this really lovely, wonderful blog post about critical pedagogy and all these sorts of things that DPL is all about.

I think what really stood out for me was that she’s coming from a STEM field and we rarely have anybody writing about critical pedagogy or critical digital pedagogy from STEM fields. In fact most of the time I’ve been sort of confronted by people in STEM saying, “Well critical pedagogy can’t work because facts are facts and truths are truths and we just have to know these things,” and I don’t know what to say back to that because facts are facts. [laughs]

I was really intrigued by, “Oh, this is this person who’s doing wonderful work in critical pedagogy in STEM,” and so I was really interested in that and more. I think that’s actually one of the reasons why I hoped we could get together in this conversation because I think there’s a lot of questions I have for you.

[00:11:05] Bonni: Thank you for that, that’s awesome. I’m so glad that we’re having this conversation because like you too, Sean, I get that concern a lot from people and not specifically just around critical digital pedagogy but all sorts of aspects of teaching comes about that that wouldn’t work in my field and I feel so grateful for so many of these STEM people that have come on the podcast in the past and invested their time.

I still I’m so clumsy with examples and literally trying to, it’s like, “Oh, my son is really into rocks right now and the other day he asked me what my favorite–” I was just like, “I can’t even keep up with our eight-year-old son on this talk. How am I supposed to deal with people who have been studying this stuff for decades?” You are here with us today, Rissa. Perhaps we can start out with where you first heard about that such a thing as critical digital pedagogy even existed. Where did you first bring that into your own awareness, in your own discipline, in your own teaching?

[00:12:05] Rissa: Wow, that’s a big question because I tend to think about active learning and critical pedagogy has a lot of overlap. At least it’s a different way of thinking about how you want to present the material and what kinds of boundaries your placing around particularly oppressed groups. The idea of not talking at a class was something that I really came from in terms of active learning first.

It really goes back to about 2009. I had been teaching for seven years and was kind of bored. I was teaching myself, a lot of the time. I was very conversational and I was already doing the, I’ll present one example of a problem and then y’all in my class will do a couple of practice problems together in diodes or whatever. I was kind of bored with the whole notion of talking at a class anymore. So, I was really interested in different ways of reaching my students.

In fact, I got pretty unhappy with my own thoughts about teaching. I had always hang my pedagogy on this idea of critical thinking that I was building critical thinking skills in my students which I thought were generalizable and from the research, we know that that’s probably not true. The idea there was that I had hang on my pedagogy on this idea and that I had no way to assess that well or to really connect with folks in a way that made me feel like we’re building more than just a relationship. We’re actually building some learning skills that you can carry over for your future.

That realization and reflection on my own pedagogy and what I was doing, really led tot several things. One was working at UNM at the University of New Mexico to build bridges between our departments but that also was a moment in learning how to do active learning, so we did muddy points, we did short reading courses beforehand and we had a whole active learning idea from that. That was in 2012. It also resulted in me going back to school. I actually went back to graduate school, studying in 2014 because of the assessment piece that I felt like I didn’t assess students as well as I would like to and I didn’t know how to make that work. So, I went back to really find out more about that.

From the beginning, there was this underlying idea of this is our relationship that we’re building. I would like to build this relationship in a way that helps you as a student because really you’re the one who has to learn the material not me, I kind of already know it or at least I will after I’ve done process a couple of times. I felt like that piece of really being emergent and being thoughtful about what the actual context of each student and what they’re going through, what their narrative is, is really came to fruition probably when I started being active on Twitter.

… was instrumental in hitting me over the head virtually, of course, and saying, “Some of the things you’re doing probably are not the best things you could possibly do.” My peer line grew and several folks contributed to that. I could go through a laundry list of folks about what that looks like, and it’s just grown since. So, applying to that first digital pedagogy fellowship even though I couldn’t do it, it was really, I think that was the idea.

Someone suggested that to me. It was either … or it was someone– Someone said that you should appy for this fellowship and I was like, “Well, I can’t because I don’t have the time. I have another conference at the exact same time, so how about I blog about it.?” Maybe Laura Giorgio, I don’t know. It was some combination of folks. We were like, “Okay,” and so I blogged about it and that was the beginning of the end.

[laughter]

[00:16:36] Sean: Because now it’s just downhill from here, right?

[00:16:38] Rissa: Just like, “No, no, there’s no going back at this point.”

[00:16:43] Sean: I recently read an article, it’s actually not a recent article but i only read it recently, that sort of had a critique about critical pedagogy and that was that Paul Ferry who was the grandfather of critical pedagogy or whatever, seemed to think that his way was the only way and that he was right about these types of things. I’ve never felt that way about critical pedagogy.

I’ve always thought the critical pedagogy itself was very flexible and has to be able to grow and change with the times and with technology and with audiences and our new awareness of justice and social justice and that sort of thing. I’d be really curious for you because you’ve said active learning and the relationship piece, I’d be curious how you define, especially within the STEM context, how do you define critical pedagogy? What do you think critical pedagogy is?

[00:17:29] Rissa: It’s really interesting that you ask that because my mom is a retired Methodist minister, so she has a Master’s of Divinity and she went back to school to get that at 45. I was aware, I was present in some of her classes, So, when I first read Paulo Freire, I was trying to describe this to my mom and I was like, “It’s liberation theology except instead of churches, you have schools,” and she was like, “Oh, yes, perfect,” because she was a big fan, and that was actually in the same kind of area at the same time that Paulo Freire was doing this, and so it makes sense in lots of ways.

When I think about critical pedagogy, my definition has actually changed over the last four years because I’m trying to be as open to the possibilities as possible but what I really liked recently is I read an article on Crystallized Identity which is not what– You think it means one thing, it doesn’t mean that. Crystallized Identity by Tracy and Tretheway and it’s a 2005 article, and I can send it to you guys, is really interesting because basically it’s talking about identity. Instead of doing these big self versus real self dichotomy stuff, it is multi-faceted, emergent, ongoing understanding of who you are as a person.

I think of actually critical pedagogy like that. It has lots of facets, it has lots of different pieces. Crystals are actually developed differently. They’re growing at all times but they actually have different structures underlying them. I think that idea of how you put it together is different but the pieces that we have in common are these pieces of care for students, of wanting to hear where they are and recognizing that learning is really their journey and we can journey together and I can be part of that.

The journey itself, I’m kind of a bystander, I want to be with you for this part of the path but the whole path is yours. It doesn’t really matter which way you get up the mountain, it matters that you got up the mountain. In terms of how that manifests for different groups really based on the instructor, the context, what it looks like for us, but the idea of … 

of transforming society by paying attention to oppressed groups, and by making sure that we’re giving students maximum agency and that there’s a social justice piece to the class, I think is the important stuff.

[00:20:24] Sean: You teach chemistry, right?

[00:20:27] Rissa: I teach chemistry and statistics.

[00:20:29] Sean: Statistics. Well, I can actually see statistics having a social justice side of it, certainly within sociology. I’d be really curious, where do the ideas of Paulo Freire, Bell Hooks, Henry Giroux, all those folks, how do they fit into teaching chemistry?

[00:20:47] Rissa: Well, let’s go to two tracks on this. I’m going to try to summarize this real quick. I’m always really struck, and this is going to be part of my recommendations, by Jesse Stommel article, The Human Side of Teaching in the AUP, which was released yesterday. The phrase or the sentence that stuck out for me is that teaching is a radical act and it is. It’s a radical act. It is a radical act because it’s very human and it’s a radical act because it is transformative and because we have the possibility of really helping folks along their learning journey.

For me, you can take this in two ways. What kind of skills and what kind of learning techniques? What kind of things am I trying to help my students build in order to be able to take it out of my class? For me, it’s always been a matter of, “Well, you may be able to be successful in my class, but you may get t to a class where you don’t have an instructor who cares,” and that unfortunately sometimes happens in STEM. It happens everywhere, but it happens in STEM so, “How are you going to succeed in that class?” What skills am I building that will help you get there?

A lot of those skills come from the ideas of critical pedagogy. How are we going to be able to form communication? How are we going to be able to really think about what our learning journey looks like and how to assess that? How are we going to figure out the resources that we need to be able to really get this material and to feel relationships with other people in our classes? Some of that is based off of what I call the hidden goals of our classes. The hidden learning objectives. The things we would never write down because we can’t measure them easily but, of course, we’re going to have as part of our class.

Then the other piece of that is really talking about how we phrase the questions in the content. Speaking about chemistry, you said, Sean, where is social justice in chemistry and I say, as a reply, where is social justice not in chemistry? We could have a whole conversation about the Australia bushfires and after the fires are done, how are we going to be able to test the soils? How are we going to be able to figure out pH, all of those pieces so that they can repopulate with plant life and wildlife that is indigenous to the area as opposed to invasive species? That’s just one question that we could talk about in terms of chemistry, making sure that we talk about female chemists who have come along and have been really critical to the development of our models and theories, who aren’t talked about as much as they should be. Making sure that those pieces are there.

In terms of a specific example. In my statistics class, I made a data set because I was like, “Hey, why not?” Because I wanted them to analyze it. In the gender column, I put male, female or other. I actually had two transgender students in that class, who were like, “The fact that you had an other category was really important to us. It was really fundamental to feeling accepted in this.” That was one set of questions, so where can we put this?

[00:24:37] Sean: I really like that example. It’s such a small effort just to put the other in there that allows for more people to participate or feel like they’re invited in. I think that’s really important. You’re going to be teaching at Digital Pedagogy Lab-

[00:24:53] Rissa: I am.

[00:24:53] Sean: -in 2020. You’re teaching a course on STEM-H and critical digital pedagogy or something. I forget the exact title, which I should know.

[00:25:02] Rissa: [laughs] It’s close enough. It’s fine.

[00:25:06] Sean: A lot of critical pedagogy feels very second order. It’s thinking about thinking. It’s thinking about learning. You’re doing learning, but you’re also thinking about the learning. That’s part of what is challenging for some people because they’re like, “Well, how do I incorporate that into my curriculum …  get done?” That’s a big critique from STEM about critical pedagogy. It’s like, “Well, they need to know … things before they move on to the next thing.” When you’re teaching a DPL, you will have people in your room who want best practices who want how do I do this in my room? One of the things you just said including the other, like, that’s a very great example, maybe I’m going to put you on the spot here, but I’d be curious, how are you going to teach this thing to other STEM people who are curious, but may not understand the application? I’d be curious to see, what do you have in mind for that course in the subject?

[00:26:00] Rissa: We’ve talked a lot about this. One of the things that I really love about the DPL and teaching at the DPL ,I think I said this in a previous virtually connecting moment, but it allows me to exist in the playground of my mind. I get to play with ideas and structures and ways of thinking that I don’t normally get to play in. For me, we currently have themes for each day. We have an open day. We have a social justice day. We have even an active learning day because that may be where some folks are starting. That’s going to be at the beginning. We have themes for the day. We’re going to have some readings for the day.

Really, our goal is, in many ways, model the behavior, give folks a sense of that this can be done differently so we can have a conversation that is emergent and that is based off of what you’re interested in, and based off of questions that you have, and that you’re bringing to the table. Then say, “Our students are no different than this. They have questions about what the material is and how they want to learn it.” Being open to those ideas, and trying to incorporate them into our classes as much as we possibly can. There’s 40 different ways to cover quantum mechanics and chemistry. Could we come up with some way that maybe thinks about how the students want to learn it?

That, to me, is the basis of really getting folks to have a paradigm shift. This is essentially talking about, what is the paradigm shift that we need to go through? It’s a reflective journey that you have to embark on, to be able to figure out how you’re going to make this happen for you in the context of how you do things and what the context of your classes look like. So I think a lot of our class is going to be about reflection, and really trying to figure out what facets of that critical pedagogy, you can incorporate and feel like, “At least this is a step in whatever direction I want to go. I’m here for a reason. I’m not here to necessarily– ” I don’t think anyone’s going to attend a DPL just to be belligerent. [crosstalk] … 

[laughter]

[00:28:35] Rissa: I think that there’s certainly a piece of, “You’re here for a reason. Let’s figure out what that reason looks like for you and let’s figure out how to help you incorporate that into your own pedagogy” I have chemistry and math-ish. I’m in statistics. It’s not quite calculus, but we can work with it. Then Anna’s going to bring the Biology side, as well and we both teach a lot of health science folks. Working within the LMS that’s something that she’s particularly good at and finding ways to have maximum student agency within the LMS. I’m really good with kicking the LMS to the side. … here’s all these other ways of thinking about how to reach folks digitally and in person.

[00:29:27] Bonni: You’ve both given us so much to think about, as you always do. One of the themes that I hear coming out of this, not the only theme, but one theme that I’ll just wrap this up with is, this really big transition between thinking about teaching as covering material, and of course, in the STEM fields that really shows up, “I’ve got to cover cover this stuff,” to I’m hearing you talk about, reigniting our students imagination, and their curiosity. That’s a real fundamental shift that I don’t know I’m ever going to have fully achieved but I just see so many ways in which it comes back to that.

Before we get to the recommendations segment today, I just wanted to take a moment to thank today’s sponsor, and that is TextExpander. What TextExpander lets you do is to save typing and boost your productivity. You create, and it’s very easy by the way, you create what are called snippets. These are just a few characters on your keyboard that you type. As soon as you press space, they expand into either something you can’t remember, like, for me, it’s always my work phone number or something that you just don’t feel like typing every time.

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Well, we’re going to wrap up this part of our conversation and head on over to the recommendations segment. I have two quick recommendations that I’m looking forward to hearing what you have to share. First off, there was a post by Jessie Stommel about Ungrading: Eight Frequently Asked Questions and he has written quite a bit about this but I just thought, “This one’s definitely worth a read.” I’m going to encourage people to go over there and have a read.

Then the second one is go to the Digital Pedagogy Lab website, and I’ve linked it out in the show notes and go check it out. See if it fits in your schedule for the summer. There’s going to be a much larger group than has been able to be accommodated in the past. How many classes, Sean, are going on?

[00:32:27] Sean: We’ve got 16 classes, we’re expecting about 250 people.

[00:32:31] Bonni: Go check it out and see if it’ll fit in your schedule. The classes are just amazing. I am super excited about getting to be there and getting to learn from so many just phenomenal educators. Go check it out. Rissa, I’m going to pass it over to you for your recommendations.

[00:32:48] Rissa: My recommendations are– One is a philosophical one, which is I have a lot of folks in STEM who are like, “Well, what if it doesn’t work?” Remember that we’re experimental folks. We are experimental by nature, and so to be experimental in the classroom is something that I think we can all accomplish. Then the recommended readings, Terry McGuinn, in Small Pond Science, wrote a really interesting blog about our critical thinking skills generalized, are those able to be generalized? I’m actually going to write a response blog, but that was a really interesting blog in the article that he attaches by Willingham is really good. Then the other one I was going to recommend was, of course, the one I’ve already mentioned, which is Justine Stommel’s AEP blog. No, it’s an article in the academy and is really excellent in terms of talking about the human side of teaching.

[00:33:50] Bonni: Sean, what do you have to recommend today?

[00:33:52] Sean: Well, I feel bad because I don’t have anything from Jessie Stommel to recommend.

[laughter]

[00:33:56] Bonni: I was totally going to make a joke, but I’m like, “Don’t do it. Don’t do it.”

[laughter]

[You better. We’ve got another one.

[00:34:05] Sean: That’s because … and Holly, I feel really bad that I have nothing to … 

[laughter]

[00:34:15] Rissa: We already covered it. That’s what we [crosstalk] We covered it.

[00:34:17] Sean: Yes, you covered it. His two most recent pieces, they’re amazing.

[00:34:21] Rissa: You don’t have to worry about it.

[00:34:22] Sean: Exactly. I have three book recommendations. Actually, I’m working my way through three different books right now. They’re really different. They’re not related to each other at all. The first one is called Freiries Education for Critical Consciousness, which is really great. It’s a little dryer than some of his work, but it gets to some of the really foundational ways he’s thinking, frames his view of the world in a way that I haven’t actually heard before. Another one is by an author named BJ Fogg with two G’s. It’s called Tiny Habits. It’s about approaching making change in your life through tiny little changes. I’m reading it a little bit at a time.

[laughter]

Then the other one is, because my true self is a fantasy reader, so I read a lot of fantasy. It makes me really happy. I’ve found this book called The Ruin Of Kings by Jen Lyons, which is an amazing fantasy book, really all these great perspectives happening in it and really smart. Those are my three recommendations.

[00:35:27] Bonni: Thanks to both of you for joining me for today’s episode. I cannot wait until I get to hug both of you.

[laughter]

and spend some time in person. You can only digitally hug on Twitter. I’m just really looking forward to connecting and just all the stuff that’s going to happen, the stuff that has been planned and then all the stuff that those expert facilitators are going to allow to emerge in the moment. What a wonderful combination.

[00:35:54] Sean: Yes, I think it will be amazing. It’s going to be so great.

[music]

[00:36:00] Bonni: Thanks so much to Rissa and to Sean, for joining me for today’s episode of Teaching in Higher Ed. If you would like to see the show notes for today’s episodes and all the links that were mentioned and the recommendations, head on over to teachinginhighered.com/303. They also, of course, show up in your podcast player so you can access them there. They can show up in your email inbox if you would like to subscribe to the weekly update at teachinginhighered.com/subscribe. Thank you for listening to today’s episode and to being a part of the Teaching in Higher Ed community.

If you have yet to recommend the show on your favorite podcast app, I’d love it if you would recommend it to others via that platform so we can continue to grow the Teaching in Higher Ed community. Thanks so much for listening and I hope to see some of you at Digital Pedagogy Lab 2020.

[music]

[00:36:55] [END OF AUDIO]

The transcript of this episode has been made possible through a financial contribution by the Association of College and University Educators (ACUE). ACUE is on a mission to ensure student success through quality instruction. In partnership with institutions of higher education nationwide, ACUE supports and credentials faculty members in the use of evidence-based teaching practices that drive student engagement, retention, and learning.  

Teaching in Higher Ed transcripts are created using a combination of an automated transcription service and human beings. This text likely will not represent the precise, word-for-word conversation that was had. The accuracy of the transcripts will vary. The authoritative record of the Teaching in Higher Ed podcasts is contained in the audio file.