Bonni [00:00:00] Today on episode number 262 of the Teaching in Higher Ed podcast Peggy Stevenson shares how she changes lives one petition (and class) at a time.

Production Credit [00:00:15] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Bonni [00:00:25] Hello and welcome to this episode of Teaching in Higher Ed. I’m Bonni Stachowiak and this is the space where we explore the art and science of being more effective at facilitating learning. We also share ways to improve our productivity approaches so we can have more peace in our lives and be even more present for our students.

Bonni [00:00:53] Professor Stevenson founded the Record Clearance Project as a way to give students hands on experience with the law, the court system, and the people involved. The Record Clearance Project is a unique undergraduate curriculum and a central community resource. Through her dedicated work and innovative efforts, Professor Stevenson has created a rich three-course learning environment for students interested in a broad range of careers and advanced study. Stevenson collaborates with law schools, the courts, corrections systems, and other advocacy and community based organizations. To date, the Record Clearance Project has filed over fourteen hundred expungement petitions for over 500 clients with a 99% success rate. Professor Stevenson has created a project that provides experiences students would not otherwise gain outside of law school enabling them to use the law and their education to change lives for the better.

Bonni [00:02:01] Peggy, welcome to Teaching in Higher Ed.

Peggy [00:02:03] Thank you.

Bonni [00:02:04] For those of us who are not attorneys and are not well versed in your field, tell us about what record clearance means.

Peggy [00:02:14] Yes. Well that’s a really great question because I was a lawyer for 20 years before I even thought about record clearance. I was focused on helping low wage workers recognize and enforce their rights when I kept finding out about people who were not getting jobs or not getting interviews or not getting housing because they had a criminal conviction on their past record. Actually about 30% of folks have some encounter on their records with law enforcement, whether it’s an arrest or a conviction. And even if it’s years and years ago, even if it’s relatively minor, which many of our clients that’s the case, those kinds of things can still stop people from getting jobs. Jobs is the main reason people find a barrier but also housing, also family relationships in terms of becoming guardians, immigration consequences.

Peggy [00:03:09] So the more I got into this field the more I recognized what a barrier having a criminal conviction on somebodies record is. And it was particularly motivating to work in this area after not having done any work in the criminal field at all because so often the discrepancy between what somebody has on their record and who they are today is just profound. So that provides a real opportunity for students to kind of confront their own preconceptions about somebody who has a criminal conviction and then also quickly readjust their views of what it means to be a contributing member of society.

Peggy [00:03:56] So basically record clearance involves dismissing convictions from people’s records. And we have the legal right to do that in California. In many cases, convictions have to be dismissed. And then also reducing felonies to misdemeanors if the law provides that remedy. So it’s basically giving people a chance that the law provides to move forward from their past.

Bonni [00:04:21] I used to teach a lot more 50 minute classes than I do today. And you just struck this memory of mine going way back probably very early in my teaching, maybe 15 years ago or so and I remember talking about a hard drive and people think that if they delete a file off of a traditional hard drive- now I’m going back to like the kinds that have the disk that spins, I’m not talking about a lot of solid state drives today. But back then if you erased a file, you didn’t erase the table of contents that said what was on that device or on that hard drive and so people would think- and this comes up in law enforcement, I don’t know how much it comes up today but back in the day they would come up a lot because they would think “oh I just got rid of everything that would be evidence of this” and in fact you did not, you just erased it from this table of contents but it didn’t get written over yet, that data still exists. And so I remember talking about it in class and having a line of students up at the front all wanted to talk about “well I had these pictures, does that mean that they never really went away?” It’s just they all have their story that they’re trying to tell me without getting super specific. And anyway, I’m thinking about something as relatively minor as a photo or a document that we wish would disappear and then I’m hearing you talk about something far more pronounced than that. Tell me about those early days when you just started shaking your head going “wait, this is not right.”

Peggy [00:05:54] Yeah no absolutely. And I think that the analogy is an interesting one because when we do dismiss convictions and when we do reduce felonies to misdemeanors as the law allows, the courts still get to see that. So if somebody gets in trouble again it’s not like it’s completely gone and law enforcement gets to see that. So ditto if somebody hasn’t quite moved forward with their lives yet, the past is still there and visible to people who need to see it. But it gives people a chance to get over past mistakes and again become contributing members, really moving forward to their full potential.

Peggy [00:06:35] So things like petty theft from 20 years ago have stopped somebody from doing elder care. We need people to take care of the elderly. Why is it that we would hold somebody back who had a petty theft from ages ago and yet that shows up. We look at so many different kinds of mistakes. Well in particular I guess I’m thinking about people- a lot of our clients have had alcohol and drug problems. In fact about 80% of them. And at the point where they’re able to get clean and sober they have a whole different approach to life and a whole different set of priorities and a whole different motivation. And yet the disease of alcoholism or addiction has meant that they have developed a criminal record that means that we as a society have decided that that person is limited in what they can do and what they can accomplish.

Peggy [00:07:34] The Stanford Public Policy Institute did an analysis using some of our data. It means after somebody gets their record cleared, they are on average earning each year $6,190 more than they earned before their record was cleared. So it means I think a whole bunches of things. I think it means that we have allowed people to move forward, like I’ve said with education and jobs, but it also means that people have allowed themselves to move forward.

Peggy [00:08:04] I think one of the things that surprised me the most as I got into this work was the profound effect that having a record has on somebody in terms of what they feel that they can accomplish and whether they dare to apply for a promotion at work where they’ve been doing stellar work, or whether they dare to seek another type of job that they think they would really want to do and would be skilled at doing because they’re afraid of their record coming up and somebody finding out.

Bonni [00:08:39] So you started this work, you said it took 20 years in law before you started to do this. Tell us about the decision to to start this Record Clearance Project and even what the record clearance project is.

Peggy [00:08:54] Yeah so probably like a lot of teachers and a lot of people listening to this, I was motivated to try to help other people and in grandiose terms make the world a better place in whatever little way I could do that. So I did Legal Services which is providing low income people with representation that they would be able to get their housing or their immigration or other consumer issues resolved but never had anything to do with criminal law. I started teaching at law schools and taught at law schools for 12 years because I wanted to help law students learn to do the kinds of things that I found so gratifying and be able to help other people. And I worked in community based clinical programs at the law schools. And I was working in East Palo Alto at the Stanford Community Law Center when in 2005 thi community group called All Of Us or None approached us and said “if you really are a community law center, you all would be doing record clearance work.” And I’m thinking “oh man no, we don’t do criminal work, I don’t know anything about that.”  But one of the lessons I think that I hope that students have taken and that I have certainly tried to apply myself is well, ask people whether the services they are providing are useful to them and how they can be improved. And so it really struck me that we are the Stanford community law center, we’re going to need to serve this community in East Palo Alto. And so that was kind of the first plunge.

Peggy [00:10:27] I did that for a couple of years and with the help of some fantastic students who are now attorneys, we developed the program. The Stanford Community Law Center downsized a bit and I had the enormous good fortune to go to San Jose State and start teaching a course of society class there. And I felt like wait a second, the idea behind the clinical programs in law schools is a longstanding one where people get practical skills before they go out into their professions. But I bet undergraduates could do this too. And sort of the rest is history.

Peggy [00:11:06] It took a couple of years but in 2011 we got three unit classes approved as part of the curriculum in the Justice Studies department and started enrolling students and using sort of the backgrounds that we had developed with the law students, did some more training and also set up the circumstances for the students to feel like they were both equipped and supervised, that basically did me as an attorney I had their back. And then we kind of put them out and let them do their work.

Peggy [00:11:44] It’s always been important to me that the students understand that they are meeting an actual need. And so in setting up the courses, I thought it was critical even in the beginning class that the students go out into the community and understand firsthand from people that they are assisting why what we’re doing, what they are doing is important.

Peggy [00:12:07] So part of the first classes curriculum is giving a presentation on legal rights to clear records. And that means the students have to really learn the law really well and they learn have to learn how to present it in response to people’s questions. So that gets people out into the community. And also actually we decided we should tell people in jail as well. So since 2012 we’ve been going into jail and giving the presentation about legal rights.

Peggy [00:12:38] And the second thing we do in the beginning class is provide brief legal advice sessions to explain to people what it is that’s actually on their records so they know how to answer questions if asked and also what steps to take in order to clear their records. So that’s kind of how it started.

Peggy [00:12:57] We developed the second class, which is an advanced class where by permission of instructor only the students are given at least two clients to represent. And so day one of their advanced class, they get handed their clients file and they work in teams. And by the end of the semester they’ve had hopefully a couple of clients whose petitions they have prepared to be filed in court and court hearings. And happy clients afterward.

Bonni [00:13:30] Many months ago I was an advisor for a group called Volunteer Income Tax Assistance and it’s somewhat similar to what you’re describing, it is the only thing I have ever been a part of that that is even close to what you’re describing. And I can remember because you were talking about how important it is for you for the students to recognize you’re meeting an actual need- and in order to do that we really have to have them in the community. And I remember this absolutely stellar accounting major. And it’s the first client that she sat down with to help them, these are low-income individuals that they receive this free assistance through volunteers and also some technology as well to help them do that. And I remember she’s hearing this young woman’s story about the number of people that are living in a small apartment in Santa Anna. And then this young woman thinking that she’s in high school that she could never go to college that would never be possible not these young women are gathering with her “you absolutely could. Here’s how you could do it.” It’s the coolest thing.

Bonni [00:14:31] But as you were telling your story, I was connecting it to that because one of the things I wish I would have done better is to recognize that state of shock of “oh my gosh. How do people live like this? How do they?” Cause they had done her taxes. And I mean how do you live where we live on that low of an income? And I kind of wished that there was a place to process that. And do you find that same thing where you recognize there’s going to be this just oh my gosh! Either this is a horrible thing in our society that this happens to people. Do you have a way of helping them navigate through those early things as they’re just having these awakenings?

Peggy [00:15:10] Yeah, I think that is really profound. Part of what we do in both of those classes is we do a debrief just kind of as a group so the students share what they have heard in the course of their interviews with people in reviewing their rap sheets and so forth. What I ask them to do you is tell your classmates something that you feel like you learned from the process of doing this interview. And then hopefully we all talk about ways that we all feel like we could have done something better. I think that’s really part of the paradigm of service learning classes is that we don’t just continue to do things but we also build into the classroom for reflection. And I want the students to think both about what they did well because as I say to them, “if you just do something well but don’t realize it then you’re not going to keep doing it.” And it’s important that we recognize “hey that went really well and here’s what I need to focus on in order to be sure I don’t lose that in my next interview.” And then we always have room for improvement but it’s good I think for the students to reflect in that process as a group but also at the end of the semster, I ask the beginning class, the first class to write a short paper about what were your expectations coming into this in terms of the people/ the clients that you would be meeting. And has anything changed?

Peggy [00:16:37] Similarly, I ask the advanced students who now will have met a couple of clients and heard their stories to reflect on what they got out of that process. And we did do the do brief sessions with the advanced students as well. And I am amazed at some of the things that the students are hearing. They work in teams so they always have somebody kind of to help as they’re hearing these things. But many clients have, as I mentioned, substance abuse issues and frequently sadly that result as a consequence of having been sexually molested as kids. So students are hearing from people the stories of abuse, neglect, raising themselves on the streets, leaving home at age 12, and just the challenges that their clients have faced, and in these cases have overcome because these are people who are now saying “that was then and this is now and I need to get this off of my record.”

Peggy [00:17:41] So I’ve just been incredibly impressed by the sophistication and maturity of the students doing these interviews as undergraduates. Just as a side, I’ve brought in law students who we’ve paired with undergraduates just for all sorts of reasons which I can mention. But the law students kind of in the course of going to law school get trained to kind of shut off part of their emotions, I think they get into law student mode, legal analysis, and change their way of thinking and it’s really a wonderful dynamic to hear the undergraduates and the law students talk about their mutual interview as they debrief because the law students really appreciate the fact that the undergraduates are such good interviewers. It reminds me, we had alternative spring break where students from Columbia Law School in New York come out in spring to work with us, go figure. Why would they want to come from New York City to San Jose in the spring? I just have no idea. But anyway they come out and we assign them to work with a client during this particular week to meet the client on a Tuesday and get the client’s petition done on Friday getting ready to file for the next day which is like super fast but it has worked, we’ve done it for seven years.

Peggy [00:18:59] And one of my particular enjoyable responses was that we’d had a law student and undergraduate interview team and when the law student wanted the client to get back in touch with them, he would call and leave a message on the client’s file and the client wouldn’t answer. But when the undergraduate would call her and say “hey we have a question for you,” the client would call back immediately to talk with undergrad because of course there was this rapport, this natural human interaction.

Peggy [00:19:28] But to go back to the point, yes I think part of the job of the teacher and supervisor in these types of cases is to help the students recognize what a powerful dynamic they have in this professional relationship as opposed to a friendship relationship or a professional relationship where the client will entrust them with these stories of their personal tragedies. And then the students take these story and in the advanced class write them in the client’s voice, in the first person. So they organize what is often a chaotic existence that the clients have presented to them, put it into the right legal format but retaining the client’s voice and presenting it in the first person which is just an amazing sort of recipe for profound life changes.

Peggy [00:20:23] We have a slogan record clients project changing lives one petition at a time. And the clients lives certainly are changed. But the students frequently say that it’s their lives as well that are changed. Actually I have a couple of quotes from papers that I just got in the last 24 hours. I don’t know if that would be of interest to hear from a couple of students who-.

Bonni [00:20:47] I would love it, that would be wonderful.

Peggy [00:20:51] OK well here’s one student who- the first class we teach is JS 140, so she’s referring to Justice Studies 140. She said that her initial internship that she had signed up had fallen through. So she ended up taking JS 140 in its place. And she said: “When I initially took JS 140 it was because it would take the place of the internship that fell through. I was in complete shock when I added the class and saw what I was getting myself into. I had no idea that I was going to love the class as much as I did. When I went to my first speed screening advice session and saw what we were doing for people that we were giving them some sort of hope for their future, I knew what I wanted to do with mine. Since working with clients, I’ve decided to pursue law school in hopes to continue to work with expungement.”

Bonni [00:21:47] Peggy, I know you have a couple more quotes from students and I think there’s nothing better than hearing it from students perspectives. Would you talk about what your other two students shared with you?

Peggy [00:21:58] Sure. I’d be happy to. This came through just last night as I was sitting down to try to write a final exam.

Peggy [00:22:05] “As the semester comes to an end I wanted to thank you for giving me the opportunity to be part of the Record Clearance Project. This program has had a huge impact in my life. I found my best friends here at SJSU through this class. I also look to you as a role model and a mentor and will continue to do so as I move forward in my career and education. This internship was an incredible opportunity and I’m so happy to say that I was part of it. Thank you for everything this past year. Thank you for believing in me.”.

Peggy [00:22:37] This person wrote: “My experience with the Record Clearance Project has been amazing. I always wanted to help people but I never knew how to do that. RCP has given me the opportunity not only to help but to make a difference. Every day I feel like I am doing something meaningful and worthwhile. All the hard work is worth it when I see people smile and thank us for giving them hope again. It is truly an honor being able to watch people take their first step to a better life. In the future I hope to start a similar program in Monterey County and help those that need it. I have seen firsthand how much positive change the RCP has done in Santa Clara County and I want to bring that same hope to my community.”

Bonni [00:23:23] To me those quotes speak so much to success. And I can hear in your voice that it does as well. I also know there’s a wonderful way we can look at success in terms of quantitatively. And I don’t know if the data I have is accurate, but as of the time that this information was produced you have filed over fourteen hundred expungement petitions for over 500 clients with a 99% success rate. Is that kind of still in line or have those gone up in terms of the expungements?

Peggy [00:23:55] No that’s accurate. Yeah. We’ve had phenomenal success that’s with I think about 17 different judges have read the petitions and in fact complimented the program on presenting the client’s statements so clearly. So the students work hard and doing those, I work hard in editing them and sending them back. But it’s really a fantastic process too because the students learn skills in writing as they go through this process. They also have the opportunity to go back to their clients with the final product and say “here’s what we’ve got. What do you think of it?” And the comments from the clients are- one student told me that or wrote I think that the client’s comment in looking at the petition that she had prepared for him were more important than any grade he could possibly get in the class. Basically he said something like “there’s no grade that could equate with how it felt to have my client tell me that I had captured what he wanted to say in his petition.” So I think part of what happens is the students take the client’s comments, put them into an organized but still authentic voice and reflect them back to the clients who feel like this is an objective statement that I’m a worthy person and that dynamic is a pretty profound experience for I think all involved.

Bonni [00:25:31] What you’re describing some listeners who’ve been listening to this podcast for a while might remember back that Thia Wolf from Chico State University was on and she introduced, I had not heard of this before, but she introduced to me public sphere pedagogy. And then a lot of people listening will be familiar with open pedagogy. But to me, I think of it like back in the theater when you open up the fourth wall and the actors and actresses begin speaking to the audience it’s kind of like what you just described it’s one of the keys to address any kind of apathy that learners might be in is just to say “no this is real.” I mean if you can tap into that desire that so many of us have to make a difference in this world, that is a powerful powerful thing that can overcome the power that grades have in off in a negative way, the power that that has.

Bonni [00:26:21] I actually have a quote from one of your clients I’d love to share and this is from a client in 2017. “I was still in shock when I left the court so I didn’t get a chance to hug you and thank you. I am so grateful to your team and the funders who helped put my past behind me. Words still can’t describe how grateful, excited, motivated I am for my future now thanks to all of you.”.

Bonni [00:26:47] And I can only imagine as your students read that and as you read that I mean that and that just fuels even more of that motivation.

Peggy [00:26:55] In this kind of real need environment where the students recognize that they can make a profound difference, the educational and life changing opportunities just abound.

Bonni [00:27:10] I have one more question before we go to the recommendations segment and it’ll be a little sloppy I’ll warn you in advance, but as you were talking and I’m trying to put myself in your shoes. I was reminded of some criticisms of learning management systems that were being conveyed on Twitter the other day. And it has to do with this, that when you put a class that’s entirely in a learning management system once the class is over, a lot of the learning that existed during that time that arbitrary length of a class time goes away. For example, if you had a discussion board or students submitted things like that, that all goes away for the next time you teach it. But a lot of the work that people do in their teaching, they want to live on beyond these arbitrary boundaries. I would imagine for your work, you’re constantly learning from what the students are experiencing. You’re having them do these debriefs and these reflections, I’m curious how you approach that idea of a class’s learning living on whether that’s process oriented or some of the deeper stuff you’re unpacking? Like how do you think about that? And any guidance for people who find themselves like needing to do what you’re doing and have that learning live on a lot longer?

Peggy [00:28:26] Well first of all I’d like to say that anybody who would want to try, I’d be delighted to give them all the information and all the materials that we’ve developed. As might not be surprising, there is no other program like this that I’ve found for undergraduates providing this kind of services in the country. So we started from scratch. And I’ve developed the semester long PowerPoints and quizzes and sample petitions and everything. So I’d be delighted to make that available if anybody wants to get in touch with me. I have set up a Google Drive for different parts of it. So I’m going to compile it all into a Google Drive.

Peggy [00:29:07] But in terms of sort of making the class better I definitely take to heart what we have the students do and what went well and why and how can we improve. So with the help of particularly the advanced students who have been through the beginning class already, we just sit down and redesign it. We just add pieces or take pieces away, we set up workshops out as a means by which people would have the advanced students helping the new students with some of the more hands on lower ratio one on one skill development. And things like that, we start new projects and hopefully maintain them. We have a lot of alumni come back and help out. So I feel like not everybody is going to be as effective as some of the quotations from the people that I’ve just read. But I think it does make a difference for people as part of their lives and then what they can add just enriches the program immeasurably.

Bonni [00:30:16] There’s a couple of themes I’m hearing you talk about not just in this most recent answer but earlier as well. One is a big theme in your work is talk to your students. How do you keep getting better at this? Well you talk to them. You ask them. You sit down with them and wrestle through it together. Mentioning alumni, so you’re building these threads and these relationships with these people not just again back to this arbitrary class start date and end date. You’ve built things that have transformed their lives and that’s going to keep those relationships there. And then also your work speaks so much to just serving the community and it’s not about showing a PowerPoint other than the PowerPoints usefulness in doing that work to serve your community and I think that could apply across so many disciplines I can’t think of one that that wouldn’t apply to just that what you’re doing. Yes, it’s going to be a different way of serving the community but that those threads really do spread across all disciplines.

Peggy [00:31:17] Yes I think so. I love welcoming the alumni back as well because it role models more immediate role models for the students who are currently in class. We just had recently one of our former students who never thought he was going to go to law school come back to serve as a volunteer attorney at one of our advice sessions. And the current students are like “what? You are in this program and now you’re a lawyer?” So yes, I think the openness to how we do this better and encouraging the students as participants is broadly transferable.

Peggy [00:31:55] And I think the other thing that I might say is that I really do try to step back too. So in these moments where this magic happens between the clients and the students, I’m way off in the background. And I think that the teacher’s role is just set up the environment where the magic can happen and then step back and watch.

Bonni [00:32:22] I’m so glad that you said that last piece because I have all these thoughts in my head I’ve just been so inspired by the work that you do. I’m so glad we got to have this conversation and it’s not over yet because now we get to give our recommendations. And I wanted to start with mine and that is people who’ve been listening to the show for a while know that I really enjoy the blog that’s written by Seth Godin. And he wrote one called Three Kinds of Forever that I want to share. “There’s the forever of discomfort, the feeling we get during a temporary situation that feels like it’s going to last forever. It’s one thing to tolerate a bumpy landing on an airplane because you know it’ll be over in ten seconds but a car sick toddler doesn’t have that perspective. He’s wailing and sad because he thinks that this is the new normal, a permanent situation. Too often we quit in the dip not because we can’t tolerate discomfort for an hour, a week, or a month, but because we mistakenly believe that it might last forever. There’s the forever of plenty. That’s when we erroneously assume that the stuff that’s good is going to stay around, that this moment, this leverage, these resources we can squander them because they’ll be here tomorrow. This sort of forever leads to heartbreak because inevitably it doesn’t last. It can’t. And finally there’s the forever of never. The dominant narrative of society is that you’re stuck with what you’ve got. Stuck in your status role, stuck in your skill set, stuck in your situation. If you believe it, it’s probably true. If you believe it, you just let yourself off the hook, which is comforting indeed. And if you believe it, you’ve made life easier for the systems that would like to pigeonhole you. But even though it’s certainly harder than it ought to be, it doesn’t have to be forever.” That was Seth Godin, his blog Three Kinds of Forever. And that’s my recommendation for today.

Bonni [00:34:26] And I didn’t realize this until just now Peggy, but there’s so many parallels between what I just read and what we spoke about. Isn’t that profound. I did not plan that.

Peggy [00:34:35] Isn’t that funny. I was just taking notes and I was like “wow well that was right on.”

Bonni [00:34:41] Oh I had no idea. I had no idea. And oftentimes these recommendations I just plug them in just cause I had no idea. That’s really cool. I loved that. So I’m glad you got to hear that Peggy. I warned you in advance it was a little bit of a longer recommendation for me but now I’m glad that I decided to read it anyway because it does fit so perfectly.

Peggy [00:35:00] Yeah. Fantastic.

Bonni [00:35:02] Peggy, what do you have to recommend for us today?

Peggy [00:35:05] Well I take my recommendations from the advice of one of our former clients who is now an employee and she works as a mentor helping people who are in custody get ready for their new lives upon release to move forward. So it’s terrific because she used to be in jail all the time and now she goes into jail to see her clients and then comes out. But one of the things that she has recommended to her clients that I think I find really helpful. I have thought about is this goal setting that she has her clients do. But it’s basically to tell someone something that you admire in them that they might not recognize themselves. And I think partly why that’s helpful is because it means that if you’re really going to do that to tell someone something that you admire in them that they might not recognize in themselves, it means you have to be listening and evaluating and paying attention and looking for the positives and reflecting that back to people which can only make them more productive and happier and move forward again in their lives.

Bonni [00:36:19] I love that, the deep listening and paying attention. Well I am so glad that I had this opportunity to speak with you. I’m really honored that you would spend the time and it’s just so fun to pass some of your inspiration around to disciplines that are so different than yours. But I know that all of us can take so much away from your work. So thank you for your time and your expertise and I’m just so- I just love that you care so much and this has just been your life’s work. It was so fun to just explore all the ways that that got woven in even after 20 years in the law. And isn’t that also inspiring that we can do so much even- we’re not done, we’re not done we’re never done, right.

Peggy [00:36:54] Absolutely. Well thank you so much, Bonni. I really really enjoyed this. I think sometimes we just go forward with our heads down without kind of stepping back to talk about and think about what makes us drive. And this has been a wonderful opportunity to reflect back on some of the things that have worked out so well. So I really appreciate it. Thank you very much.

Bonni [00:37:21] As Peggy was closing there I was thinking about that. I got to have a experience giving to debrief with her a little bit. It’s just nice that she was able to take a moment aside and reflect on the profound work that she does and has done. What a magnificent experience it was to get to interview her. Thanks to California State University for making this opportunity available to me.

Bonni [00:37:43] And thanks to all of you for listening. As a quick reminder if you have never signed up for the email list, that’s a great way to get the links to all these inspirational faculty who are sharing so much with us. You can go and explore these things even more and also to get an article about teaching or pedagogy from me on most weeks. So if you’d like to subscribe you can do that at teachinginhighered.com/subscribe. Thanks so much for listening. I’ll see you next time.

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