Bonni Stachowiak [00:00:00]:

Today on episode number 582 of the Teaching in Higher Ed podcast Counterstory Pedagogy with Adriana Aldana. Production Credit: Produced by Innovate Learning, Maximizing Human Potential welcome to this episode of Teaching in Higher Ed. I’m Bonni Stachowiak and this is the space where we explore the art of and science of being more effective at facilitating learning. We also share ways to improve our productivity approaches so we can have more peace in our lives and be even more present for our students. I’m grateful today to be welcoming to the show Adriana Aldana. She’s an Associate professor of Social Work at California State University, Dominguez Hills. She earned her doctorate it through the Joint Doctoral Program in Social Work and Developmental Psychology at the University of Michigan. As a community based practitioner and developmental psychologist, Adriana focuses on youth sociopolitical empowerment. Her research explores how participatory action research and multicultural organizing models can help young people build the skills and confidence to challenge systemic inequities.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:01:31]:

She’s worked alongside youth and educators to co create social justice workshops, lead community dialogue programs, and design anti racist training tools that center inclusion, identity and collective action. When she’s not teaching or collaborating on community projects, Adriana is a proud dog mom to Nina, her spirited mini schnauzer. Adriana, welcome to Teaching in Higher Ed.

Adriana Aldana [00:01:59]:

Thank you so much for having me. I’m delighted to be in this conversation with you.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:02:03]:

I am excited for us to talk about counter story pedagogy, but I feel a little bit like before we do we need to talk about the origins and so much of the origins of the innovative things that we do and the ways we bring our values into our teaching and our learning. They start with things that didn’t quite go as we planned. Would you tell us about a time when an assignment that you had didn’t quite go the way that you hoped it would?

Adriana Aldana [00:02:34]:

Yeah, I have several but one that just came to mind because it’s been so powerful to make adjustments to it over time. There’s this unit on REST as a form of resistance and I teach in social work. One of our ethical obligations as social workers is to engage in self care to avoid burnout, compassion fatigue. I was in the process of revamping my syllabus and my critical race studies course and came across Trisha Hershey’s work around REST as reparations and REST as a form of resistance to white supremacy. I decided that in addition to readings and discussions in class that I would invite students to engage in any form of Self care or rest or leisure activities and then come back to class to talk about what did that feel like? Did any challenges surface for you as you’re trying to engage in rest? The first year that I did that, students were like, we didn’t do it. We didn’t do the self care. Then the conversation in class was like, what were some of the barriers to you engaging in self care? It became really clear to me that there were structural barriers for them. One, in addition to just living in a capitalist world where it’s like even my full time student, traditional students are often still working part time, sometimes full time while going to school as well.

Adriana Aldana [00:04:18]:

Not only are they in classes and then doing 20 hours of internship, but many of them are also workers. And then many of them are, are parents. Some of them are caregivers to their parents. And so there was just, they were like, we don’t have time, so we didn’t do this right. And so I reflected to myself and said, if this is a unit that really matters to our curriculum. And I’m trying to establish this orientation to self care and rest beyond the let me get my nails done or a facial done, right, really disrupting this internalization that rest and, and self care is something that we do when we have time. I built in time for it in class. So the following year and subsequent years, what I’ve done is that the week before the unit on self care where we’re doing the readings when we’re supposed to have those conversations, I do a preview of next week.

Adriana Aldana [00:05:16]:

And so we start to have a conversation about what’s the role of self care in social work practice, but also in anti racism. Why do we take care of ourselves? Why is taking care of ourselves a form of resistance within capitalist society? And so at the end of that discussion, I say next week we have readings and podcasts around this topic. You’re required to do those. But instead of coming to class, I want you to spend one hour of just time for yourself. Our class meets for 2 hours and 45 minutes. These are graduate students. So I say whatever you decide to do after that one hour, that’s on you. If you want to extend your self care, please do that.

Adriana Aldana [00:05:57]:

But just I’m asking you protect one hour for that. And it’s been phenomenal. So one of the things that I have them do now is to within 48 hours do a video post reflection that links what they were experiencing and connected to the readings. And a lot of things that are surfacing is how much guilt they feel. Taking time even when they’ve been given permission as an assignment to take care of themselves. And so I think that that really illustrates right the ways in that we are socialized into these roles that minimize how important it is for us to be human beings, to have life beyond work or productivity or being in service.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:06:43]:

Of others so much. What I want to draw out from your story before actually talking to you about the main topic for the day is just the continual benefit to reflecting on the best use of any scheduled time in our classes. I some years ago went from we we have the way that we approach hybrid learning instead of how some universities might do that where you have I’m in a classroom while I’m also having people join on Zoom. And I also have a fully functioning asynchronous course where our philosophy is you pick the best two of the three and you really do well on the two of the three. So for a while now I’ve been doing there are zoom scheduled sessions that students can come to or if their schedule does not allow for that, they There’s a fully functioning asynchronous thing underpinning that. But it took me so long to figure out that you just focus on the asynchronous what is it that would best help to facilitate this particular skill? Or is it knowledge? Or is it self reflection? What is it that we’re trying to do? And then it makes scheduling the actual Zoom sessions, it’s just we’re doing those things so we’re doing the rest or we’re doing the reflecting or we’re doing the gamified flashcards thing because we’re trying to learn some new vocabulary and have fun while doing it, et cetera. It really makes our classes so much more powerful because they’re so much more empathetic too for the kinds of situations that so many of our students find themselves in today.

Adriana Aldana [00:08:12]:

No, definitely. I think that that was key moment for me as an instructor to envision and think about the classroom in terms of time and space and how to maximize learning beyond what was in the textbook or what was in the assigned readings. I think I keep going back to that as an example of I could have easily not have given them that because we have so much to cover and class time is precious. But I now, having done it for a few years, giving them that time has enriched our conversation. And then many of them continue to think through that line of rest as resistance or thinking about ways to divest from capitalism in their final projects or some of their advocacy work which has been really lovely to see as well.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:09:08]:

So, speaking of covering the course content, let’s cover the podcast content. Tell us about counter stories pedagogy.

Adriana Aldana [00:09:17]:

Yeah, I mean, I would love to say that I was intentional about this book, but it was a book that revealed itself to me in many ways. It was 2020, spring of 2020, I was teaching a social justice in social work class. And prior to that, if I can rewind a little bit, I had been thinking about the course 2018, 2019, preparing for it. And I was reading Radical Letters of Love and Dissent in Dangerous Times, which is edited by Caro de Robertis. And I was reading that book myself after the first Trump administration, feeling a little, like, distressed about how do I inspire hope? How do I build critical consciousness in a way that motivates people to keep at it? I think I’ve always been really adept at helping my students think critically about the world around them. But with the social, political climate that we’ve been, I would say, in the last decade, more so now than before, in my experience in the classroom at least, students were just leaving my classroom despondent. And so I was thinking about this anthology and thinking, okay, how could I replicate something like this in class? So let me. You know, I had a final assignment in the class.

Adriana Aldana [00:10:48]:

It was more like just a reflection of our learning. And I said, okay, I’m going to flip this reflection essay and make it a letter. They can write a letter to whoever they want as long as it speaks to some of the themes and the topics that we’ve been discussing in class. With this eye towards inspiring whoever we’re addressing these letters to with a sense of belonging, love, or hope. I implemented the assignment. In spring of 2020, the pandemic happens. Our university goes to remote alternative instruction. So we went from meeting in person to abruptly being online.

Adriana Aldana [00:11:32]:

And this was graduating students, so they were going to be graduating with their MSWs, and we didn’t have a graduation. So I was feeling really bad for them. And so I told myself, well, what if I take the letters that they wrote? Because we had had a really powerful experience reading and sharing those letters in class. And I can talk about that later. And so as I was compiling the book, I made a mock cover and everything, and I shared it with them as a graduating parting gift, memento of our class time. Spring of 2021 comes around, and we were still working remote. We were still not necessarily having our usual commencement ceremony. And so I decided, let me do this again.

Adriana Aldana [00:12:21]:

I’ll redo the book. With the letters. Now, this time I was teaching a youth empowerment class rather than the social justice class. But the assignment was very similar, except that this time, instead of writing a letter to anyone, they were writing a letter to youth and youth, broadly defined, so they could write a letter to their younger self. They could write to a young person or young people who they were in direct contact with, or they could write to future generations or current generations of youth. So very broad definition of youth. So in 2021, as I’m creating this memento faux book for them, it really dawned on me that other people should read this because it’s really valuable. These stories are really powerful and it should be shared with others.

Adriana Aldana [00:13:13]:

And so I realized then that I was going to try to see if I can have this be an edited book of student letters in some way. And so I reached out to Peter Felton, the Center for Engaged Learning, to say, hey. And I shared the two books that I had created for my students. I’m like, I have these student letters. Can we publish it? And they were really encouraging and said, please write a proposal. Think about not just the student writings, but the pedagogy behind it so that we can really offer this for other educators who might be interested in something similar. That was really the origins. It was my way of showing gratitude to my students and trying to say, I’m sorry you don’t get a graduation, but here’s what you all did in this classroom.

Adriana Aldana [00:14:04]:

Then I was really excited to be able to move that forward with this publication. Yeah.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:14:10]:

Tell me, what does letter writing as a form do that perhaps more traditional papers or other kinds of assignments aren’t able to quite capture in the same way?

Adriana Aldana [00:14:24]:

Yeah. So with social work, we do do a lot of reflective writing, but students find it really difficult, especially when it is reflecting on their own values or having to express their tacit knowledge and how they’re applying that in their practice. So we have the reflective writing piece. And then they also sometimes feel very disconnected from kind of traditional academic research related writing. I feel with letter writing, it gives them, and I encourage them to loosen up a little bit with what they think it is that I, as an instructor, I, as an academic, is expecting them to write about or how to write. I find myself that with other assignments, students are performing to some degree performing what a student or scholar should be saying in their writing. And for some reason, the letter format really breaks that down a little bit in a way that their voice really comes through in ways that I don’t see in other Forms of writing.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:15:40]:

I keep thinking about the timing and I of course read the whole book in preparation to get to talk to you today. I read it without really, if you do have the details in there, as far as what years things were, that wasn’t what was standing out to me. What was standing out to me was your voice as an editor, as an educator, and then so many beautiful voices. Such a rich tapestry of powerful, transformative stories. All this to say you telling me the story today feels a little bit different because of course I know what was happening during these dates and all of the graduations lost and all of the opportunities to celebrate. And then what I can’t help but do in my mind is think about, okay, November 2022. Would of course don’t mention anywhere in your timeline because it sounds like it was much more in process by them. The advent of chat based large language models.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:16:40]:

And now I’m wondering when this is course only going to be hypothetical, but what, what does it do to the letter writing? If yes, you could have certainly I could go up there right now. We, you know, I could do it on the site. I could still be talking to you and I could be saying write a letter to my younger self. But so there’s a comb combination of. Of what letter writing does for me as a learner, combined with the possibility that it might be shared to a real or imaginary audience. What. To what extent were you thinking about that back then or even now, as you’re giving advice to your future self, how you might want to use the same pedagogical approach? What do things look like both with the ease with which these types of reflective pieces can be written. Certainly written.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:17:38]:

Maybe people would question my choice of word produced, maybe. Right. Algorithmically produced combined with that real or imagined audience.

Adriana Aldana [00:17:51]:

Yeah, well, prior to the publication, the real audience was myself as their instructor. But prior to them drafting their letters, they knew that they were going to come to the last class session and that they would be reading their letters to their peers. I think that in itself is a very powerful pedagogical approach that can’t be reproduced by AI algorithms. But to it’ll be interesting to navigate in the near future, in the now anything related to writing. But here I think another reference writing that really has inspired not just this book, but even my previous work. I’m teaching critical race theory, but I’m also not only talking about counter narratives or counter stories as the methodological ways that we theorize what’s happening in the world. So one of those books that was really beneficial for me to read for my instruction. But then also in the framing of this book was Aja Martinez, the Rhetoric and Writing of Critical Race Theory.

Adriana Aldana [00:19:13]:

In addition to providing insights about teaching rhetoric and composition, in that book, Martinez asserts that people of color, people from marginalized communities, have the right to theorize from their lived experiences. And I think one of the things that I’ve done to date that I am hoping to elevate, highlight, underscore to my students who might feel the urge and want to use AI to do the writing, to produce content. Is that right? That right to be able to express and articulate your understanding of the world from your lived experience? Yes, you can prompt AI to do some of that. But AI is filled with biases, linguistic biases, cultural biases. That’s part of what I teach, not about AI, but in general about these biases and epistemology and what we know, who has the authority to know and produce knowledge. And so I’m hoping that highlighting some of that, coupled with letter writing as this really personal way to express yourself hopefully mitigates the desire, want, or the pressure even. It goes back to what I was saying earlier, that sometimes I think students might feel like they need to perform writing in a certain way. One of the things that I do with all of my assignments, and this one especially, is to say, I want to hear your voice.

Adriana Aldana [00:20:48]:

And you’re going to be sharing your perspective, your lived experience with your peers. Going back to your other question about the intended or imaginary audience. When we’re in the classroom and I’m prepping them for, not only are you going to write this letter, but you’re going to be reading it with each other. I tell them, practice reading it out loud to yourself or with other people at least once before coming to class. Because there is this powerful thing that happens when we are expressing our words. Even if we thought these things many times or we’ve written about them in different ways, there’s something about the reading and the witnessing of someone that just creates this really powerful, reflective, collective feeling. Because often they’re writing about how real world issues are impacting them and the people that they love. And so, again, that piece I don’t think can be reproduced.

Adriana Aldana [00:21:51]:

And so for me, the challenge will be to say, that’s a really powerful. That’s what we’re aiming for. So let’s try not to. Or if you do, use it to brainstorm, but not to take over your voice.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:22:02]:

I taught for just under 10 years in a doctoral program, and throughout that time, three or four times we produced a open textbook and they got to pick the topic. They got to kind of. They would do it the write the chapters in groups. But anyway, so I, So I’ve done a little bit of this work and one thing that’s not coming up as much in what you’ve shared here. And maybe you’re just more fortunate than I was. But I wanna, I wanna talk about this share ability, as in just to. Just to help listeners see, you want to be careful coming from the outset of quote unquote, forcing everyone to share to a real audience out there. There are lots of reasons we might not think about where people just would not feel comfortable doing that.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:22:51]:

So to have. Yes. The beauty in the sharing within that community you’re sharing every time. Hopefully, hopefully someone in that learning community in your class is sharing every time we get together in big and small ways. So that by the time we. To the end, that’s just a part of who we are. But I’m specifically warning listeners against anytime you have a project, oh, we’re going to start a podcast. Oh, we’re going to write a book.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:23:17]:

There is so much that could potentially happen of people’s fears, real or imagined, that that’s something that really. So I think what I’m hearing you saying is a lot of that happened after the class was over and a lot of that then they have the autonomy to say, no, I do not wish to participate. Or oh my gosh, thank you so much for helping me celebrate, you know, my graduation in this way. So is there anything else that you would want to advise about that sort of sharing beyond your beautifully carefully cultivated community in that. In that particular class or those sets of classes?

Adriana Aldana [00:23:56]:

Yeah, no, I appreciate you bringing those things up. I do. So a couple of things have come up for me. The other recommendation, guidance I give students in preparation for the assignment itself. So in addition to like read it out loud for yourself once at least before reading it in class, is also to say, write an unfiltered letter that is private to you just so that you can exercise any thoughts, any reflections, and then think about you’re going to come and read it to class. What feels comfortable given our learning community. And you’re right, Bonni, that by the time we’re reading those letters, sharing, having a cultural vulnerability is part of the learning community and process. I also am really benefiting from the fact that these are graduate students who are essentially learning in a cohort format.

Adriana Aldana [00:24:55]:

These are folks that have been with each other for approximately two years. And who are not just in class together, out of class, building relationships. And so I’m leveraging that relational aspect of the way that our program is. So I would be curious even for myself to think about how do I heighten that maybe for undergraduate students or students who aren’t in a cohort model? I definitely would never assign this assignment as Assignment 1. It would be something towards the end, something that we’ve been building towards collectively. And yes, in terms of the book itself, essentially what I did was I emailed all the students in those two cohorts of the 2020 and 2021 class. I shared the proposal with them. I said, it’ll be part of a publish book.

Adriana Aldana [00:25:47]:

If you want to be a part of it, please email me back, and then we can start the process of having you be a contributor. And so the. The letters that were included were the folks that opted into that. And I would never feel comfortable even pressing or trying to encourage the students who didn’t respond.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:26:07]:

What I’m drawing so much from is all the questions we might ask for the degree to which we might want to tackle a project like this. If it’s in a graduate program, particularly a graduate program that’s in a cohort model, A lot of the barriers that. That might have been experienced if it was undergraduate or if it’s. It’s just this class, it’s just 12 weeks. It’s just 16 weeks. A lot, you know, a lot. And of course, I’m imagining a ton is dependent on, well, how well does that cohort actually create a real cohort and a real learning community that gets to get fostered across these arbitrary course links? Before we get to the recommendations segment, I want to hear about what have students shared with you about this experience for them?

Adriana Aldana [00:26:54]:

Yeah, I think the. The in class reading is folks favorite part of the assignment. All of us have shed tears, tears of joy, of grief. And I think feelings are heightened. Again, this is the last day of class, usually a week or two before graduation. So emotions are just in the air. And this. This assignment has served as this really beautiful way to close the loop, close this time together, to again be able to witness one another in ways that maybe we hadn’t in our own class setting.

Adriana Aldana [00:27:33]:

But even through the program, students have talked about folks who decided to write letters to loved ones, family members, their own children, feeling like this was a really healing process. Many of them sharing that they plan to share the letter with someone, others who said, I don’t need to share the letter, but writing it in Itself has been really helpful and meaningful to me. So I really enjoy this assignment and particularly being witness to that sharing and this additional layer of human connection that happens through that. Again, witnessing of each other’s lived experience and the meaning making that we make around about the world around us.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:28:22]:

Oh, this is so helpful to see. I have so many more questions I want to ask you. And yet it is probably that time for us to each share what we have to recommend. And I have been going through quite a number of changes at our university. I know that so many people around the world are just experiencing enormous change. And they’re not always the most fun kinds of changes. I will leave it at that. And so I keep coming back to the work of William Bridges, who I have recommend or have shared about his work over, gosh, many episodes.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:28:58]:

But it looks like I have not officially in the recommendations, shared about his book Managing Transitions, Making the Most of Change. But to briefly share about William Bridges, he’s shared about transitions and change. It’s much of his research, it’s what he’s known for. And his first book, which is a great one just to get your sense of self introduced to his model, is called Transitions. And then this is the second in the series that’s as a leader, how do you manage transitions? And he has a beautiful book that I’ll probably save for a future recommendation, but where his wife, after seven years died from cancer. And so he goes back just through the grieving process. Is anything that he ever said about transitions even true? Looked at at a very personal and deep level. So this, as I mentioned, is the second in a series of three books that go really well together.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:29:56]:

And what I like about William Bridges is that he reminds us that change doesn’t start with beginnings, even though we tend to think that it doesn’t. Even the best kinds of changes, you know, maybe you’re gonna marry your, you know, absolute best friend, your partner, what a, what a, you know, happy event in your life. Guess what? That doesn’t begin with beginnings, that begins with endings. And then he talks about the neutral zone, which is all that liminal space in between the new new. And we’re not to the new new yet, but we’re also not in the way we did things before. And how do we handle ambiguity? And so he’s able to name these things and then tell us as leaders what are some things that we might do to help human beings who are going through transitions. And this could be lots of, like I said, lots of different kinds of transitions. Happy ones, sad ones, and like so many of them, a whole hodgepodge of a whole bunch of different emotions and feelings.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:30:55]:

I’m really finding it helpful to go back to, and I think could be really helpful to people who are going through major changes, major transition, either on a personal level or if you’re expected to lead a group that is experiencing that together, really, really helpful for me to revisit. Oh my gosh, does it ever hold up? And now I’m going to pass it over to you for whatever you’d like to recommend.

Adriana Aldana [00:31:21]:

Oh, that’s a wonderful recommendation. I’m transitioning from being in the academic calendar into summer, but this is a recommendation that I would offer year round and that would be to integrate a traveler’s mindset into your day to day. And by that I don’t mean like a tourist in your own town, although that could also be really fun. But in trying to find small ways to insert joy and fun or just relaxation into my day to day, I realized that myself, like many other people, love to travel. But I was like, what is it about the travel experience that I really enjoy? And so that could look very different for different folks. My husband loves to wake up later when we’re traveling and to relax. For me, it’s like I want to just walk a city and find new coffee shops or a bookstore and see what I find in that bookstore. And so for me, what that translates to in Southern California, where you can’t just walk anywhere, but it’s to create these pockets of time where I don’t have an agenda.

Adriana Aldana [00:32:38]:

I might go to grab coffee, but I don’t have a specific coffee shop that I’m going to go to. I might just try something new or it might look like going to my local museum, which I love going to museums when I travel, but somehow I don’t check out the museums that are just in my back door. It’s these little ways that for me, trying to replicate those feelings that I have when I’m traveling, even when I’m at home. So that might also mean, like, I love to read books when I’m traveling for leisure, especially somewhere outdoors. So sometimes it’s my backyard, but sometimes I’ll walk to the park and read there and somehow the book just feels more magical than it does on my sofa. So that would be my recommendation for your listeners.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:33:24]:

Oh, that’s so much fun. I love that idea. You’re just reminding me so much of how we can pay attention to what’s right there before us and rediscover it anew. You were talking about finding new coffee shops or bookstores, and I was thinking that, you know, those bookstores are few and far between. Now, if you ever fell in love with an independent bookstore, you might have had your heart broken somewhere along the way. And if you still do have an independent bookstore near where you live, you better treasure that.

Adriana Aldana [00:33:53]:

Definitely.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:33:54]:

Yeah. That’s so great. Well, it has been so delightful. Thank you for sharing not just your experience, but also for sharing the experience of all these collabor. And I want to let people know that this book is. We should have probably mentioned this even earlier. I should have mentioned this earlier. It’s so special because it’s not just a book that, yes, you could buy from an independent bookstore, but that you could actually go.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:34:16]:

You can download it on their website, the center for Engaged Learning’s website at Elon University. You also could get a print copy there. I think as of this recording, it’s coming soon. But I imagine by the time this releases, it probably will be available to order a print copy. But then also other resources are up there. Want to share what else we might find so we can convince people to go to the show notes and go. Start clicking away. What else might they find up there?

Adriana Aldana [00:34:41]:

Yeah. So in addition to the electronic copy of the book, folks can get a sample of the youth empowerment syllabus as well as the assignment guidelines. So if folks wanted to integrate or modify that assignment, they could look at examples that I’m offering. I also provided cluster of discussion questions for different sections of the book. So if folks are using the book in their classrooms or in a reading group, they have some discussions to start off their discussions.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:35:14]:

Yeah, I remembered going up there and kind of getting lost in the best way possible. As lost as in so much to find, so much to discover. And even if this isn’t related to your discipline or the areas that you focus on, even just the reminder of, gosh, if I tried something like this with students, we should probably think about discussion questions. Or if I tried something like this with students, I might want to have a letter that I send to them that then, you know, that, that. And then if I wanted to look for a publisher, I probably, you know, maybe open access might be the way to go. And then what kind of open access publisher might be. Might be right there.

Adriana Aldana [00:35:49]:

Yeah. And that’s actually another excellent recommendation that I could offer is check out the center for Engaged Learning’s website, the Open Access series. Not only my book, but. But a lot of different wonderful books that are available for free that have resources that I’m sure folks would be really excited to look at.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:36:05]:

Oh, I’m so glad I brought that up then, because yes, I certainly knew that their website existed, but the publishing arm, I became really much more familiar with getting to read your book and then diving back in there and kind of finding this whole cornucopia of resources.

Adriana Aldana [00:36:20]:

Yeah, you can really get into a rabbit hole of all these different books on engaging teaching and learning, and they’re all free and available for you just a click away.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:36:29]:

I love it. Well, thank you so much for investing your time. I’m so glad to be connected and now only to find out we’re practically neighbors.

Adriana Aldana [00:36:36]:

Yes. I’m so excited to have you around in the neighborhood and I’m hoping our paths will cross again.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:36:43]:

I do too. Thanks so much.

Adriana Aldana [00:36:45]:

Thank you.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:36:48]:

Thanks once again to Adriana Aldana for joining me on today’s episode of Teaching in Higher Ed. Today’s episode was produced by me, Bonni Stachowiak. It was edited by the ever talented Andrew Kroeger. Podcast production support was provided by the amazing Sierra Priest. Thanks to each one of you for listening. If it’s been a while that you’ve been listening and you haven’t had a chance to share it with another friend or colleague, or to rate or review the show on whatever service it is you use to listen, now could be a wonderful opportunity to contribute to more people learning about the podcast and being a part of the teaching in Higher Ed community. Thanks so much for listening and I’ll see you next time on Teaching in Higher Ed.

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