Bonni Stachowiak [00:00:00]:
Today on episode number 554 of the Teaching in Higher Ed podcast, classroom assessment techniques, formative feedback tools for college and university teachers with Todd Zakrajsek. Production Credit: Produced by Innovate Learning, Maximizing Human Potential.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:00:25]:
Welcome to this episode of Teaching in Higher Ed. I'm Bonni Stachowiak, and this is the space where we explore the art and science of being more effective at facilitating learning. We also share ways to improve our productivity approaches, so we can have more peace in our lives and be even more present for our students. I'm excited to be welcoming back to the show, Todd Zakrajsek. He is the author or co author of 7 books over the past 8 years and advises faculty on how to create a motivating, creative, and engaging classroom community. Dr. Todd Zakrajsek currently directs 4 Lilly conferences on college and university teaching and has served on numerous educational related boards, journals, and work groups in the area of teaching and learning. Todd is an international speaker who's requested regularly for keynote presentations and campus workshops, having published and presented widely on the topic of effective teaching and student learning. And Todd's coming back today to share about the book, the 3rd edition of Classroom Assessment Techniques: Formative Feedback Tools for College and University Teachers.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:01:50]:
And this book, I'm reading from the here is a practical research based handbook for using assessment to improve learning. This completely revised and updated third edition of classroom assessment techniques provides a research based engaging guide to assessing student learning where it matters most at course and classroom levels. Informed by the latest international educational research and 30 years of classroom assessment practice, This practical handbook is designed for postsecondary teachers from all disciplines, faculty and academic developers, and assessment professionals. It offers field tested guidance, tools, and advice for planning, designing, and implementing formative assessment in face to face, hybrid, and fully online classes. Todd Zakrajsek, welcome back to Teaching in Higher Ed.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:02:46]:
Oh, I'm so excited to be here. I every time I come here, it's so much fun, and you are amazing. So thank you for giving me the opportunity.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:02:52]:
I should have warned you before we started recording. I feel I always get so excited to talk to you, but I woke up this morning at 3 in the morning and couldn't fall back asleep. So if I kinda get a little bit wacky, we're gonna do some different things. We're trying some different things on this episode, but I probably should've warned you about the utter lack lack of sleep. And I think sleep's gonna actually come up in the end of our conversation too. So we're gonna we're gonna do a sleep sandwich, I guess, on this on this particular episode.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:03:19]:
That's okay. I don't mind at all because there's a whole chapter in sleep on my book on the new science of learning or the essentials of new science learning. Two different books. Please get them at your local bookstore. There. Got my plug in. Boom. There we go.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:03:30]:
I love it. But lack of lack of sleep can do it. But what is it what is this you're going to expose me to today?

Bonni Stachowiak [00:03:36]:
What we are doing is, first, we are talking about a time that we have been assessed recently.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:03:44]:
Oh, that's interesting. Since you came up with it, I'm going to insist that you go first to allow me some moment to think because you have to do it too. Right? Yeah. If I'm gonna do it, you should do it. Fair turn around.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:03:56]:
I chuckle though. You're so right. I chuckle because I don't get assessed very often. And when I do, I get these ridiculous things that I know are ridiculous in my head, but I still can't convince myself. So, for example, the anti sexual harassment training course that the state of the state of California requires you to take that if you either are in a teaching position and or in a management position. And I will be convinced that if I get a single question wrong that somehow alarms start going off at the university, like, like like, helicopters are gonna come down. I mean, it's just so funny that that I'll I'll be like, wait. That question was at I I'll I'll just get embarrassed when as if our HR department could possibly have time to care that I didn't get a perfect 100%.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:04:48]:
So that same feeling was coming up, but it was for a test I hadn't taken. Dave and I were trying to remember when we took this this test last so it is the written test with your driver's license, but but since I have a close to perfect driving record, knock on this is me, sound effect, but not really. Knocking on wood, I have a nearly perfect driving record for my whole time. And and so I just haven't had to take the the test in such a long time that a couple of weeks ago, I got the choice. I was faced with a choice. Take the test or take an online course that included some assessment within it. And I went the take an online course with some assessment. And the only notable thing there, and then I'll I'll ask you to share.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:05:31]:
The only notable thing with that course was that they asked me in my practice part of the of the course to look at signs and match the sign that I could see with the words that went so, like, curvy road ahead. I looked at the sign. It's yellow. It's got the black curve that's curvy road ahead. It was so easy for me. But then when it got to the actual part that was scored that was going to keep me or help me get that real ID that I need to have by March of 2025 to travel anywhere, It wasn't a picture of a sign. Instead, it was a paragraph describing a sign, and it's like you're looking at an octagon with the something pointing down with this. And I thought, like, that's not how I take in signs.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:06:17]:
I look at them and they're they're

Todd Zakrajsek [00:06:19]:
Yeah.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:06:19]:
Pulls it, but I don't I don't remember what color the text was exactly. So that was No. And I felt all nervous, but I did pass. And I I now am I have my temporary real ID, but soon I'm gonna be flying with an actual real ID. And I the whole world is my oyster now, Todd. So, now now it's your turn.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:06:40]:
Well, one thing real quickly first is that's ridiculous because you should always study and recall information in the same modality. And secondly, you should actually, with a road test, is what you're gonna experience. And you're never gonna be driving down the road with a with a passenger saying, oh, no. Up ahead is a triangle with a no. It's just ridiculous. So

Bonni Stachowiak [00:07:00]:
Downward with red font. Yes. It was ridiculous. And you know why I think they must have done it? It must have been that whatever software they used to build it Oh. That the summative sorry, that the formative assessment tools allowed more visual and that the that the summative scored ones didn't. That whatever they them they what they were probably held back by technology because who would wanna do that on purpose? I think it was just a technological limitation.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:07:29]:
Yeah. Well, it's a DMV, though. You never know what they'll do on purpose. Hey. I don't wanna burst your oyster, which is mixing all kinds of things there. But when I used my real ID at the airport, they said, do do you have a passport? Because those give our machines fits.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:07:42]:
Oh, no. All this

Todd Zakrajsek [00:07:44]:
They're gonna fix it. But I don't know about other states, but in North Carolina, there's a little area that's it's still plastic and everything, but it's carved out. So you see right through it. And, apparently, the machine doesn't like that there's a hole in the ID. So, anyway, they'll sort it out. They're good peoples. Okay. So I get to go next? Yes.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:08:00]:
Okay. The last time I've been judged?

Bonni Stachowiak [00:08:03]:
Assessed. Yeah.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:08:04]:
Because I'm getting judged all the time. I just have this. Okay. It's not paranoia if it's true, though. Right? I mean, everybody's judging you. So I've been thinking about this just while you're answering a question, and it just occurred to me because I don't normally take a lot of tests, but, actually, I do more than I actually was thinking I would. I used the word actually, like, four times right there. Because I work in a medical school, I have to pass certain tests because I'm in a medical school, they assume that you're going to be in a hospital.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:08:32]:
So one example is a TB test. So I have to take a test and pass it to demonstrate that I understand TB rules, so that if I'm walking down a hallway and there's a ventilation system, I know what to walk into and what not to. Interesting. You and I have been so similar through the years, because when you were saying that how you didn't wanna get any wrong, the very first one of these tests I took, I I read the material. I went and looked up supplemental stuff. I made sure to clarify everything. And then I took the test, and I got a 100%. And I told one of the docs there, and it's like, oh, I took that TB test.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:09:05]:
I got a 100%. And they said, okay. I said, yeah. This is really tough, though. And they said, what do you mean tough? And I said, well, the studying part. And they said, no. You take the test and whatever you get wrong, you retake the test and then you they'll shuffle the questions, but it's not that hard to remember. And so you just take it 3 or 4 times till you get it right.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:09:21]:
And I said, wouldn't they hate you for that? What isn't that a problem? He said, nobody looks at that. But the same way, I did not wanna get a single question wrong because, I mean, the the TB police would come and get me. So yeah. And I'm happy to report that in my first two years of working in the medical school, I got a 100% on every one of the tests. And since that time,

Bonni Stachowiak [00:09:40]:
yeah, I just log in and answer the questions and then redo the ones I miss.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:09:44]:
You learned Look at me. Turned into an old physician. By the way, those of you in the listening audience, now you know the difference between a PhD and a doctor physician because PhDs will study like crazy, and physicians will just go through

Bonni Stachowiak [00:09:57]:
it the best they can.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:09:58]:
There you go.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:09:59]:
We are so fortunate today to be able to I'm

Todd Zakrajsek [00:10:01]:
just but I gotta say, though. I'm just kidding. I just I'm just joking because it just occurred to me, you will have some physicians listening, and I don't wanna the honorable profession.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:10:10]:
Good people. Honorable profession. Yes. We are so fortunate today to be talking about an entirely different kind of assessment rather than one that we might dread, rather than one that may not produce the kinds of results that was intended by those designing the assessments. We're going to be talking about classroom assessment techniques today. Would you first tell us what a CAT is?

Todd Zakrajsek [00:10:37]:
I will, and I will just, tell you once again how much I admire your ability to segue. That is so good. And when

Bonni Stachowiak [00:10:43]:
it works, it works, and when it doesn't work, it works.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:10:46]:
Good. I loved it. So a classroom assessment technique. The concept of a classroom assessment technique overall is that's what the CAT is, classroom assessment technique, is that you you can kind of find out at any given moment what your students actually know. And it can be in real time as you're teaching, but it also helps your students to know because, you know, it's funny, there's a lot of things that we don't know that we don't know until we try to do it, and that's when we realize it. And what is kind of an interesting concept in my head to think about is sometimes how long you may not you how long you go without realizing you don't know it. A quick example is you could go to the mall, park your car very quickly, you run-in, you know, it's a lot of sales going on and people are all over the place. You shop for 2 hours and you come out and you think, Oh my gosh, I don't remember where my car is.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:11:34]:
You didn't actually know where your car was for about 2 hours, but you didn't know that until you tried to find it. A cat is like that. It's that moment where you say to the students, can you list 5 items that we talked about? Can you come up with an application? Can you tell me what's causing you a grief? And at that moment, the student can say, oh, I thought I knew this, but I can't really answer this. So it's really helpful. And then we, as faculty members, get can get all kinds of data and information, not only about what the students are learning, we also get to see more in real time when we're effective. Because, quite frankly, if you ask your students some kind of a classroom assessment technique in the end of the class, if if 10% get it wrong, then those 10% need to work at it. If 90% get it wrong, you didn't teach it well. So it's really helpful for us to know too.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:12:21]:
Quick feedback for us.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:12:23]:
Yes. Well, today's podcast interview, as I shared, is going to be a little bit different. First time we're trying this. And today's interview has was inspired by a session that I was able to attend at the 2024 pod conference. And the host was Emily Pitts Donahoe from she's the associate director of instructional support in the Center For Excelalence in Teaching and Learning and Lecturer of Writing and Rhetoric at the University of Mississippi. And in this session, they were drawing from improvisation, specifically the idea of yes, and, and their theme was all around igniting your pedagogical imagination. It was so much fun, Todd. I wish you had been in that session.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:13:11]:
I know you were keeping quite busy in the pod conference as well. And so today, what we're gonna be doing is that this book and I guess we should probably say that we're talking about a book first. So let me press pause on myself and ask you to tell to tell the listeners what book we're talking about today, and then I will, unpause myself and explain a little bit more how we're gonna play this game.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:13:33]:
Well, that's that part where you just you're so familiar with something you don't even think about the other side of the perspective there because, yes, I was explaining what a CAT is, but most of the listeners have probably found classroom assessment techniques by searching on the Internet and finding them. Where those actually all came together in the beginning was a book by Pat Cross and Tom Angelo in 1988, and then the second edition came out in 1990 3. And I will just say quickly, this book exploded. This is one of the most popular highest selling books like in the history of higher education. And the reason is that the book was how you do find out whether your students are learning or not. And what Pat and Tom figured out was we need to put together to this material to know this, but they did that before it was, like, mid nineties to late nineties was when we said we should shift from teaching to learning, which means stop focusing on teaching, start focusing on how students learn. But then people are like, how do we know if students are learning? And this book had been out at about 3, 4 years at that time. So anybody who's listening who's near my age and, by the way, hi to all my friends.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:14:38]:
We all had this book. In fact, many of us grew up teaching as this was our primary book, and so it was huge. The second edition being 1993 means this third edition came out 2023 30 years later. So there are many of you out there who probably never heard of this book because the last 10 or 15 years, it was just an old book out there. But, yeah, it was a very important book for the higher education movement.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:15:03]:
So the way we're gonna be playing today's game, again, which is inspired from the session at pod Yes. On igniting your pedagogical imagination. Today, we're gonna be looking at the different categories of classroom assessment techniques. Okay. We're gonna have you explain each one of the categories, and then I am using the wheel of names. And if listeners have not heard of the wheel of names, it is so much fun, wheelofnames.com. Now when Emily was at the pod conference, they had a big wheel. I'm a sucker for a big wheel.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:15:36]:
You spin it and get all the clicky and all the things, and they had something like 50 different ones, and so wherever it would land. Well, we we're we don't have a big wheel in front of us. So we have a a virtual wheel, and any of you could go to wheel of names dot com. It's really fun. You can create an account. It's free. You can change the colors. You can put people's names up there.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:15:54]:
You can put concepts up there. All kinds of ways that you can use the wheel of names. Today, I will be taking the different items, the different cats underneath each of the categories and then spinning the wheel. And then Todd and I are both going to first, Todd's gonna explain a little bit about what that technique is, but then we'll think about an introduction to psychology class as an example because Todd and I I know enough to be dangerous, and Todd knows a lot more than than I do. But, we we both are at least familiar enough of what would be addressed in a introduction to psychology class, and then we'll kinda spitball on how we might think about using it. And we'll we'll do yes and a little bit of improv as as we go. So the first Alright. Category we're gonna do, Todd oh, yes, please.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:16:39]:
I don't know if and I if we said this, I apologize for their petition. But just for the listeners who aren't sure, there are 50 cats. So in the book, there's 50 of them and there's 10 categories. So we're not gonna explain all 50 as I'm assuming, Bonni, we're not gonna explain all 50. We're picking from them. But just so everybody know there's this is gonna be a sample of probably 8 or 9 out of the 50. So yeah. Yep.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:16:59]:
Alright. So first category we're using is knowledge. Oh my.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:17:04]:
Oh, knowledge recall and understanding was the first category, I believe, the first chapter, area with cats.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:17:09]:
Yep. And and you are going to share a little bit about the category while I get the wheel of names set up.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:17:16]:
Excellent. Basically, well, in each one of these cat categories, it's the things we do expect students to do overall and how do we know that they're actually getting them. So this first one is knowledge and recall and understanding is, you know, first levels of bloom is how do we know when the students know, how do we know when they can remember things, and how do we know if they understand. So it's literally as it's titled on this one, is how do we how do we know if the students know the basic foundational aspects of some concept?

Bonni Stachowiak [00:17:44]:
Alright. I will be spinning the wheel, and then Todd will kick us off with an example. Does it

Todd Zakrajsek [00:17:49]:
have the little ticking noise and everything?

Bonni Stachowiak [00:17:51]:
It does. A ticking noise. Isn't that so satisfying?

Todd Zakrajsek [00:17:54]:
It is. That if without the ticking noise, I wouldn't even wanna play this game.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:17:57]:
I know. I know. Sticky.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:18:01]:
Oh, excellent. Oh, this is the empty outline. Okay.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:18:04]:
You hear all the cheering that went on? Yeah.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:18:07]:
So fun. It's it's like extra pressure though. Now I feel like all this cheering audience and everything. So an empty outline basically and there's there's different variations you can do on this one. But, essentially, what it is is you create an outline and you leave blanks in the outline, And then we see to what extent the students are able to fill in the outline. Psychology, I will tell you, Bonni, I can jump right into that, is I've used this as a framework. When I taught psychology, I've taught many, many times and a long, long time ago, my students were struggling with essay tests. And so what I would do is I would help them out by, I would actually put together an essay question.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:18:40]:
And in class, we would go over these things and I would give them most of the answer, and then they had to fill in the other parts of the answer. And then as the semester proceeded, I gave them less and less of this outline, and they had to fill in more and more of it. And we could find out if they knew because if they could fill in the outline, at least they knew the foundational stuff. And that's what this is all about. Just they didn't understand higher complex things, but they knew the things that went in those blanks.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:19:06]:
Something that's coming to mind for me in an introduction to psychology class, and, of course, you and I are recording at the end of a year, at the end of a semester. I keep thinking about right now, Todd, just how much gets locked away in a learning management system once a course has ended. So a nice thing about an empty outline would be a student might potentially save this in a notes app of their own and have access to this resource even after a class is over. So as somebody who my undergraduate major was in social sciences with psychology being the biggest component of it, and I, even in my organizational leadership degrees since then, have certainly revisited those topics. And I I love that that back when I was in college, we might, you know, have a cassette table, though I don't I don't have any of those those leftover, but I do have notes. I both have I just have some handwritten notes from my college classes, and enjoy going back and looking and seeing the kinds of things that they were talking about back then. I also, by the way, have some papers, but, sadly, they're not electronic. They are paper copy.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:20:09]:
My husband is 6 years younger than me, so he he gets more digital assets that he can go back and revisit as well.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:20:16]:
You know, I'm sorry. We gotta just pause for just a second here too because I was visiting my wife's we're one of my wife's family, and we went to the community church there. It was so funny because they started the sermon, and I opened up the bulletin. It was an empty outline. And there were little pencils all over the place, and I looked around and all these people had picked up their pencil and they had the bulletin, and they were filling it in. And I just thought, oh, good. He's using a cat during church. So

Bonni Stachowiak [00:20:42]:
When you said it, the first thing I thought of was church, for sure. Yeah. We many many of us would have seen that. Yep. Alright. So the next category is application. Would you tell us about application, and then I'll spin the wheel?

Todd Zakrajsek [00:20:54]:
Yeah. I mean, application is another one that, we pick topics that I think are fairly self explanatory is to what extent do you know if your students can apply the things that they have learned? So I understand the concept, but now what do I do with it? Alright. Let's spin the wheel. How would we know if students know?

Bonni Stachowiak [00:21:13]:
This one's not quite as satisfying because there's not as many, so we don't get as many tickety tails. Alright. What is that?

Todd Zakrajsek [00:21:20]:
Oh, you've got the r s q c 2. There's the there's all these reading techniques they do. The and this one's kind of a cat a version of this too. This is recall, summarize, question, connect, and comment. And, essentially, what we ask the students to do is we have a concept and they have to recall and and summarize what it is, but then they have to ask some kind of a question, how would you do this, what would you do with it, and then they can connect it to something else. And then, overall, they just do this judgment to comment thing. So it really boils down to being able to summarize it, tie it to something else, and then explain it. It's kind of the gross way of looking at it.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:21:58]:
I got an email just today from someone asking a question that's a lot larger than you and I will have time to tackle, but he he is essentially asking a a little bit sounded like he's struggling because he feels like his students are using artificial intelligence

Todd Zakrajsek [00:22:15]:
Oh, yeah.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:22:15]:
Way too much of the time to summarize things. So he says what what he does right now and, you know, here, read this 2 or 3 page article and then write me a paragraph summary. And as you were sharing, Todd, one of the things I'm thinking about that's a benefit of using a classroom assessment technique, which could, of course, be used in an asynchronous class as well. Right? It would have to be Yeah. In an actual in a room setting, that kind of a thing. But but to wanna mix it up a little bit. So it's gonna be fairly easy for us to be able to put a 3 page PDF in a artificial intelligence tool and say, hey. Can you give me a one paragraph summary? So, yeah, your your students might feel, like they're gonna do that.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:22:57]:
But if we have different techniques that we're doing to to to be able to stretch them a little bit, then that's just gonna change things. So it's gonna be more interesting too, but then we might be able to match it a little bit better. So this this recall, summarize, question, connect, and comment is one that we could do. Alright. The next category is Oh, wait.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:23:16]:
I didn't get to one real fast on mine. Oh, yeah. So begin sometimes, yeah, sometimes the beginning of class, you just you have certain vocabulary that's really, really important. So we might be adding a section on metacognition. And I might just say, okay, everybody. Metacognition. We're gonna do an RSQC2 here. And what I want you to do is write down metacognition, summarize it real quickly.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:23:36]:
What what's a question you might ask about metacognition? How would you apply it? And so I could use that one just to kinda make sure that they are understanding the foundational concept as we move into a material.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:23:46]:
Alright. Next category is problem solving. Tell us about for our team, problem

Todd Zakrajsek [00:23:51]:
solving category. Whew. Well, as we move up the cognitive ladder here, we get to a spot where we just wanna know to what extent can students solve problems. So this isn't, like, given being given piece of information. It's now kinda pulling things together and coming up with a solution.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:24:05]:
Alright. Problem solving.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:24:06]:
Let's Problem solve. In the wheel. Yay. Hooray. This is fun. So fun. Oh, what's the principle? I just keep keep cheering. It's really cool.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:24:23]:
So in this section, we can ask students things like what's missing. We give them a a topic and what's missing. We could say, you know, predict what's coming up and everything. And for the what's the principle, it's just essentially a here's the concept and what's the underlying principle for this. And some of these cats, by the way, are very elaborate and some of them are very, very simple. And this one is particularly one where you just say what is the principle, but it's under problem solving.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:24:50]:
And so in an introduction to psychology course, how might we use problem solving in general and and specifically what's the principle around problem solving?

Todd Zakrajsek [00:25:00]:
Yeah. This is this is one where I kinda got in trouble. I think I could use this one for an example as I thought, and I'll do this real quickly, is is I wanted to talk to the students real quickly about free will versus basically things that are determined. And so determinism versus free will. And everybody feels like, you know, you got free will. You do whatever you want anytime you want. And so in a class of 200 students, I said, hey, everybody. What we're gonna do in here is a little different.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:25:21]:
You're gonna come up with a syllabus. 2 things, I have to be able to assess you fairly. I have to be able to give you a grade at the end of semester, and you have to be fair to your colleagues. So just because it's good for you, we have to compromise and do what's good for the group. And so they thought, are you kidding me? And this was back in, like, 1993, 1992, maybe. And so active learning wasn't all that big, but I got them into groups of 4 and said, how many tests do you want? Do you wanna drop the lowest test? And they came up with a syllabus. Five exams, drop the lowest test. And we talked through each category and everything.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:25:53]:
When they were done, we were writing this all on the chalkboard. Back then, we had chalkboards. But we wrote it all out. I had it done. And I said, okay. Great. Well, this is the end of the first class period. I have a little reading for you.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:26:02]:
And then I started to pass out this stapled pack of papers. And as I was passing them out, the first couple of students says, what the heck? And I turn on and says, I'll be back with you in a minute. And then somebody else in the room says, what is this? And as I handed them out, it was their syllabus that they had just come up with. And so I got back to the front of the room, and I said, what's the principle? Mhmm. And what we were really after is that you can think that you had free will, and you determined what your class was going to be. But by me talking and kind of facilitating it, I took you to exactly where I wanted you to be, and you didn't know it. There's not as much free will in your world as you think there is. And, so we talked a bit, but they came up with some of the that's the what's the principal? Big moment.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:26:47]:
By the way, a rookie teaching mistake because I was early in my career because they did not trust me for anything the entire semester. It's like, oh, why do you wanna know about this? Why don't you just tell us what we're thinking? So it was a little mistake there. But the principal part was right there. It was fun to do.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:27:02]:
What you just shared, Todd, reminds me so much of my conversation with Steven Bloch Schulman on episode 491. And he talked about his the title of the episode is teaching through experiences. He's a philosophy professor, and one of the things he talked about is his his assertion is we really only can teach through it, but you're not really learning unless you're experiencing that. So what you just described and he and he did also have some cautionary notes of where he's gotten himself into some trouble around the issues related to trust as as you described. But what a powerful thing that that example you just gave. I can imagine that I that would be something I'd remember decades later of of in the in the kind of a principle that I could carry across so many different contexts. Yeah. Oh.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:27:48]:
Yeah. I I did have several students comment later in the semester. And even because it was a small campus, I'd see the students a lot later, and they'd say, you know, that was interesting because, like, I would go home and do this thing, and my mom would say, what do you wanna do? And I'm sitting there thinking, oh, this is like doctors at Kreizik. And she knows what what we want she wants us to do, and we're gonna end up there. And so they would she the one student said that, well, we played along, and we ended up exactly where mom wanted us. And yeah. She just said, people are saying too, is you this is around you a lot. But, yeah, you know, it worked out well.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:28:17]:
I'm excited about this next category because it's certainly something that many of us struggle with instilling in students, and that's analysis and specifically critical thinking. Tell us about the category, and then we'll spin the wheel. This This has been

Todd Zakrajsek [00:28:29]:
one of those tough ones for a long time as faculty members to get students to think critically. And I do think, as I say think here, is that in the age of AI, I'm gonna do a quick little AI sidebar here, is that we we were we've learned a certain way and we've amassed knowledge in a certain way and it's allowed us to do some amazing things like create this AI complex concept. And if we're not careful, the students coming behind us will not learn these analysis and critical thinking skills to the extent that they can actually deal with the thing that we've created. So helping students to really think critically is hard, and getting away from just asking chat g p t, what do you think? But, yeah, really important concept. Hugely important.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:29:16]:
Alright. I am gonna spin the wheel.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:29:18]:
Oh, good.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:29:22]:
So stressed. No way. Wait till you hear the cheering, though. It'll make you feel better. Yay. Well, I thought it this one caught my eyes. I was kinda hoping for this one.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:29:33]:
This is no. This is blooming. This is, blooming was one that, this is one Tom came up with. I thought it was kinda neat. Blooming basically is using Bloom's taxonomy. And through Bloom's taxonomy is basically looking at having students think through what does it mean to go from understanding to analysis and to critical thinking and synthesis and and those types of things. And so that was the concept of blooming.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:30:00]:
And in an introduction to psychology class, what are we thinking we might use blooming for? I mean, I can picture it. So Yeah.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:30:08]:
I mean, actually, this could be used for almost any con back to concepts again is, I'll go back to the metacognition again. We can come back to it, and we can help the students understand, oh, I know. I'm gonna shift gears on myself here. And this is an example I use in my workshops when I do them at times is if I say right now, you don't know anything about what I'm gonna explain to you, but I'm gonna explain it, and we'll go from there. So in Michigan, there are 5 Great Lakes that surround Michigan. It's Huron, Ontario, Michigan, Erie, and Superior. And of those 5 Great Lakes, Superior is the deepest. Now I come back a couple days later, and I give you a quiz, and it says, which of these lakes is the deepest? Is it Erie, Superior, Huron, or Michigan? And you say Superior.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:30:48]:
At that moment, I don't know if you know what a lake is. Because what I said was, here are 5 lakes. This one is the deepest. Later, I said, which of these is the deepest? All you had to do is memorize superior and deep. You may not know what deep is. You may not know what a lake is. So for students, to help them to understand that that's a level that you can be at where you think you know something, but then to move from that to understand what does that look like, what does analysis look like, what does synthesis look like. So you walk the student up the Bloom's taxonomy.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:31:19]:
And the reason I get excited about that one, it's extremely important for students to understand the difference between, in their critical thinking minds, the difference between recognizing something and knowing it. Because we've all played games with our friends and I I don't know if you remember. Oh, my gosh. Remember the old town blocking out of Bonni, the game with all the questions, and we had to isn't that awful? For field pursuit? For field pursuit. Oh, okay. Yeah.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:31:45]:
Yeah. It's a little pieces of pie pieces of pie all over again.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:31:48]:
Pie. See, they even have the I love pie. But I remember playing the game with with my family, and my sister-in-law would say, oh gosh, Todd. This is a baby question. And then she would ask the question, and then I'd get it wrong. And she'd, oh my gosh. You're a professor, and you can't even get this right. And the after the third time she did it, and this comes right back to my classroom type situation, I said, hey, Darlene.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:32:08]:
On the next question, here's what I want you to do. You can read the question, but do not turn it over and look at the answer. Just read the question. And she said, okay. And she read the question. And I said, oh my gosh. That's a baby question. What do you think it is? And then I will I can write it down right now.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:32:21]:
And the point was very quickly is because she would look at the answer and recognize the concepts in the answer, she thought she knew it, but she was doing recognition, not actually understanding. And so helping somebody to understand that is and think critically about it is really important, or they believe they know so much more than they actually do, and that is dangerous.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:32:43]:
I had so much fun this last semester. I taught for I've taught it many, many times, but it's personal leadership and productivity. Oh, that

Todd Zakrajsek [00:32:50]:
sounds great.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:32:51]:
We're working all the way through and toward the end of the semester. There's a lot more things that just don't have right answers. But you would need to use critical thinking to make an argument across any number of things, and I would put things in I was really enjoying using Canva templates. Canva, you could create a free account in there. I have a paid account, but students can all so I know there's no cost barrier for them. And so I would have this template, and it would show the GTD, as in getting things done, workflow template. And, essentially, I'd have all these scratch pieces of paper sitting around, and they'd have to sort them. But one one example would be, you're planning or the it was it was things that would come into your life.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:33:35]:
So it would be like a text message or an email because they wanna plan grandma's birthday, a grandparent's birthday. Okay. Todd, you could put that practically anywhere on this map. Yes. And you would be right as long as you made an argument for it. And I was so delighted just to see them, because I think I had built enough trust with them that they knew I didn't play games. I used a lot of specifications grading, so we're not playing games here. If you meet the specifications, I'm not gonna sit here and play around with you, you know, and your points and all that.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:34:07]:
And so it was so fun for them to say, well, I think you're maybe thinking it would go on a project. But you know what? My mom loves to plan for my grandma's birthday, so I'm gonna delegate it. Because delegate is another place they could've recorded it. And just to watch them use their critical thinking. And and I do think you have to build up a certain level of trust for students to recognize that you actually want them to use critical thinking. And many times, there can be more than one answer to the same questions.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:34:36]:
That is really a good example too. I really love the example. But for for the listeners out there, I mean, this is so, so important for the students to understand that you can you can discuss a point and nobody knows the answer at the end, but you have thought through it. You now have a different cognitive level ways of thinking about things, and you can use everything from that argument in the future to solve things or to address issues. But this idea that I have this with with a certain person in my family that I will not mention who it is, That for them is if there's not a right answer, there's no reason to talk about it. You know, you can get the answer or you can't. I said, no. That's why would you even think that? What in what situation? And then I started out with it.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:35:13]:
Something that was an ill defined problem with no true answer. Which, yeah, important. By the way, quick plug in for my friend Linda Nielsen. She is currently working on the next edition of specs grading for a book, for the next edition of her book. It's a good book.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:35:26]:
Oh, good to know. Alright. We are next. The next category for you to share with us is synthesis and creative thinking.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:35:34]:
You know, there's a difference between critical thinking and creative thinking. And so for creative thinking, we're thinking about how how we can use things, divergent and convergent thinking in terms of different ways of pulling things together and different ways of looking at things, and the synthesis point. So it's all about pulling things together.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:35:51]:
Alright. So I'm gonna spin the wheel. I'm hoping it's concept map. So that's why I'm I'm rooting for it, but we'll see.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:35:57]:
Crossing our fingers. Oh, it's the green one. It's the green one. It's coming around. It's coming around. It's coming around. It's so close. Thank you.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:36:03]:
It's so close. It's, like, almost right on the line, so we can probably talk. I'll tell you what. It's so close to the line. Why don't I do the student generation question, and then you do a quick concept map? Seems fair? It sounds good. Alright. Cool. Well, student generated questions, I've used these since the beginning of teaching, was to help students think about the material and pull it together.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:36:23]:
You have them come up with questions. And, yes, a lot of us have done this and they're not questions you can really use. Some people will say put them on the test and stuff. But the process of coming up with a good question is, really important in terms of synthesizing, pulling materials together, and thinking about the material in a new way. So have your students generate questions. They can pair up and and critique each other's questions. And you could pick a couple at random and put them on the test, and that would be their bonus because if it's on the test, they theoretically would get it right.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:36:53]:
So My colleague, Bjorn Johnson, teaches an action sports marketing class every year, and the students Wow. And the student generated questions for that are for the guest speakers that come in. And it's a pretty big deal. He rotates it out and the roles, and it's a big deal that they have to play different roles during different guest speaker sessions, and that works well. In terms of concept maps, that same class, I realized we were gonna talk about intro to psych, but you can tell I'm so excited from having getting getting some of the student learning up close and personal. But concept map, I like to have the same students in the personal leadership and productivity class. They they can kind of come up with they can take inspiration from a framework that we already looked at, but then they weave an analogy through it. So I mentioned the getting done workflow diagram.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:37:43]:
And so a lot of people in the Internet, if you were to search for that, have created a similar looking, but then I have them layer on top of that an analogy that to them helps it make more sense. And that's another way that I'm able to, yes, look at a concept map. If they've never made one before, it might be hard. So then they can look at concept maps that exist on the Internet and essentially replicate them, but they need that analogy. And they're the the things they come up with are, first of all, a hoot, and second of all, really demonstrate to me what they really understood. And if their analogy doesn't land, then, occasionally, I might say, hey. Let's think about a different one that might actually be closer to explaining this. So it's it it helps distinct

Todd Zakrajsek [00:38:23]:
liked it. Between that. Yeah. Love the analogy part. I haven't heard that one before. That's really good. I like that.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:38:28]:
Alright. So I have looked at the clock, Todd. And now speaking of

Todd Zakrajsek [00:38:33]:
do a speed round.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:38:33]:
I know we need a speed round. What do you wanna do? We can maybe do 1 or 2 more categories.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:38:37]:
No. I'm telling you. We're gonna try attitudes and values to see what happens if we just stick real focused and do speed rounds. And I'll see going

Bonni Stachowiak [00:38:44]:
for it?

Todd Zakrajsek [00:38:45]:
We'll see if in, like, a couple let's just try and see. If it doesn't if it doesn't happen in the first couple categories, then we'll just let it go. But let's just see what happens. Okay. We're ready. Okay. Here we go.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:38:55]:
Yeah. Attitudes values. You're gonna tell us what they are.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:38:57]:
Sorry. Yeah. Well, they're attitudes and values. Spin the wheel.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:39:01]:
Spin the wheel.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:39:02]:
What are your students see, I can save time here. It's spinning right now.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:39:06]:
Yeah.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:39:06]:
What are your what did what are your students' values and what are their attitudes and have them do this? Alright. Profiles of admit yay. It landed on profiles of admirable individuals. And on this particular one, I mean, all this really boils down to is you find an admirable person, somebody you respect, and then you profile them. And then in doing so, you're looking at the attitudes and values and comparing their values to your values. So it's a way for students to do this, and and we can see if they understand the concepts here.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:39:35]:
And in my business ethics class in the spring of 2025, I'm gonna be trying this, and I'm actually going to mix it with artificial intelligence. So I'm actually gonna have them interview. And even if the person isn't alive that they admire in terms of their business ethics, I might even have them try to bring in something from history if the person's not alive, but then I'm gonna use artificial intelligence to get a summary, do a light qualitative analysis, if you will, what all of the students' admirable qualities had in common, and then we can discuss that.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:40:10]:
That would be perfect. And spin the wheel here because what I'll say is that, well, I'd say spin it. Is it yes. That allows them after they do that, especially with the AIs, to talk about their values relative to it. I love that. Next category is just spin the wheel as self assessment of learners. Oh, to what extent do you know if you know? It's kind of a metacognitive approach to this one, self assessment. Yeah.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:40:31]:
And this came down to goal ranking and matching. I love the woo in there. That was a good one. This is a really simple cat. And, basically

Bonni Stachowiak [00:40:42]:
a different cheer every time. Have you known?

Todd Zakrajsek [00:40:46]:
I didn't notice that.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:40:47]:
Different. Now I'm gonna be obsessing about it. Okay.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:40:48]:
We'll listen to the next one.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:40:50]:
Yeah.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:40:50]:
This one's pretty straightforward. Is, basically, you have the students list down what their goals are to what they'd like to get out of the class. And one adaptation, which is kinda neat, is you as the teacher list what your goals are, and then you have students look and see to what extent they match. Because if they don't match, that's an interesting discussion point. And so in a psych class, I could even, in a chapter, say, for this chapter, these are my goals. For yours for you in reading this chapter, what would your goals to learn be? And then we could look at those 2 sets and see to what extent they match. And if they don't, we gotta talk about it. So there you go.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:41:22]:
And I have to use Poll Everywhere for this because Poll Everywhere has a ranking type of question, and then you can show the students what the class as a whole has done, and it's very quick and easy to use that. Alright. Our next category is learning and study

Todd Zakrajsek [00:41:39]:
skills. Excellent. Three more categories. Here's what we can do. I will explain learning and study skills is how you learn. But let me do the example on this one, and then we spin it, and then you do the next category. And that way, we'll move through it even faster. Woo hoo.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:41:54]:
A learner autobiography. And this one basically is just explaining how you process things, how you learn things so that we get a better understanding of our own to extent which we know how we're learning. And I can I do this with intro psych all the time when I tell students, figure out how much time it takes you to read a book, how do you go about learning, and they have to kind of lay out their own thing? That's their their learner autobiography.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:42:20]:
Alright, Todd. Next category, perceptions of learning activities and assessment.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:42:25]:
Oh, this is a good one too. Students are exposed to all these different assessments. Sometimes we should ask them and find out to what extent do they understand what's going on and to what extent do they, again, can understand what the assessment is? This one's yours. I did the last one.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:42:44]:
So focused on is the is the cheering the same every single time? And I believe that

Todd Zakrajsek [00:42:49]:
I know.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:42:49]:
I believe that guy at the end. That I think that's the same every time. So that's what was impacting me. But I have a job here to do. Right? And so I need I need to explain. Oh, reading and video ratings was the one that popped up. And Yeah. It got me I know that I'm gonna break a rule here because it's not quite what is being described here, but my colleague kind of does a combination of the fill in one that you were talking about earlier where you fill out the outline and having students rate things.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:43:22]:
And I think you could kinda get really creative with what your rating scales are. I think that could be really fun. I have a, like, I'm going on a 1000000 tangents today. But I have a a weather app that's a little bit snarky, and you can actually set the temperature of snarkiness and all of that. And so I feel like it would be fun maybe to have students come up with a rating scale to really bring some distinct qualities to your your reading of the videos and and reading assignments. That'd be fun. Alright.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:43:52]:
Oh, that's good. Well, I do like this cat. The only thing I'm gonna say about is I like this cat because so many times we'll show a film, we'll show something, and then we just say, okay. Let's talk about it. And the CAD basically comes down to asking the students, do you think that was helpful? And see what they think. So that's all that is. Last category is perceptions of teaching and courses. Oh.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:44:11]:
So we've been doing the section on perceptions. And this one, again, is just the perceptions of how is the teaching going, how is the course going. And so it landed right on oh, well, listen to the woo guy.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:44:24]:
Right at the end. Right on cue.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:44:26]:
Right at

Bonni Stachowiak [00:44:26]:
the end.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:44:27]:
Teacher designed feedback form. You know, we have our official feedback forms that we can use at the end of the semester. This is kinda like a mid semester kinda concept, and and it's helpful to get information from the students before the semester ends. And I'll tell you, one of my favorites asks 4 questions. To what extent am I helping you to learn in this class? What could I do to further facilitate your learning? What are you doing to facilitate your own learning? And what could you do to further facilitate your own learning? And essentially, with that feedback, which is gonna be on our teaching, plus they're learning a little bit there too, is that, they get a chance to kind of give you some feedback, but also process what's going on.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:45:04]:
I love those questions. Thank you so much, and thank you for this book. What a wonderful, wonderful tool it is for us to and to be able to think about all these different ways. So thank you for the book. I am so excited about these recommendations because, Todd, I think you're gonna find them a hoot. And I wanna Okay. See my source on both of them. Our senior director of our library, Jim Darlach, is such a dear friend and also is one of the biggest geeks that I know.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:45:29]:
It's just a special special best as best as best as kind of geekiness. So both of his are spectacular, and I can almost assure you you're going to love them. So what we're gonna find but there's gonna be some words I have no idea to how to pronounce because I think they're made up. So I'm gonna invite Todd if he wants to to help me pronounce the words. But so the first recommendation that I have reminds me of just taxonomies and categories and classifying things. And so I'm gonna read from their website here. Welcome to the holotypic ocupennid research group, and I'm still reading here. This site contains several years of research in the classification of occupants.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:46:16]:
These small objects are everywhere dotting supermarket aisles and sidewalks with an impressive array of form and color. The holly tip hollow Holotypic. Holotypic. Haloponid Research Group, and that's abbreviated h o r g, Horg. Yeah.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:46:39]:
I think you should just call it Horg from now on.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:46:41]:
Yep. Has taken on the mantle of classifying this most common yet most puzzling member of the phylum, plasticae. So let me break the character here and stop reading. This entire website, Todd, is dedicated to classifying the things that close your bread your loaves of bread. The Oh, that's what those are. The little plastic clips. So they have all the different they have a whole taxonomy. Oh my goodness.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:47:12]:
A made up fiction about how these things grow and develop. They I mean, it it is it is like the geekiest stem website you've ever seen, but just of the little plastic doohickeys that close the list of bread that I don't feel are necessary, and I often, early in my marriage, used to just discard. And my husband gets real nervous if that loaf of bread is not, you know, properly contained with these, now that I know what they're called, these these these call it. And then

Todd Zakrajsek [00:47:43]:
Or horgs.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:47:44]:
Yeah. Yes. Yes. So

Todd Zakrajsek [00:47:46]:
Well, that's interesting. Okay. Well

Bonni Stachowiak [00:47:48]:
Trust me, friends.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:47:49]:
There you go.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:47:49]:
You're gonna wanna go visit this website. So much fun. So much fun. Yeah. I I could only imagine how much fun you're gonna have doing this. My second recommendation, then I'll pass it over to Todd.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:47:59]:
Well, before you do your second recommendation, once you get done with the website with your friends around, just discuss at length what the difference is between a gert geek and a nerd. It's actually a better discussion than you would think. Okay.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:48:10]:
You can move on now. I it's funny that you say that because I was kind of he he's actually both, so that's the beauty of it. I could have used either description Yeah. Of our friend and colleague. So, Todd, this one you're also going to love. This website is whiteboard tips and tricks, and I'm reading here from Yuri Malishchenko. Over the past years, I've been using whiteboards very intensely in so many ways. This type of media has proven to be useful for a variety of tasks, and, they go on to talk about the tasks.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:48:42]:
But little tips and tricks for things like how do you draw nice dotted lines? How do you avoid messy spots while you're erasing unwanted elements? That's pretty cool. How do you color shade your drawings?

Todd Zakrajsek [00:48:56]:
Do you color shaded their drawings.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:49:00]:
And level grids. And one more. How do you make sure that texts are readable from any point of a room? And if you like this post, I will tell you that Jim has has shared with us. This is just one in a series of posts about graphic facilitation. So all kinds of I'm only recommending this one because I gotta save the other ones up in case I wanna recommend them in the future. But goodness I think

Todd Zakrajsek [00:49:27]:
those are outstanding. So my recommendations

Bonni Stachowiak [00:49:31]:
I'm ready.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:49:31]:
My recommendation. Okay. The first one's a little nontraditional, but I'm gonna go with it. I recommend the classroom assessments book because not only does it have the 50 CATs that we talked about, it also does have and this is a series. You can look those up online too, which is good. This has several chapters at the beginning that actually talk about CATs and how they work and why they work. And and within each CAT, it's not only how to do it, but it's what to do with the data and then how you can help the students to use the data. So there.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:50:01]:
How do you I don't know if any guest has ever done that before, but I'm gonna circle around and recommend what we talked about. And then the second one is that I actually am one of the small population folks out there. There are very few of us who do not require much sleep. And so I tend to sleep somewhere between 4 5 hours a night. I have for years. And it seems to be about what I require, but I have to be careful with my sleep because it is such a short period of time. It has to be high quality sleep because you're still your body needs these regenerative, things. So I use the Pillow app.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:50:31]:
The pillow app works really, really well. It tracks different stages of sleep. And it's not I mean, these apps typically are not absolutely precise, but they're pretty good. What I like about this one though is you can set up an alarm in the morning and it will track your sleep. And if you're in a deep sleep, it won't wake you up. It'll wait until you're at a higher level or a more awake state. So stage 1, basically. And so base it works out.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:50:53]:
You wake up every time I wake up from the app, and I don't feel exhausted because it's not trying to wake me up when I'm in stage 4 of sleep. If you don't know what stage 4 is, stage 1, new science of learning chapter on sleep.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:51:04]:
Mhmm.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:51:04]:
That's my recommendation. I've only got one there. That's all I got for you. I mean, 1 plus the book. Yay. Alright. We did it.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:51:10]:
Thank you so much for coming back on Teaching in Higher Ed, Todd. And and I know we already have some ideas for future topics, so I can't wait until we get to talk again.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:51:19]:
I enjoy it every time, and you are, again, fantastic. Thank you.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:51:23]:
Thank you for letting me experiment with a new format.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:51:25]:
That was risky and it I'm just gonna not lie to you. I was scared, a little bit scared at the beginning.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:51:30]:
Yeah. I was scared too, but I I knew we were we were good good together. We could take the risk together.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:51:36]:
You new teachers out there, sometimes you're scared, you move forward.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:51:40]:
Yeah. So true. Thank you again, Todd.

Todd Zakrajsek [00:51:42]:
You're welcome. Thank you.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:51:46]:
Thanks once again to Todd Zakrajsek for joining me for this episode of Teaching in Higher Ed. Today's episode was produced by me, Bonni Stachowiak. It was edited by the ever talented Andrew Kroeger. Podcast production support was provided by the amazing Sierra Priest. Thanks for listening, and I encourage you, if you've not done this already, head over to teachinginhighered.com/subscribe. That's gonna sign you up for the weekly update from Teaching in Higher Ed. You'll get the most recent episodes show notes as well as some other goodies that don't show up in the regular show notes. Thank you so much for listening and being a part of Teaching in Higher Ed.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:52:31]:
I'll see you next time.