Bonni Stachowiak [00:00:00]:

Today on episode number 562 of the Teaching in Higher Ed podcast, supporting undocumented students in higher education with Jesús Campos.

Production Credit: Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Welcome to this episode of Teaching in Higher Ed. I’m Bonni Stachowiak, and this is the space where we explore the art and science of being more effective at facilitating learning. We also share ways to improve our productivity approaches, so we can have more peace in our lives and be even more present for our students. Jesús Campos, PhD, is a research coordinator at the Harris County Department Of Education and a member of the HCDE’s institutional review board. He received his PhD from Texas Southern University in 2021. He also serves as an adjunct faculty member at the University of Saint Thomas in Houston, Texas, where he teaches in the criminology, law, and society department.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:01:19]:

His research interests include juvenile delinquency, school based delinquency, school safety, immigration and crime, and Latino Hispanic issues in criminal justice. Jesús’ experiences as an undocumented undergrad and graduate student shape his teaching methods, and he shares about that in today’s conversation. He is committed to shedding light on a population of students who far too often feel as if they must remain in the shadows. Jesús Campos, welcome to Teaching in Higher Ed.

Jesús Campos [00:01:57]:

Hey. Thanks for having me. It’s an absolute pleasure to be here.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:02:00]:

I am grateful for us to get to have this conversation, and I want us to start with you taking us back in time. Can you tell us what school was like for you as a young kid?

Jesús Campos [00:02:12]:

Sure. So kind of giving a quick recap there. I was born in Mexico. My family immigrated to The United States when I was about one, almost two years old. So my first experience in education at all was in America as a as a pre kindergartner. And, you know, back then, it was sort of normal. I wasn’t in ESL classes, ESL meaning English second language courses. I didn’t speak English when I first enrolled.

Jesús Campos [00:02:34]:

So that’s Spanish is my first language even though I was in American school. That’s a common thing for a lot of kids like me who were born in another country and came as either babies or very, very young toddlers. So I go into ESL. I learn English very quickly. By the time I’m in second or third grade, I transition out of these ESL programs into regular English classes. And that was like a it was a bit of a cultural shock because in my ESL classes, everybody was like me and spoke Spanish and or Hispanic. And now I’m thrown into the melting pot that is, you know, in an American classroom in the in the early nineties, in Houston, Texas where I’m from. And that was sort of my first shock there.

Jesús Campos [00:03:14]:

And I realized, hey. These folks, some of these kids don’t even speak Spanish. Wait a second. Some of these kids are different than me, you know, entirely different than me. It was the first time I had that experience, and I I remember it vividly. So that was kind of early on, and then I elementary school was sort of the same. Nothing really was different for me back then. It really didn’t sort of have a major impact until about middle school, I would say.

Jesús Campos [00:03:37]:

Middle school, kids started doing things. And what I mean by doing things, they started signing up for either summer programs or they started traveling, doing these sorts of things. Talking about college became a conversation piece at that point, things I never even thought about before. And so I started noticing, okay, people do certain things that I’m unfamiliar with. I’m hearing things about SAT. I don’t know what that acronym stands for. I don’t know what any of these act I I don’t know what GPA means. I don’t know any of this stuff.

Jesús Campos [00:04:04]:

Transitioning into high school, that’s really when it when it when it sort of hit me. I was a high school undocumented student. After ninth grade, tenth grade, you were, what, fifteen, sixteen at that point? And that’s when when it really sort of resonated that something was different for me. I knew ever since I was about fifth grade that I was, quote, unquote, undocumented, but but I really didn’t pay much attention because it didn’t have an impact up until about 16 years old. Something about another student getting a driver’s license, telling you about it, and you ask your parents and they say, you’re not you can’t get one. They get their first job. They’re working at a grocery store. They’re working at Starbucks or some ice cream shop, and you wish you could do that.

Jesús Campos [00:04:44]:

But but I can’t. I can’t get a job. And so that was sort of my my early high school days. It’s sort of having it it started having sort of an impact on me. And when my counselors and teachers would talk about college and getting ready, I started to sort of look into it with my brother. And I have a twin brother who was in the same position as me at the time.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:05:03]:

Mhmm.

Jesús Campos [00:05:03]:

And and so we’re looking at colleges, and they’re talking about applications to for for scholarships at the bottom, must be US resident. Right? At the bottom of all these applications, it must be US resident. All the we’re looking at the cost of these colleges, and we’re we’ve never seen so much money in our lives. We’re talking 10 back back in those days, 10,000 or something like that for tuition was a lot for us. So and our teacher’s saying, don’t worry. You know, you can apply for federal aid. We look at the federal aid application, must be US citizen. Right? Must be US resident to qualify.

Jesús Campos [00:05:34]:

Can’t get financial aid. Can’t get FAFSA. And so we were sort of in a position where you do feel a little defeated because all these other people are getting these avenues and access to resources and opportunities that you feel like you deserve, but you’re not entitled to them for something that you you you just cannot control. So high school was a bit difficult in that regard.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:05:56]:

You talked about the whole getting a driver’s license, such a pivotal part in so many people’s lives. And what was the feeling that you had around it? You described a feeling of, you know, they get to do these things, you know, have access to these funds or have access, in this case, to the driver’s license, and I don’t. So one emotion is I don’t I can’t find a better word than, like it’s a terrible word, but, like, a jealousy feeling. Like, I wish I could have that too. But but was there other emotions? Is there fear there too? Is is there what what else what else is going on there too?

Jesús Campos [00:06:29]:

Yeah. Fear fear would be a good word. That’s one of the emotions because the the natural question you have at that point as a as a teen is, well, why can’t I? Right? And then the conversation is had where you understand your your your situation and the sort of the reality dawns on you. And you say, wait a second. If I get busted, if I’m driving and and something happens, and and you’re saying I could be kicked out of this place, the only place I’ve ever known? I mean, I have no recollection of anything outside of The United States. And so the reality was, yes, you know, that potential exists. So fear was one of the emotions. And another emotion you start to feel is a little bit of of resentment towards the circumstance and a little bit.

Jesús Campos [00:07:13]:

And if I’m being honest here, by proxy, you sort of resent a little bit kind of the the the people that put you in this position. Your parents, obviously, in hindsight, they were doing the best they can. I mean, the the the goal of bringing them here was to give you a better life. And and if in hindsight, I can see that. And, obviously, I understand why they did what they did, and I’m grateful that they did it A %, they sacrificed a ton for for me to even have the opportunity to to be in that position. But at the time, as a 16, 17 year old, you realize, well well, this is a really crappy hand I was dealt. Right? And it wasn’t a natural occurrence. People decided and and individuals, lawmakers decided that this is the case for me.

Jesús Campos [00:07:52]:

And I’m being kinda put in a position that is really unfair. So you you do a little bit of negative emotions and resentment towards towards towards the hand you’re dealt, if you will.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:08:01]:

You touched on a little bit about starting to hear these words that or acronyms that didn’t mean anything to you, SAT, GPA, and then this realization of the significant costs of a college education. Take us back to just other things that you remember about applying for colleges. And let me actually say that I’m realizing even just using colleges as a plural. I only ever applied to one college, So I I’m even making an assumption just with the way I formulated that question in my mind, but just take take us back to that to that time, that season in your life where you’re you’re actually starting to explore what could this what could this mean for me? What what what’s this gonna look like?

Jesús Campos [00:08:41]:

Yeah. So the and and this is something that I’m certain that most high school students in my position would have would would resonate with. You start to then ask the question, well, what comes after this? Let’s say I pulled it off. Let’s say I pull together whatever social resources I have, and I’m able to get the support that puts me in a junior college, that puts me at an affordable four year school, and I get a degree in in whatever field I want. What what then then what comes after that? And so you start to ask yourself, is this worth it? Is this worth it? Then let let’s assume you say it is. Well, then you start looking at the applications. And the problem with I mean, students like myself, we wouldn’t just be first generation students. You can look at students who are first gen Americans who have been, let’s say, standard Americans who have been here, let’s say, the three generations plus.

Jesús Campos [00:09:29]:

Their parents might have not gotten to college, but they had friends who did. They knew what a GPA was. They knew what college generally is. Right? They knew you have to they know what a college application is. They have an idea of what an SAT score is. They have an idea of these these things. Although they didn’t do it themselves, they were around individuals that did. My parents didn’t even finish my parents only finished middle school back in their home country.

Jesús Campos [00:09:53]:

So anything to do with higher ed I mean, forget higher ed. Anything to do with high school they were unfamiliar with. They didn’t know what credits were. They didn’t know they didn’t know anything. You know? They didn’t know about any requirements to graduate. They didn’t know attendance, laws. You know, it was all sort of just they had this overarching sort of positive goal of getting us a better future, but lack of education on their part and and just just being foreigners to this place and and and not speaking the the language here, it meant that they were sort of outcasted and and sort of in the dark about a lot of these things that they wanted for us. So very much a lot of students like me, we face these things alone.

Jesús Campos [00:10:34]:

You know? We don’t have the support from our parents beyond the moral support, which is which is a lot. You know? And and they’re there, and they’re supportive emotionally, and they want us to do better. They just the technical how to is what they lack. So the applications are up. You couple that with, generally speaking, a lot of individuals, like myself are are coming possibly from lower socioeconomic status communities. And the the great performance that we have in high school I mean, there’s exceptions, of course. And and and the research kind of highlights, the overall problems that we face is is is just a lack of resources when we get to even high school. So we’re competing with individuals that already have college aligned aspirations and goals.

Jesús Campos [00:11:16]:

So by the time you’re a senior, you’re in all on level classes. You’ve done no sports because your parents can’t afford it. You don’t have a car to drive anywhere. You haven’t worked anywhere. You can’t apply to certain programs. And so you’re kind of, you’re kind of limited in what you can do to compete. So applications, your the goals and aspirations will sort of cut short, if you will, and and you’re probably just aiming for the cheapest, most affordable place you can find.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:11:41]:

And then take us to you apply, and how many places did you apply to, and what was that like to get an acceptance or multiple ones? What happened next?

Jesús Campos [00:11:52]:

So me and my brother have always been dreamers. And so we said, you know what? This sucks. Right? We looked at each other and we literally said, this sucks, but we’re gonna try anyway. And my brother’s always been very, academically gifted, more so than me, I’d I’d say, at the high school level and at the undergrad level. And we went to a state school, a four year state school. Nothing fancy here here in Texas. And we toured it, actually. I remember we toured it.

Jesús Campos [00:12:18]:

Our older brother took us to visit and tour this university. And I looking back now, I know it is he wanted us to to be there, but I I can tell he really didn’t expect us to do this, but he didn’t have the heart to tell us no. And so we were thinking, you know, find a solution. We go we tour the University of Texas in San Antonio. We look at a dorm and our jaws just drop. You know? The fact that our friends are gonna be going in these sorts of places, we look at the big universities, we look at the big classrooms, and we’re just in shock. Like, this is only what we imagined. I had never seen anything like that.

Jesús Campos [00:12:52]:

I didn’t even know that that those sorts of classrooms existed. Those sort of lecture halls existed. We come back. We realize, obviously, we don’t have the the the finances to go there, so we start looking local. I applied to a local community college and get accepted. I have to I didn’t take the SATs or anything. I mean, I was I was planning on just working manual labor sort of work, and I was convinced by family members and and loved ones to apply. And so I applied to a community college, and, I mean, I had to take a couple of tests to get admitted.

Jesús Campos [00:13:26]:

I passed all my tests and and there I was, a, freshman at a community college, no idea what he was doing back in ’20, I don’t know, ’20 02/2006. Two thousand ‘6.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:13:39]:

And that’s not where your journey of education ended. Tell us kinda what I I I would I realize it feels like this is your life, and we don’t Yeah. So it’s

Jesús Campos [00:13:50]:

not No. No. It’s not. It’s not. I don’t know where it ended. It started there. Honestly, I was a little bit pessimistic when I went because I was like, I’m doing this to sort of appease others. But in at some point, I’ll never forget, my mom said, look.

Jesús Campos [00:14:03]:

Your future here is is undetermined at the moment. We really don’t know what’s gonna happen, right, in five years’ time or whatever. But the one thing you can do, the one thing you can achieve even if you can’t work, is you can get a degree. That’s that’s an achievement you can do. So it sort of made me realize, hey. Look. I’m yes. It’s not the best hand I was dealt, but I’m at a I’m technically at a college.

Jesús Campos [00:14:26]:

It wasn’t a university. I’m technically at a community college, and I can achieve this. I can graduate from here. This is doable. It’s right here. You know? It’s right in front of me. So I started working odd jobs. I mean, everything.

Jesús Campos [00:14:37]:

Mowing lawns, flipping burgers, working at a golf course as a just a handyman. You name it, I did it to pay for my tuition. And I did it. I went through the two years. I kept the momentum going, and I applied to a a local state school here in Houston. At the time, it was the cheapest in state tuition in the whole state of Texas. And I took classes. I went to night school.

Jesús Campos [00:15:00]:

I worked during the day. I did it all the way through, and I got my bachelor’s undocumented entirely just I I did it through just sheer willpower, and I was able to get that and enrolled immediately into my master’s program. And in my second year of my master’s program in 2011 or something something like that, I actually was able to obtain legal status. So my life immediately changed overnight.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:15:24]:

I’m trying to find the name of this book, and I cannot find the name of this book, but I’m gonna commit to doing all the noodling in the in the future. But there’s a book that I read that was so profound that looks at a different experience than you had with your family. I’m thinking about your mother and just thank goodness that she was there to support you. But the book talks about, you mentioned the feeling of resentment. The book is some research around the feeling of resentment that can come from some families when they didn’t have the opportunity to gain the higher education. And so there’s there’s some of this, well, you should be with us for all of our needs because you’re taking away from the family to to go. So I’ll again, I’ll I’ll try to find the name of the book. This is one of those scenarios where, you know, people are yelling at their podcast player because they know exactly what book I’m talking about right now.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:16:14]:

But It’s

Jesús Campos [00:16:14]:

it’s it’s it’s very interesting you say that. I one thing I and I’ve had this discussion with other colleagues and and and other individuals on on the topic. There’s this and I remember vividly this feeling of of of sort of you look at somebody like my father who’s always been a hard worker, his father who’s always been a hard worker, a family full of individuals who are all lab skilled laborers or laborers of some sort. And then the the the sort of social in our subculture, if you will, the social norm there is is if you’re not coming home after a long hard day of work, are you actually being productive? Are you actually you know, this is what success means. Right? This is what what a hard day’s work mean. You’re telling me you’re reading a book. Right? I’m over here cutting trees down for a living under the under the Texas sun, or I’m over here pouring concrete, driveways in the Texas sun, or this person’s doing that, and you’re typing a paper.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:17:08]:

Mhmm. It

Jesús Campos [00:17:08]:

it’s a shift in the values of what of what is considered normal and a shift towards, comfort, if you will, where I’m saying, oh, I’m tired from writing this paper. And I can I can imagine someone like my father or my uncles saying, you’re tired? You, buddy, we just did x y z, and we’ve been doing that, and that’s what we do. How are you tired from typing a piece typing on on on a keyboard? And so the values and and and sort of, you do get some guilt as the student as well because you feel like, hey. I’m not really pulling my weight around here. You know? And and and and I’m sort of a burden at this point because I’m not producing anything. I’m not producing an income. They’re investing in me. Not only am I not producing an income, I’m asking them to help me pay for these classes when I’m not able to fully pay for the tuition.

Jesús Campos [00:17:55]:

And on top and then I think that builds sort of an unrealistic expectation of the parents because keep in mind, my parents didn’t know what to expect from high school. They certainly don’t know what to expect from from a college graduate. And there’s this sort of, myth almost that if you call it if you graduate college, you’re an instant success. I mean, you you you should be walking through the door. You know? As soon as you graduate college, you should have a $250,000 job a year job by next month because you’re big time now. And and that’s just not the way it works. And and I think there’s a lot of a lot of emotions there, if you will, and a lot of maybe sometimes unspoken thoughts and sentiments that go around that topic.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:18:35]:

You said the phrase earlier, you were asking and your brother was asking, is it worth it? As you look back now, how has that equation changed, or has it changed for you over time? The kinds of things you are factoring in that you recall at that time versus the kinds of things you might factor in at this stage in your life.

Jesús Campos [00:18:57]:

Yeah. I I I’ve had I think it is very well worth it in hindsight. And, you know, at the time, it’s difficult because you think you you have all these other options, you know, or or other avenues. But what I tell young people, and particularly undocumented young people that were in my position, I say, focus on on in these situations, you’re dealt a certain hand. The one thing you have is the opportunity to obtain a a college education here in in in America. That that is available. Now will it be at your preferred school? Possibly not. Right? It depends.

Jesús Campos [00:19:31]:

Certainly, you have some options. Not as many as as other students, but you have some to focus in on. And and it’s it’s an avenue that is probably yields the best return on investment, if you will, for most individuals from a personal standpoint and professionally because that degree is good. Even let’s assume a worst case scenario and you don’t have to go back home. You having an American college degree would help that individual. You know? In in the long term, it’s an investment in the individual. Because I always also say, yes. You’re dealt this.

Jesús Campos [00:20:00]:

And I was dealt my certain hand, but at the same time, I had both parents who absolutely loved me and cared for me. I had older brothers that supported me all the way through. I had friends and family that that believed in me outside of my immediate family that supported me, uncles that that cared about me and checked in on me. There are certain people that don’t have that. So while I was lacking my legal status, I had a bunch of other things that that other folks go without as well. So it’s it’s always it’s always difficult to look at life in in that regard, but I always tell individuals, focus on what you have highlighted and and just keep pushing and and and and definitely worth the investment.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:20:36]:

Would you talk some more just about the more broadly speaking, the common misperceptions that those of us who teach in higher ed might have, might hold about undocumented students?

Jesús Campos [00:20:48]:

I think I think there’s perhaps the biggest one, and and I teach as well, and and I try to keep this in mind whenever I teach my my students, is you have to understand that there’s a difference between someone who doesn’t who doesn’t know and doesn’t care to know. Right? Or or can’t know. And what I mean by that is is a lot of these things that that we take for granted as individuals who have been here, who lived who lived in and gone through higher ed and experienced it in a certain manner, you may feel certain things are sort of you know, everyone knows these sorts of things. With freshmen and and even sophomores or beyond and and higher ed, we can’t really assume that these things are are known to them. You’d be shocked to to hear how many times some of these students are sort of either embarrassed or ashamed to admit that they don’t they don’t understand certain things. You know, they’re just not at that level yet. And so the big I think that’s the biggest misconception is to say, okay. If they don’t understand it, it’s for certain reasons.

Jesús Campos [00:21:45]:

A lot of the times, they just haven’t even been taught it yet. A lot of times, they skate by without knowing certain things that are absolutely critical, and they sort of surface in higher ed that that they might have gotten away with in high school. And now they’re in your classroom, now they’re sitting in your lecture hall, and and you’re upfront with it. So instead of just dismissing them as as someone who either doesn’t care or doesn’t care to know, I would I would at least suggest that, you know, anyone teaching in higher ed take a step back and and consider the possibility that this may be the first time this this student has even heard the topic or or even heard what this even is.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:22:19]:

I find it helpful to be when when I’m teaching or when I’m attempting to learn from others, not just to say how we should do something, but also to talk some about what to avoid. What would you caution us to want to avoid when interacting with, when attempting to facilitate learning for students, some of whom may be undocumented?

Jesús Campos [00:22:39]:

I think that I’ll give you a if it’s okay, I’ll give you a quick story, a very quick one. When I was in community college, I told you I was this is my sophomore year, and I had a a pro a a lecturer named Roger Chapel. And he’s a he’s a great person. I’m gonna I’m gonna give an example of what not to do, but he’s a great great great lecturer. Let me change change my life, still keep in touch with him to this day. He was a police officer at the time, a detective, and, you know, we’re we’re criminal justice students. That’s my major. And he walks in with his detective suit on with a gun and a badge, and we’re like, oh, this guy’s you know, he’s the man kinda thing.

Jesús Campos [00:23:15]:

And and he gave he gave a great class. And one of the things he wanted to do is get us out there into the real world and say, hey. You if you and if you want to become police officers or work in the field, you should become familiar familiar with that life is like. So his assignment one of his assignments for the class was to do a police ride along. Right? In theory, that that’s a great assignment. Right? If your if your students are saying they wanna be, a police officer, having them join a police officer in a ride along, which is free, is a great assignment for college students to do and then write a short report on it. He then said, If you don’t do that, right? Meaning if you’re too lazy to do that or you don’t take the initiative to get out there, I’m gonna make you write a 50 or no. I’m sorry.

Jesús Campos [00:24:00]:

It was 20 page essay on on this this certain I forget what the book was. Meaning, no one’s gonna pick the no one who in their right mind would choose the right as a sophomore in college, you know, a 30 page essay instead of a police ride along. When When I turned in my assignment and I turned in my 30 page essay, he looked at me and just dumbfounded. Right? He was like, what are you doing? And I said, this is you know, I I I didn’t do the police ride along. This is my assignment. And then he asked me, well, why would you do why would you write this paper instead of the police ride along? And then, of course, I told him, well, I called the police station. You need a valid state ID to do the police ride along. I don’t have a valid state ID.

Jesús Campos [00:24:39]:

I can’t I couldn’t do it. So instead of making it a fuss or whatever, here’s the paper. Now I say that to say, you know and, again, he’s a great person, and I think at that point, a light bulb hit in his head. Mhmm. You know, certain certain things, and particularly and I teach criminal justice courses now. When we ask students to go out there, and it’s become more and more so significant now when more internships are being introduced right at the undergraduate level. We’re sending students more out into the real world, quote unquote, if you will, to go get real world experiences while they’re in college, which I think is a great thing. One of the things to look out for is you you may not appreciate it when it occurs, or you may not realize how often you get ID’d at at certain places or certain things.

Jesús Campos [00:25:21]:

And if you don’t have an ID, you’re very limited. So that’s just one one example. The overarching theme there is to not assume that you know, to really dig deep and think about if what I’m doing in the classroom is is is limited by anyone’s legal status here. Right? Is there anything I’m doing here where their legal status might have somewhat of an impact? My example is pretty extreme. I wasn’t allowed to actually participate in the in the thing here. All all the other students are raving about it. Oh, I went here. I was in this police car.

Jesús Campos [00:25:51]:

I went this and that. You know? And here I am dreams and aspirations of working in this field, and I can’t do it. Right? And so it doesn’t necessarily have to be assignments that are a % hindered by someone’s legal status, but there’s an array of things that we do that someone it it may a little bit, swayed or or sort of influenced because they just they don’t have the legal status or the capacity to do it for for whatever means.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:26:15]:

That is such a helpful example. I can still recall a student. There there was a I might get the details confused because it was such a long time ago, but some sort of travel opportunity. And I remember her wanting to go, and I just I had I just was not exposed to the I wasn’t getting it. Like, it took me a little while to figure out what she was saying, because I I just didn’t even understand how one would navigate society without having that, so she was prevented from flying in this case. But it was some sort of, like, a nonprofit sort of a trip to go on to serve other people in a different community. She had such a big heart, and she’s asking me. And I I also kinda thought, gosh.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:26:55]:

I I I didn’t say this out loud. Thank goodness. But I was thinking like, oh, I didn’t even realize that this was possible. So you’re asking me for help? I’m I’m feeling so, in inept at being able to help her at all. But but yeah, I mean, I think it’s kind of the same thing too where I didn’t even at the time maybe realize quite then that people who were undocumented were able to pursue higher education. And, I mean, that’s, of course, what’s inspiring to me, but a good thing for us to recognize if we haven’t already come to that realization in our our unique teaching contexts.

Jesús Campos [00:27:28]:

Yeah. And one thing to note and and you make a you brought up a really interesting point is another thing you asked any sort of suggestions I have. Another one is sort of piggybacking off what you said. That student and I, of course, I don’t know the student. I I don’t know I don’t know the example. But just from what you said, I can think back because I had similar moments where I’m talking in fact, one was with this police officer, who’s who’s giving lectures at night at this community college and other individuals where these individuals were the most influential people I’ve ever met in my life. Meaning, I viewed them, and now the person listening to this, I’m saying the student will view you as possibly the most educated, well spoken, successful person they’ve likely ever come across. And and so when they when your teacher came to you sort of seeking help I’m getting to that exactly, but I’m I’m kind of paraphrasing it or at least saying that in in my experience, that’s what I did.

Jesús Campos [00:28:25]:

It’s because to you, these students these students see you as as as this person who’s sort of like a hero to them. And and I saw my instructors like that. I remember when I I met the first person with the PhD, my my almost like my jaw dropped when I saw that their name was doctor, you know, John Smith or whatever it was. I had never met anyone with a PhD in my life. I’ve never seen those initials in front of anyone that I actually met in person. And now I’m emailing this person, and I have contact to them. And so a lot of the times and I experienced this myself with my students now. Whenever you become sort of an advocate and and you create an an inclusive curriculum in your classroom that that sort of has the openness.

Jesús Campos [00:29:05]:

And for me, I can use myself as an example with my lived experience, and I sort of build it I build that trust and look forward with my students. The number of times that they’ve emailed me about all kinds of things, you know, you would be surprised how many students email me asking for legal advice about their uncle who’s going through deportation process, asking me advice about their legal status if they’re a permanent resident, how they can become a US citizen. Not that I can give legal advice, but they’re coming to me because, frankly, you know, they have nowhere else to go, and and they see us in that light. So just positioning not that you have to have the answers, of course, but be ready to facilitate them and then be familiar with the resources that are available, either at the university or beyond that you can sort of relay them to. That would be Meaghan. Coming from you, a person of trust, it’s it’s a big deal.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:29:53]:

So it’s time, I guess, then for you to give us some homework because this is sounding I I was like, when there’s tangible actions we can take, we we on the podcast, people from listen from all over the world, so I’m gonna ask you an impossible question. But if you were to give us homework, we wanna become more familiar with what sort of resources might be available. Where where might we look within our communities or within our universities specifically?

Jesús Campos [00:30:18]:

Yes. So for for for my experience, the one thing I would look at is is scholarships that are open to non nonresidents. They’re out there. They’re they’re and usually, they’re they’re centered around sort of Hispanic students, not all the time. Right? But, a lot of Hispanic scholarships out there don’t require, US and you can always just read the fine print. They’ll be on there. Right? So so I would look for and I and I share with all my students, not just anyone in particular, just all my students, any opportunity that doesn’t require that. If there’s any sort of legal aids that you’re familiar with, nonprofits in your community, if quick Google search will find them in your in your town, wherever you may live or the nearest one or any national ones that you know are reputable that you can send them to.

Jesús Campos [00:30:58]:

Make sure they’re, you know, free or at least very low cost and they’re trustworthy to you. You can at least introduce it to them and say, hey. This is a good resource for you. I found a lot of a lot of the times, a lot of, mentorship programs also help. So, we have a couple here in Houston. So wherever you’re at, if you can get them in touch with any sort of mentorship program, Local agencies, state agencies, or county agencies sometimes have free immigration classes where they them and their parents or family members can learn more about the immigration process and and what their options are. You you’re not an immigration expert. So, I mean, I’m not asking you to be but the a facilitator of these resources is critical.

Jesús Campos [00:31:36]:

So I would start locally at the university and see what you have available. Any sort of counseling or or or any sort of help that they can obtain through there, I would find any sort of legal aid from nonprofits or or government agencies that’s available to them in town. And and, of course, lastly, I would just emphasize the scholarship opportunities be sent to them. A lot of these students just aren’t full time students in the way that that some of their stronger competitors are. I was I would go to my class sometimes if if work late if I work late, I installed cable for a long time. And I was in the ground and burying cable lines and installing them with another guy. And I did that during the day, and I would get dropped off at the university at night. I mean, sometimes I’d go in, like, muddy jeans and and shoes.

Jesús Campos [00:32:23]:

Right? I didn’t have time to research all the opportunities in the world. So if if you know of some that you know does it yearly, you know, just shooting around an email is very helpful in finding anyone anyone that you think would benefit all students, legal status considered, and that would be very helpful for them.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:32:41]:

Yeah. I’m thinking about the work of so many who talk about putting basic needs within syllabus to document those. So there might be a resource on and some people don’t like the phrase basic needs either, but ours is called the Living Well Community Resource Center at my university, but that’s kind of a consortium of of a place where they can get some resources related to food or housing to address those needs. And there’s a newly established, although I know some universities have had a lot longer than we have, but a fund for emergency expenses, that kind of a thing. And to have that in your syllabus where it can be linked to to whatever university resources may exist, that could be a helpful way too to keep that. But I I know a lot of that from everything that people have shared on this podcast before and my own learning is to help normalize it and to the extent actually, I guess, this will maybe be my final question before we get to our recommendations. Anything, Jesús, you’d like to share to people for whom being undocumented has been a part of their journey, and and now they find themselves in a teaching position that you may uniquely want to share with them guidance or encouragement of any kind?

Jesús Campos [00:33:54]:

Yeah. I mean, you’re saying if they themselves find themselves teaching like me?

Bonni Stachowiak [00:33:58]:

Yeah. Maybe they were undocumented, and today, they’re not anything that they might be thinking of a little bit differently, their unique identity and history. Yeah.

Jesús Campos [00:34:06]:

One thing and and I say this because I struggled with it as well, is I would say we want to make sure that we’re not putting our own experiences and and making it a fit all for for our students. I said it earlier, and and I’m very proud to say that I had a very loving and supporting family. I had a roof over my head at all times. Right? I had parents who they didn’t earn a a lot of money, but they had employment, right, for most of the for most of my life. And so my experience definitely wasn’t the worst experience. And so what happens sometimes is and this isn’t unique to this circumstance, but in general, we say, well, I did it, so why can’t you? Right? And when it comes to to individuals like myself who went through it, we kinda sent have some some individuals tend to have that sentiment and said, well, I put aside this and this, and I went to school. You know, I came to school dirty from working all day. And, you know, that’s easy to say, but I looking back, I can say I was fortunate to have an opportunity to have all those jobs to begin with because of my social my social capital that I that I sort of leaned in on from friends and family and and and individuals who gave me opportunities to work.

Jesús Campos [00:35:13]:

So I’m grateful for that. Some folks don’t have that. Right? So it’s very important to not put yourself in in other students’ shoes. Every every student is unique and is going through something entirely different. Individuals from different countries go through different processes. And so it’s not a one size fits all. If if the student wants to share some information with you, you know, if you make yourself available and they share that information with you, then it’s important for you to do just that. Get to know them, learn a little bit about their circumstance and see how you can be helpful to that one individual because the needs for one won’t be the same, you know, and and and these students are all very special and unique.

Jesús Campos [00:35:49]:

And it’s important that we get to know them as such and then hopefully at least be a vessel of some knowledge and information and and guide them to to to their ultimate goal, which is being successful in your classroom. But if they’re not successful, if they don’t have the food, they don’t have the resources, then they’re gonna be very hard pressed to sit through through a college class.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:36:06]:

Such good advice for all of us. And I’m especially as you’re sharing that thinking about that, I’m I’m reminded that sometimes what someone wants is not to be fixed, not to be taken on as a special project, but actually just wants to be listened to. And you may be in a unique position to be able to listen with more authenticity or or empathy. Sympathy, actually, I think is the kind where you’ve experienced it yourself, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re even opening the door to be asking for anything other than just a listening ear. So that’s really helpful advice for all of us.

Jesús Campos [00:36:40]:

Yeah. And every you know, some students like I said, I’ve had students who email me their legal documents and I’m like, woah, woah, woah, woah. You know, I didn’t I didn’t ask for I can’t help you exactly with that. But come see me after class tomorrow and and I can tell you sort of what I think and and the best practices, and then I’ll direct them where I think it’s best. At at my university, at the University of Saint Thomas where I teach here in Houston, we have offices and and and and resources for those types of student, specifically individuals that are, like, case workers that can help them out. So we have a lot of resources at hand, so I usually just facilitate them. But always just be optimistic and let them know that, hey. They matter.

Jesús Campos [00:37:20]:

We want them to succeed. And, yes, they’re facing unique challenges. But if the universities has the resources or the city has the resources, I’m more than glad to facilitate them. So that’s always that’s always how I see it because if we can’t do that, then they’re not gonna be successful in the classroom. So that’s it’s a an obvious impediment to to success.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:37:40]:

Well, this is the time in the show where we each get to share our recommendations. I have two today, and they are both musical. And what is unique about them is that they both are very present and very today, and they also go all the way back to my childhood. So Cynthia Erivo has been getting quite attention for those who are not familiar with her work. She was in the recent production of Wicked, the movie, the musical, and I found a couple of performances. I I you gotta love YouTube algorithms because they get served up to me so perfectly. This is perfectly for me.

Jesús Campos [00:38:17]:

So I think they know us better than we know ourselves sometimes.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:38:20]:

It’s actually kind of frightening.

Jesús Campos [00:38:21]:

To that point.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:38:22]:

It’s really frightening. I actually need to be better about reviewing my history because sometimes if the kids get in there, then things get a little janky. But so two musical performances by her. The first one takes me back all the way to my childhood, and it is her performing Edelweiss for Julie Andrews, and that takes me back to my childhood. I can still remember going to an outdoor theater in San Diego and getting to see The Sound of Music. And I’ve shared this podcast this I’ve shared this story before in the podcast, but it’s been so many years. It was an outdoor theater, and every time the the airplanes would fly over San Diego Airport, the whole orchestra, every performer on the stage, everybody would freeze, and then they would get started again. So I have such a such a fond memories of watching The Sound of Music.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:39:11]:

So that took me back, but then, of course, she’s so becoming her music and, just so beautiful. It’s fun to have something from today and then something all the way back. And the second one kinda goes like that, although not quite back quite as far in my childhood. But the second musical performance of hers I want to recommend is the song nothing compares to you, which some of you might remember was originally sang and written by Prince and then covered by Sinead O’Connor. And it’s just a lovely performance as well. She kinda has her own spin on it. And I just wanna recommend to everybody if you want to listen to music that may or may not remind you of your childhood, but by a very current and growing in popularity musician in her own right. Those are the two links I encourage you to click on from today’s episode.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:40:00]:

And, Jesús, I will pass it over to you for whatever you’d like to recommend.

Jesús Campos [00:40:03]:

Sure. Well, those are first of all, those are great recommendations. Mine’s not as fun, but hopefully a little Back when I was in grad school in Texas Southern University, we had a guest speaker who came and and spoke to the university. A gentleman named César Cuahtémoc García Hernández, which is a very, it’s a native Aztec name, if you will, pre Columbian name, Cuahtémoc García Hernández. And he has a book called Crimigration Law. And basically, he’s criminal and immigration combined. And the notion and and the main topic and and his primary focus with this book is how America formally sort of separated the two sorts of legal systems.

Jesús Campos [00:40:44]:

On one hand, we have criminal law. On the other hand, we had immigration law, each with their own court systems, each with their own prosecutors, etcetera. And what Cesar does is he goes down and and and shows how there’s sort of been a mesh and a crossover between the two where increasingly, a lot of a lot of these two, if you will, types of offenses are being meshed into one. And so both from a legal standpoint and a technical standpoint, but also from a social standpoint, we’re viewing immigrants more as criminals than we have in the past. So he does a really great job of sort of explaining the the the court cases for those interested that have that have segued our way, transitioned our way into how we view immigration now, which has has has had that increased lens of of, criminal elements of legal. So it’s it’s a very interesting book. I was fascinated when I read it years ago, and I would anyone who’s interested in immigration and sort of how the the societal views have altered towards the more criminal standpoint in recent times, should check it out.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:41:44]:

And and those of us that live in The United States are probably gonna need to be doing our homework even more as it relates to immigration in the coming days and years. That’s my little Yeah.

Jesús Campos [00:41:54]:

Concept. It’s a bigger topic than it probably ever has been. And and, and the the way it’s being viewed and the impact that it has on our society, and it’s all changing. So it’s very fascinating stuff. I think the book is a few years old now, but he did a great job of sort of laying the foundation of of the court cases that that led us to where we are today.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:42:14]:

Thank you so much for joining me on today’s episode, for encouraging us, for giving us your wisdom, and for telling such an important part of what has made you who you are today.

Jesús Campos [00:42:24]:

No problem. Thank you for having me. It’s been an absolute pleasure.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:42:29]:

Thanks once again to Jesús Campos for joining me on today’s episode. Today’s episode was produced by me, Bonni Stachowiak. It was edited by the ever talented Andrew Kroeger. Podcast production support was provided by the amazing Sierra Priest. If you have yet to sign up for the teaching in higher ed update, it comes once a week to your inbox. It has all the most recent show notes and episode links and some other goodies that don’t show up in those show notes. Head over to teachinginhighered.com slash subscribe to get those emails coming in. And I thank you so much for listening and being a part of the teaching and higher ed community.

Teaching in Higher Ed transcripts are created using a combination of an automated transcription service and human beings. This text likely will not represent the precise, word-for-word conversation that was had. The accuracy of the transcripts will vary. The authoritative record of the Teaching in Higher Ed podcasts is contained in the audio file.