Bonni Stachowiak [00:00:00]:
Today on episode number 549 of the Teaching in Higher Ed podcast, Designing for Justice with Rajiv Jhangiani.

Production Credit:
Produced by Innovate Learning, Maximizing Human Potential.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:00:20]:
Welcome to this episode of Teaching in Higher Ed. I'm Bonni Stachowiak, and this is the space where we explore the art and science of being more effective at facilitating learning. We also share ways to improve our productivity approaches, so we can have more peace in our lives and be even more present for our students. I'm thrilled to be welcoming back to the show doctor Rajiv Jhangiani. He's the vice provost teaching and learning at Brock University, where he holds faculty appointments in the departments of educational studies and psychology and is affiliated with the Social Justice Research Institute and the Social Justice and Equity Studies master's program. The architect of Canada's first zero textbook cost degree programs, His scholarship is supported by the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council of Canada and focuses on an open educational practices, student centered pedagogies, and ethical approaches to educational technology. His publications include numerous peer reviewed journal articles and book chapters, 3 open textbooks in psychology, and 2 co edited volumes. OPEN, the philosophy and practices that are revolutionizing education and science, and OPEN at the margins, critical perspectives on open education.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:01:57]:
Rajiv Jhangiani, welcome back to Teaching in Higher Ed.

Rajiv Jhangiani [00:02:01]:
Thank you so much for having me back. Just thinking it's been more than 200 podcast episodes since since we've shared space, so thanks for having me.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:02:08]:
We were both discovering just how long it's been. So much have changed, but it is one of those parasocial dynamics where I have gotten to hear from you and continue to learn from you through your writing and through your speaking. And sometimes I feel like we're traveling together, and I get to see these glimpses of some of the places that you've been. Do you mind sharing a little bit about some of the places that you've traveled? Because I just wanna live vicariously through your adventures. So

Rajiv Jhangiani [00:02:37]:
Well, thank you. That's kind. But you're asking me at a really interesting time as well, and it's funny. I feel the same way listening to your podcast and imagining your smile, listening to sometimes friends have been in conversation with you as well. But we're having this conversation just a few days after I've got back from a wonderful restorative family vacation in Australia, across Australia for more than a couple of weeks. But we went from coast to coast, from Brisbane to down to Tasmania, up to Adelaide and Kangaroo Island and Perth and Melbourne. And the the the boys and my wife and I had a wonderful, wonderful time over there. So, yeah, it has been overdue, that sort of a vacation.

Rajiv Jhangiani [00:03:15]:
And so on the one hand, I feel like it's an it's a it's a reminder not to delay vacation because, gosh, if you wait until November to take your 1st vacation of the year, you're gonna be pretty fatigued. But, boy, it's a reminder of the importance of that time.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:03:27]:
I had Jason Lodge on the show about and he talked about artificial intelligence. He's from Australia, and it is one of those places that I've not ever traveled to and thought, like, this would be an amazing thing. And anytime travel comes up, my husband definitely loves to adventure and travel far more than I do. So as he's gonna be listening back to this, he's gonna be taking careful notes and be very excited that we're having a conversation about traveling. But Jason did not do his country any favors because he started telling me and I think this was off the air, I believe, but he starts telling me, oh, yes. Well, they you know, in Australia, we have the deadliest spider in the world, the deadliest snake in the world, the deadliest something else. And I remember either asking him on air or off saying, well, so, you know, on campus, you don't actually you know, you don't you don't have to worry about it, but just like, you know, if you went for a walk somewhere out, and he goes, oh, no. You actually have to pay attention to it because they are on campus.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:04:26]:
And so, yeah, you it they're called deadliest for the reason. First, so I thought like, oh, okay. Well, I would have to be just ready to, you know, be attacked at any moment by the deadliest creatures because apparently, there are many, many deadliest creatures there. But now that you're back, I can tell you this and, you know, because you're safe and

Rajiv Jhangiani [00:04:41]:
you're back. There's certainly are. But, I mean, you know, I would say it's an amazing country. It's incredibly diverse. So, yeah, I'm sure there are places where there's a much greater likely that you'll encounter something particularly scary. But, I'll give a quick pitch to visit a place called Bruny Island, which is a small island off the coast of Tasmania, which of course makes it an island off the coast of an island off the coast of an island. And it's gorgeous. But, you know, you can have kangaroos eating out of your hand, you can pet koalas, you can be on gorgeous beaches, incredible journeys and islands and wildlife and incredible weather as well, of course.

Rajiv Jhangiani [00:05:14]:
So cannot recommend it highly enough. It was my 3rd trip, and it won't be my last.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:05:18]:
Oh, it sounds incredible. It is such a joy to be talking to you today. And one of the words that comes up so much when I think about you and also the last conversation I got to have with you for the podcast is encapsulated in the word justice. Tell us about a time when you were able to witness justice in action.

Rajiv Jhangiani [00:05:40]:
Well, thank you, Fosterville, for that association. That's really wonderful to to hear. I mean, I think for me, it's one of those moments that helped shape and maybe crystallize my philosophy as an educator. I, for a variety of reasons, been attracted to the topic of violence and genocide pretty much all my life. And so as an undergraduate and then a graduate student, I worked in fact, my supervisor was a child survivor of the Holocaust, worked very closely with him, ended up developing a course myself, an undergraduate course on the psychological aspects of genocide. And the experience I remember very clearly was working with the students. And it's interesting to watch how initially, in the early stages of the course, as they're learning about the history of the world, how human beings can treat one another so horribly, there's this degree of horror and they react to the tragedy, the human misery. But over time, when in fact, as they react less and less and less, as they begin to get a bit more desensitized to it, they start to react with horror to their lack of horror, if that makes sense.

Rajiv Jhangiani [00:06:42]:
And they're really interested in what do we do channeling that energy and they want to translate into action. And I remember this wonderful moment where so I found this book and it was a collection of recipes from women at Ravensbruck, one of the camps. And these Jewish women whose identities were often connected very much with food and family and tradition, they had taken bits of charcoal and other things and written down their family recipes because they feel that whereas they may not survive, they wanted their family recipes to survive. Now those recipes did survive. And this book, which was called In Memories Kitchen, actually includes all of those recipes. And so my students decided we had a bake sale in which they made things like orange cake, beautiful, from the recipe on that book, and raised several $1,000 on campus because they also provided a copy of those recipes, the history of where that came from. And all of that fundraising led to donations to the United Nations refugee agency. And they sent something like 15 truckloads of food to refugees from a contemporary genocide in the Sudan.

Rajiv Jhangiani [00:07:49]:
And watching the students change and galvanize into action, it wasn't just theoretical. They were really developing a sense of critical consciousness. And that, for me, was a really special moment to witness their transformation, their leadership, and their translation of critical reflection into critical action. So I think for me, that's a really memorable moment in my journey as an educator, and that was a huge gift to work with with them.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:08:14]:
The parallel between there being such horrific acts of injustice then transposing into your memory of justice and action is a beautiful thing to consider. I think sometimes when we separate these things, these are these terrible things that happen. These are these good things that happened and don't make space for the fact that there's overlap and life is messier than the binaries that we sometimes reflect upon. I mean, that's such a really powerful example that you have there. Tell us about what comes to mind for you when you consider what you may have witnessed in your life around injustice.

Rajiv Jhangiani [00:08:55]:
Gosh. Well, plenty personally, of course. But certainly when I think about it a lot in higher education these days, there's loads of examples, structurally, individually, you know, whether it's the assumption of deceit, when students are asking for extensions, whether it's policies that are predicated on mistrust of students. And, of course, so much of my work is focused on open educational resources. So it's a sort of inertia, where questions of student food insecurity are simply discarded or yeah, either discarded or maybe minimized. So I think lack of attention to that when people participate in higher education in a way that continues to reinforce and replicate existing societal hierarchies. And that happens a lot. I mean, speaking as someone who is among the few students of color who are portrayed in university brochures, we know what that's like.

Rajiv Jhangiani [00:09:55]:
But you you also know how the system is often designed to support privilege. And so whether it's questions for me today of contingent faculty members who are not able to engage in professional development for teaching and learning because they're effectively volunteering their time if they're not on a contract at that period or whether it's 1st generation students, students who are parents, students of color, indigenous students who are excluded in various ways. It's a lot of injustice in the academy. And I think that's what motivates, of course, a a lot of my work as as an academic administrator these days.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:10:28]:
As I was preparing for today's conversation and going through your work and, of course, your work, you exude a person who doesn't do work alone. So so many of the collaborators that I get to catch these glimpses of you working with. One phrase just keeps coming up for me, and it's the idea of designing for justice. We've started to create maybe some glimpses of what justice might look like. How do we design for it? How how how do you think about where where do you begin to either orient or reorient oneself toward designing for justice?

Rajiv Jhangiani [00:11:06]:
That's a great question. I mean, I think there's so many answers to that, but I would say when you have experienced directly, when it's not a theoretical experience, when you've experienced marginalization in various ways, you can spot the difference. I mean, first, you almost think, oh, I'd love to be invited to that table to to participate in the decisions. And so there's that design justice of people who are most affected by a decision needing to be the ones who shape the decision. But sometimes you're invited to a table and you realize that table is actually not even respecting my dignity. So that's a better moment to, in fact, step away and build a new table. And that's good advice, in fact, that Maha Bali has provided several times as well. So when I think about designing for justice as an academic administrator, I can point to many of the things that happen behind the scenes.

Rajiv Jhangiani [00:11:48]:
Some of them are some of those are really obvious. But some of them are little leverage points in a system where a relatively minor change can actually unlock quite a lot in the rest of the system. So at Brock University, where I work right now, I had the great privilege of helping shape and take through approval our new academic plan. And it is so centered on things like combating ableism, on responding effectively to the educational calls to action of Canada's Truth and Reconciliation Commission, to also what we have recently done, which is the Scarborough Charter on Anti Black Racism and Black Inclusion in Higher Education. And so it's really very much focused on teaching and learning, but it takes positions and it looks to reshape things. So I'll give you a tangible example. One of the different actions that is in the plan is about developing a framework for ethical educational technology so that new tools that are procured are not going to reinforce systemic biases. And so in practice, that means, you know, we're not going to make the mistake of procuring remote exam proctoring tools that discriminate against students with darker skin tones.

Rajiv Jhangiani [00:12:57]:
We are not going to procure artificial intelligence detection tools or at least tools that purport detect whether students are using Gen AI because, of course, we know very well at this point that among other groups, it discriminates against second language learners. And so sometimes it's shaping strategy, sometimes it's shaping policy, sometimes it's enacting practice, building supports, but thinking about who's been excluded and working backwards. Because if you design for the margins, everybody's looked after. If you focus on the majority, well, then you are reinforcing privilege.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:13:31]:
I know that this justice work and designing for justice has extended into the lab that you lead. Would you tell us first about the lab? And then we'd love to hear about some of the work around designing for justice.

Rajiv Jhangiani [00:13:44]:
With joy. Yeah. I mean, we our lab is called the Inclusive Education Research Lab. And I welcome people to look at some of our work. I had the privilege of working with a number of fabulous graduate students, some faculty colleagues, and collaborators all over the place. So graduate students, undergraduate students. More broadly, our work really focuses on 3 major themes, on open educational practices, on inclusive teaching practices, and on ethical educational technology. And so you use that phrase, designing for justice, that in fact is the title of one of our projects that has now come almost come to the end.

Rajiv Jhangiani [00:14:20]:
We're ready to publish at this point, which is very exciting. But we've tried to translate principles of social justice in practical ways into the classroom. So Sarah Lambert, who's a terrific friend but a wonderful, wonderful scholar, actually from Australia as well, not far out of Melbourne, published this wonderful article in 2018 or so where she focused on the 3 sort of different dimensions or facets of social justice, particularly redistributive justice, recognitive justice, and representational justice. And that really looks at, on the one hand, you know, redistributive is about reallocating resources to those who by circumstance have less. Recognitive justice is more about, let's say, sociocultural diversity in the curriculum. And representational justice is more about power dynamics. And actually, for example, empowering students of color to shape the environment for students of color. And so we tried to operationalize this in a number of ways in a course syllabus for a hypothetical course and trying to really raise up, ratchet up the levels of justice to see if even if students were presented with a course syllabus, would they be able to perceive the differences? Would they experience a difference in their sense of belongingness, their perceptions of the instructor? Would they be more likely to register in this course? And in fact, it was really fascinating to see.

Rajiv Jhangiani [00:15:35]:
We did this you know, in psychological research terms, you know, within subjects design. So the student participants were exposed to all versions 1 by 1 by 1 with higher levels of justice each time. And a quick summary is that it absolutely made a difference. And so you can for example, if you do things like adopting open textbooks, if you create assignments that are focused on things like editing Wikipedia to increase representation of women in science, if you invite students to cocreate the learning journey, if you're really intentionally focusing on, yes, open educational practices, but social justice explicitly, students can tell. And it's not just students with marginalized backgrounds who can tell. It makes a difference across the board, perceptions of the instructor, intent to register in the course, and and more importantly, a sense of belongingness. So for me, it's a wonderful illustration of, you know, sort of a thin slice approach. The ultimate intervention, of course, is a caring, compassionate instructor.

Rajiv Jhangiani [00:16:31]:
There's nothing that's ever gonna touch that in terms of power. But even the brochure for a caring, compassionate instructor, turns out that makes a difference. And you can send those signals very early. So very pleased with with how that study translated into practice and, hopefully, the recommendations that will serve other, educators as well.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:16:50]:
Was there anything that came out either in this particular body of research or just in your other experiences that would be indicative of what happens when you attempt to disrupt privilege. I I will say in my own teaching, I'm glad that this hasn't happened that often, but I certainly have these visceral memories of I could perhaps say that they were clumsy attempts on my part to do what you're talking about and that the failing was all mine. Realistically speaking, I think the failure is a system that allows privilege to persist and will do everything that it can. And then and then combined with just sometimes students who aren't exposed to these sorts of ideas so that when you start to bring up these ideas about who might be left out or trying to apply a more social justice lens on a particular context within your discipline, there can sometimes be this visceral reaction of, well, why would you I I I guess I'll give one quick example so that we're talking out of the hypothetical. I use this who's in class survey, which is a research based, Tracy Addie and her and her team of researchers. It just it it's helped me so much. And, again, one quick example is they got me to realize, instead of just asking if my students are commuters, that's a very silly I I look back at past me and think, what a silly thing to ask because they could live 5 minutes away or drive 2 hours to get there, and that's an entirely different context for a student. So I've learned so much from the who's in class survey.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:18:30]:
But I I remember once that I'm going through reading the results, and it asked things about their identity, such as what is your gender identity? I don't remember the exact wording, but I remember one of the students who happened to be a white male student in my class saying, why? Just just the word, why? And, you know, and and I thought, okay, this is my chance to train your brain, assume the best, trust students. So I thought, so this person has asked why. So why not just reply a little quick? I did a little quick video and said, thank you for asking about why it is that I ask about this. This is actually a survey that's developed and is used all across the nation, and the intent of it is to do I was very concise, but the intent is to do this. And so the reason for this particular question is how helpful it will be for me to have a better understanding of who's in our class, and then I'm gonna share the data in an anonymized way. But that's we could see who is in our class and what kind of community we're building. So I just took it instead of how I interpreted it, which which, again, could have been wrong, but, I mean, I interpreted it as resistance. It perhaps wasn't, you know, but but I thought they would just assume the best and give that, but but I think that's a minor example.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:19:43]:
But I will tell you the the more major examples that stay with me after all these decades. I don't wanna go into them, but I will say I just I guess it's that fear of the resistance, but yet I do it anyway. But it can't I guess I I guess it can't be as clean as it sounds to be like, yay. You know, when you try to do these things, you're gonna have success a 100% of the time. And isn't it amazing? So could you talk a little bit about some of the resistance that might be experienced when one tries to design for justice and what you've learned about what to do then.

Rajiv Jhangiani [00:20:16]:
Yeah. It's interesting. I mean, you know, of course, I think about this at 2 different levels. 1 is an as an educator trying to do things. And even the question of of designing or redesigning is a curious one because, of course, there is design, and the incumbent design doesn't really do justice necessarily. So there's a reason why when Sara Goldrick-Raab championed the inclusion of basic needs supports in course syllabi, that was such a revolution in many ways for people. And to think, well, we already have these campus supports, but what kind of a difference does it make if we simply communicated directly to students and let them know that I actually care about how they're doing outside of the class? And if you need these supports, you can reach out in these various ways. So I think part of it is to what degree are you going to get that pushback from the system, from your colleagues sometimes, if the department as a whole has made certain decisions that, again, even with the best of intentions, reinforce privilege.

Rajiv Jhangiani [00:21:11]:
Like, let's say, well, folks, we're all going to assign this expensive commercial textbook with this access code, which will automate quizzing for the class. It's going to be great for students. Well, wait a minute. Are all of our students able to afford that? Have we thought through some of the not just the financial, but the pedagogical and ethical implications of the data footprint that we're asking students to leave? So I think thinking about that kind of resistance. But even if we're talking about changes not within the classroom or syllabus but within a university. Think about some of the pushback you received from other educators who maybe don't quite appreciate what you're trying to do. And I don't mean it in terms of they're not a fan of it, they just don't quite understand it. I think, for me, it's been immensely helpful to engage in those conversations, to understand what is the issue, what is the challenge, what is the reason why they're pushing back, right? Because they're also nested within systems.

Rajiv Jhangiani [00:22:05]:
And no one has to be mindful of the pressures that they are experiencing at the same time. So if I have somebody who's clamoring for the use of AI detection tools in the classroom, I want to better understand the context that's leading in them in that direction, the specific challenges that are producing that motivation. Yeah. But I think this is one of the reasons why I think one of the nicer things we've done over the last year at Brock is we have this wonderful group of faculty and staff, all who have different areas of dimensions of expertise when it comes to trauma informed practices. And so what they're really helping us with is systematically reviewing some things like university policies and practices or procedures, departments that are interested in benefiting from their input, to just consider things differently and reshape things. And so I think, honestly, that expertise has been an important step along the way. But I think you also appreciate that, look, even if somebody doesn't quite get what you're trying to do or is demanding a different practice, there are shared values over here. And even the professor who assigns an expensive textbook is really interested in their students having effective and engaging learning materials.

Rajiv Jhangiani [00:23:11]:
And so there are definitely shared values over there. And so there's a conversation to be had. But I think you can't really reshape systems. You can't impose change on people if you don't understand the context they're operating with it and if you don't do it in partnership with them, right? So otherwise, you're trying to advance justice on the one hand, but you're actually creating more precarious conditions for others on the other. So systems systems thinking perspective helps over here. Yes, better conditions for students, but better conditions for educators at the same time.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:23:41]:
That example that you gave, I think could be a very helpful one to people at the the clamoring for AI detection use. And it is one where I have been it has been absolutely easy for me to come to those shared values because some real true my some of my closest friends that I work with are clamoring for that. And so when someone that you're that close to, that you know that you share so many values with is looking for something, I just find it easy it's so much easier to just go tell me more. You know? Let's talk about this. So could you and I go through a little bit of an example where if I were a person saying that, you know and you know me and you know my values, and I'm saying Mhmm. I I, you know, I teach writing intensive classes. I'm concerned about students, and I'm I I can't leave them where they are, where it's just that they're not gonna get the education that they're paying for. Could you talk a little bit about how you might approach that conversation with me if if you if you already give that assumption where you you know that we share those values and that there's just a disconnect with how much I know about AI detection tools and some of their flaws?

Rajiv Jhangiani [00:24:53]:
Well, I think part of it is not assuming that there is that knowledge. So there's the the sharing and learning everywhere. Right? So I think when we're trying to when we're trying to approach something like, let's say well, let's call it academic integrity, which, of course, is the big buzzword. I like to begin by unpacking that, first of all, because often we use the term academic integrity. But what we really mean to be talking about is student academic misconduct. But academic integrity, if you just look at those two words, that's much bigger than students. That includes things, for example, like making sure our assessment strategies are a good fit for the particular course delivery mode. Because if we are trying to squeeze in a high stakes closed book assessment into an online exam, I'm not sure it's the students who are all at fault over here.

Rajiv Jhangiani [00:25:39]:
We need to think about the design as educators. And that's part of what I would argue is academic integrity. But there's a degree to which I think you have to make a decision over here. And this is not just with the eye detection tools. You know, if a student comes to you asking for an extension because they've experienced a loss in their immediate family, for example, yes, you could make a choice to demand a copy of the obituary. I mean, that's a choice. But, you know, you could decide at the same time that while there's certainly a chance that somebody is going to deceive you and receive an extension under false pretenses, would you rather have that outcome? Or would you rather choose the outcome of, in fact, forcing a student who's going through trauma to deepen that trauma? And so even if you want to think about it as a type 1, type 2 error, I think there's a decision. There's a set of values.

Rajiv Jhangiani [00:26:30]:
And I think students can pick up on that. But you have to be comfortable with the kind of educator you are, be clear about the values that you want to uphold in the classroom, and then be comfortable with that. So yes, I think it's possible that a student will be using Gen AI in a way that is not permitted in the classroom. I'm perfectly comfortable with not using AI detection tools on top of that. And I think it's reasonable for somebody to land in a different position. But I think I'd want to help them walk through that thought process, that clarifying process about values. And I'm not suggesting that everybody needs to share my values. But I think being quite clear about it and then making that decision, not making it because they're dealing with some other challenge or pressure in their world, right? Maybe it's a question of not really redesigning a particular assignment because they don't have suitable levels of support in the classroom with, let's say, teaching assistants.

Rajiv Jhangiani [00:27:26]:
Or they haven't explored the option of co creation with students or certain kinds of authentic assignments or pure assessments for that matter. So if it's a reaction to workload, that's a conversation that has many different pathways and solutions. Gen AI detection is not the only answer to a workload issue when it comes to assessment. And so I think it's the opening of the conversation. It's understanding where they want to go, what are the values they want to uphold in the classroom, and then just having a relationship with them so that you can really explore options with them. But at the same time, learn from them. Right? Because not gonna assume that their context is is less complete than your understanding.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:28:03]:
Before we get to the recommendation segment, and I know that we each have some things we wanna share, I am so curious as I was refreshing my knowledge of you and your work. I I would love to hear you talk a little bit first first, I think you'll need to define a term because not all listeners will know what z degrees are. Oh, yeah. Would you share what they are? And you were so pivotal to that in in your country. Could you talk a little bit any any lessons learned? I realize I'm asking you a question that you could talk about for days and just be getting started, but as we close down this part of the conversation, just a couple nuggets of lessons that you learned through that experience that that you'd like to share with us.

Rajiv Jhangiani [00:28:43]:
Oh, happily. And thanks for the opportunity. And so, yeah, z degrees, as you would call it in the US, or or or zed, ZTC programs, as we would call them in Canada, effectively 0 textbook cost programs or programs that have zero cost for course materials, usually because they center on the use of open educational resources. And what these are really about is moving away from the sort of wonderful happenstance of, you know, you happen to have an instructor who's chosen to use OER and so you stumble upon a course, happy accident, you don't have to spend money. No, this is intentional. This is systematic. This is programmatic. So a student can complete an entire credential, a bachelor's degree, without spending a cent on textbook costs.

Rajiv Jhangiani [00:29:22]:
And it's certainly been a huge change from 10 years ago where it was a marginal practice to now where it's all over the place. There have been many, many, many people who've worked hard to advance this in the US. The Achieving the Dream network would be a great example. Tons of places, the CUNY system, the SUNY system, everywhere, Colorado, California. But, yeah, it's made a huge difference. And at my former institution, Kwantlen Polytechnic University, we certainly built 8 degrees by the time I left. Incredible student savings, of course. But what was remarkable was by integrating it in things like the course timetable, students who needed those savings were able to detect at the point of registration which courses or which course sections would be free of textbook costs.

Rajiv Jhangiani [00:30:04]:
And it made a difference. Across the 5 years that I was there with those programs, students showed higher assistance or greater persistence and in fact, higher cost performance as well in these programs. So yes, it saves students money, but it actually had a positive impact on educational outcomes as well. And that's even before considering all of the wonderful benefits with adapting, localizing, contextualizing, co creating with students that come from open practices. But it's one of those things where it takes a few system shifts, takes a lot of structural support. You certainly don't want educators innovating off the side of their desk, laboring without recognition or compensation. So yes, you revised tenure and promotion language to include OER creation. Yes, you provide OER grants.

Rajiv Jhangiani [00:30:48]:
Yes, you provide structural supports. It needs to be opt in. It needs to respect the academic freedom of faculty. But from what I've seen and the momentum that continues to grow across the world, it is one of those simple choices that has an enduring impact, not just on individual students, but on the identity of an institution. Right? You you wanna talk about value led work? If you care about access, this is a very, very easy thing to do.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:31:13]:
Is it one of those things that is incredibly hard as you're getting going, but once you reach a point and there's enough buy in, enough commitment, seems like it becomes easier or is that just in my I'm not saying easy.

Rajiv Jhangiani [00:31:27]:
Mhmm.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:31:28]:
But once there's enough people that have their imagination sufficiently expanded, do you reach do you reach that groundswell where it where the work becomes more spread out and more more possible?

Rajiv Jhangiani [00:31:40]:
Oh, yeah. I think it's it's always easy as an individual educator because that choice is yours, and you could make that switch anytime. But if you're talking about a full program, it does take structural supports. Right? So you do need that, that expertise, the library, the Centre For Teaching and Learning. And in fact, we've just concluded and published a report for the whole province of Ontario that assesses the capacity of all of our colleges, universities and Indigenous institutes to support this kind of work with a set of practical recommendations. So I'll share that in as a resource for folks as well. But so I would say it can be easy as an individual. But if you're talking about it as an institutional initiative, it certainly takes effort, it takes expertise, it takes will.

Rajiv Jhangiani [00:32:21]:
But really, the most important thing is make sure dedicated people have dedicated time to do dedicated work. So there's a reason why Open Educational Librarians play such a critical role in this space today. And they're a big part of how we support this work. So it can be easy. And if the university embeds it in the academic plan like Brock has, if they provide it structural supports like many other institutions have, then it can be easy for educators. And I think that's the ultimate goal, is to create an institution where an educator who wants to adopt open practices, who wants to adopt anti racist practices, who wants to adopt inclusive teaching practices, trauma informed practices, if they are not swimming against the current, that's an institution that is actually walking the walk.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:33:05]:
This is the time in the show where each get to share our recommendations. And I typed these up before we had this conversation, and you mentioned how many things we're carrying over. Okay. This is weird and lovely. So the song that I wanna recommend is called kindness, and it's by David Wilcox. And every time that kindness comes on, the first person I think of is Dave, my husband, such a kind, kind person. And as you were sharing about the how vital kindness is in our work, the song just kept coming in my head, and I thought, well, isn't that interesting that that was what I wanted to recommend first? And the second thing I wanted to recommend is a very short article. I read the blog.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:33:50]:
It's ARC log, and this is blogging by and for academic and research librarians. And the author of this particular piece is Brianna Calamino, and the piece is called learning through play, the importance of library makerspaces. We don't have a library or any sort of makerspace where I work, and anytime I I get to learn about them, I do get curious, and I especially love how much it seems like they cultivate people's imagination. And in this particular piece, she talks about a a a lesson about mental health and then sort of a a a 3 d printed little reminder of the lessons from the mental health. And then, yes, that she also, as a librarian, was able to facilitate other people. Here's the steps and how you prepare the materials and how you create the design. And so just thanks to Brianna for sharing about this workshop and about the imaginative power in general of that librarians help us with, but specifically with makerspaces. And it makes me get even more curious about them and the little figure of the of the that she has on the blog.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:35:01]:
I have to now go scroll. Oh, yes. It's a little cactus. The little cactus is just so precious. She's she's got it on top of her monitor there, and I thought that was kinda cool. So those are my 2 seemingly random, although now I have discovered not at all random things I wanted to recommend. And, Rajiv, I get to pass it over to you for your recommendations.

Rajiv Jhangiani [00:35:19]:
I love those recommendations. And, yeah, I feel like we've been picking up on each other's vibes the whole conversation. But I'm gonna be indulgent and give you 5 recommendations. The first is from one of my dearest friends and collaborators and frankly, heroes of the world. And this is, of course, the great Robin de Rosa, who is at Plymouth State University. Robin gave an incredible, moving, meaningful talk at the Open Education Conference a couple of months ago in Rhode Island. And it's called Against Hope, believe it or not. But it's a talk that considers things like, you know, what is the meaning of open in a world where words like access and inclusion and diversity are routinely co opted for profit or when we work in contexts that minimize or even poison or exploit our work.

Rajiv Jhangiani [00:36:09]:
And that's a question of those broader systems. It's transformative. It's fantastic. I recommend people watch it. It's on her blog in video and in with the slides. The second one I really want to recommend for anybody looking to build supports for open education at your institution, well, I think you could join this fabulous group called the Open Education Network on their website. They, of course, in the spirit of openness, provide a range, rich range of resources for things like open pedagogy and working with OER and to build some of that expertise that I was referring to as so critical. So I'll tip my hat to the colleagues at the Open Education Network.

Rajiv Jhangiani [00:36:44]:
The third is a podcast, another podcast, dare I say. And this is from a treasured colleague at Brock. She's one of the fabulous, fabulous people in our amazing Center For Pedagogical Innovation, where they do such incredible work every day. My God, this is one of the biggest joys of working at an institution is working with the folks like in CPI. And this is the fabulous Anne Gagne. And Anne is, of course, known for her expertise in, among other things, accessibility. And she has a fabulous podcast called Accessigotchi, I think. But I'll share the link for that as well.

Rajiv Jhangiani [00:37:17]:
And then you talk about the librarian who wrote about play. And that's maybe another theme that we're picking up across one another. But again, a fabulous creative person in the world, Brian Mathis is well known for his beautiful illustrations. But he's incredibly generous and he makes it easy for other people to be creative as well. So one of the things I love playing with, whether it's for slides for a talk or just because I want to have some fun, is he's built this beautiful remixer machine, which allows you to really build on existing beautiful artwork, customize it in really fun ways, and of course, apply open licenses to it as well. So the Remixer Machine is a fabulous place. So a talk, some resources, a podcast, a playful tool online. And maybe then my last one is where I sort of started, which I was going to recommend, go to Australia.

Rajiv Jhangiani [00:38:06]:
Take maybe the overnight ferry from Melbourne to Tassie. And then on from there, go to Bruny Island. Go look at the seals. Go walk on a spit of land where you've got beach on two sides of a narrow road. Visit a beautiful chocolate shop and a whiskey distillery. It's a magical place. It's not that far from Antarctica, but it's a really wonderful place to reconnect with the world, with nature. And so while everything else is as it is, declining trust in democratic institutions, climate crises, continual persecution and violence, I think sometimes it helps to go to a space where you can remind yourself in the quiet of what your values are as an educator.

Rajiv Jhangiani [00:38:46]:
And Bruning Island is high on the list for me.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:38:49]:
I am so grateful for today's conversation, for your work, for the hope, for justice that you've brought to today's conversation, and for all these resources. Now I I somehow missed the Robin Thoreau so can't wait to go check that out as well as so many of these others. I was very happy because as you started to introduce Anne Gagne's podcast, not only do I listen to it regularly, but also know how to pronounce her name. So that was fun. There's like that one I remembered.

Rajiv Jhangiani [00:39:16]:
She's incredible. And, honestly, the whole team in CPI. Absolutely. I think this is one of the joys. And you know this when you work in teaching and learning is to get to work with and support the people who care passionately and support teaching and learning when it's, you know, when they are the the firefighters, when people's houses are on fire as they often are, that's a special special task. So my my great love to to educational developers everywhere.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:39:39]:
Yes. And it just reminds me so much too of how we're able to sharpen each other's thinking and and with kindness toward each other, make each other collectively better at what we do and and toward more toward justice in our work, a a kind of correction that I think is healthy and becomes more healthy through that kind of kindness. Yeah. Kindness toward each other and kindness toward the work that we do and how important it is. Yeah. Thank you so much.

Rajiv Jhangiani [00:40:05]:
I agree. And, of course, the generosity with which you continue to to share and and create spaces for these conversations where I continue to learn from you and your guests. So I'm really grateful for the invitation to to be back here with you.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:40:17]:
I'm so glad you're back. We just have to not have it be so long next time. But we'll have to plan it too where you've just gone on some wonderful trip again so we can re revisit that too. Thank you so much for today.

Rajiv Jhangiani [00:40:27]:
Thank you, Bonni.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:40:31]:
Thanks once again to Rajiv Jhangiani for joining me on today's episode. Today's episode was produced by me, Bonni Stachowiak. It was edited by the ever talented Andrew Kroeger. Podcast production support was provided by the amazing Sierra Priest. Thanks to each of you for listening to today's episode. And if you'd like to receive the most recent show notes, this one, in your inbox, it's gonna be good, as well as some other resources that don't show up on the regular show notes, head over to teachinginhighered.com/subscribe. Thanks once again for being a part of the Teaching in Higher Ed community, and I'll see you next time.