Bonni Stachowiak [00:00:00]:
Today on episode number 508 of the Teaching in Higher Ed podcast, how curiosity can transform lives and change the world with Scott Shigeoka. Production Credit: Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:00:23]:
Welcome to this episode of Teaching in Higher Ed. I'm Bonni Stachowiak, and this is the space where we explore the art and science of being more effective at facilitating learning. We also share ways to improve our productivity approaches, so we can have more peace in our lives and be even more present for our students. Joining me on today's episode is Scott Shigeoka. He's an internationally recognized curiosity expert, speaker, and the author of SEEK, how curiosity can transform your life and change the world. He's known for translating research into strategies that promote positive well-being and connected relationships around the globe, including at the UC Berkeley's Greater Good Science Center and through his groundbreaking courses at the University of Texas at Austin. Scott implements his curiosity practices in the public sector, Hollywood, media, education, institutions, businesses, and throughout today's conversation, as you'll hear. Scott, welcome to Teaching and Higher Ed.

Scott Shigeoka [00:01:43]:
Thank you. I'm so excited to be here. Really, I'm very excited to be here.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:01:46]:
And I'm so excited to have a conversation with you and about curiosity. I have been curious about curiosity for more than a decade now, and that I got to read an entire book solely about curiosity.

Scott Shigeoka [00:02:00]:
I hope you felt seen. I hope you were like, I feel seen. Like

Bonni Stachowiak [00:02:04]:
I felt seen, but I also felt like there were so many aspects about curiosity that I hadn't thought about. And in a way, a lot of times as educators, we talk about building a network of knowledge, and you just expanded those nodes in my brain to areas that I also care a lot about, but hadn't necessarily connected that with curiosity. So thank you so much. And I'd love to have us get to know each other a little bit better. We're gonna be exploring what you talk about in the book of considering shallow curiosity versus deep curiosity. So a shallow way I might start out today's conversation is to ask, what do you do for work? And, Scott, I wanted to share that I it's been many years, I think. I'm trying to do some math in head. I'm not gonna even try to do the math in my head.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:02:56]:
Decades. I was I started working for a company the day after I graduated from my undergraduate college experience, and I worked there for 11 years. And I was laid off, and I remember the the so viscerally, the feeling of having the part of my identity just get shredded that and to realize how much of my identity was wrapped around work. So you this shallow question that you say maybe we could rethink is, what do you do for work? And I just remember the humiliation that I would feel. I I wouldn't wanna be around any people at all, yet I was terrified of running out of money even though at the time Oh my god. I was making more money than I've ever made in my life. So, like, my the math wasn't adding up in my head. I just knew I was supposed to

Bonni Stachowiak [00:03:44]:
be terrified or so I thought Yeah.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:03:46]:
All these things.

Scott Shigeoka [00:03:46]:
Oh my gosh.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:03:48]:
So still to this Dave, and again, decades later, I don't like to ask anyone, what do you do for work? And I love your deeper question. And so I'm gonna ask you this. What makes you come alive?

Scott Shigeoka [00:04:01]:
Yeah. And for me, aliveness comes from my relationships, relationships to myself, relationships to people, relationships to nature, to the divine. Really, I sit in that relationship to all that is within and and outside of me, but it's truly actually interconnected with me Dave vice versa. That's come alive. So anytime I feel my connection to one of those relationships, I feel like, ping, like, I'm alive. I'm tapped in, you know, because I'm giving myself that rest and that reflection and increasing my self awareness about what I feel, about a situation. That's when I feel liveness. When I'm, you know, with someone, I love or someone I'm just meeting for the first time and having a conversation and Bonni their podcast or, you know, I'm I'm out playing and exploring the world.

Scott Shigeoka [00:04:51]:
My hands are actually touching dirt, and I'm gardening, and I'm connecting with the earth, or I'm out and experiencing awe and big nature. You know, I was just in the Tahoe area, and I was just like, walk hiking around and just like seeing snow capped mountains. And just that to me is also feeling aliveness. And then also the Dave, like, knowing that, for me at least, that there is a greater purpose, a greater meaning in this wild ride of life. You know? And that when I think about and I and I feel my body, that connection to what is greater and what connects us us all, that makes me feel alive as well. And I think that's why we are alive is to just have that conscious experience of God itself or divine itself, which is us, like, living through the world, at least up to my perspective. So those things make me alive. And I just, like, love these questions because you get to learn so much more than I'm an accountant or I'm a writer.

Scott Shigeoka [00:05:47]:
Like, what you know, whatever the the answer is to that. I mean, you can always follow-up, obviously. But again, to your point, sometimes when we ask a question and there's an assumption that, a, like, everyone works, everyone loves their work, everyone someone didn't just go through a hard moment with their work, like getting laid off or really struggling maybe with, like, a toxic work environment. Right? Like, bringing that question into the conversation can actually be harmful. Right? So and we obviously can express our own boundaries and say, like, hey. I don't wanna answer that question. But, you know, it's also helpful to think more thoughtfully and intentionally about the kinds of questions we're asking too. And I just love that you're starting off the conversation this way.

Scott Shigeoka [00:06:25]:
What makes you come alive? I I wanna I I wanna also hear a little bit from you about what makes you come alive, Bonni.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:06:31]:
Sure. Well, I am going to attempt not to commit cultural appropriation because I read this so many years ago, and it didn't have a source that was cited, and I wasn't ever able to find this. But I read somewhere once that there is a Chinese word for both teaching and learning together, that it's it's like, like, they fit together, that one of the sides of the character is the opposite of the other, and that's if that doesn't exist and I and I fell victim to a myth that that was not well researched, then I apologize to those of you who know Chinese well, but that's that's what that's what brings me the most alive. To to me, teaching is learning is teaching is learning is teaching is learning.

Scott Shigeoka [00:07:15]:
That the

Bonni Stachowiak [00:07:15]:
I mean, it's just as natural as breathing for me, and what makes me come alive is doing that with other people, where, I mean, kinda like this conversation feels, right now, very edifying, and and, I mean, truly, so much of it is curiosity. Curiosity feels to me the what weaves in between those things. Because I'm curious when I'm teaching about what is happening in other people's heads and in their hearts and in their hands, eventually, what would they actually someday be able to do? And by do, I try to think about the grander purpose of the do. As as you say, like, it's I teach in a business context mostly, but it is in a a faith, based institution, a religiously affiliated institution. And so a lot of times sometimes they'll think, oh, I you know, someday I'll make a lot of Bonni, and then I'll give it all away. And I kinda go like, well, I'm I'm really trying not to be condescending in my head right now, but that's often the research would seem to indicate that if we're not to be trusted with the small things that we have now and building a life around generosity and and helping others and that kind of thing, that that that is unlikely when to them that we might be trusted with those larger treasures that could come into our lives someday.

Scott Shigeoka [00:08:37]:
My question always goes too when someone says, like, I wanna make a lot of Bonni, is what is your story of money? Like, what what was the environment that you grew up in regarding money? What did that look like? How do you feel? Like, actually, what are your emotions about money now? Like, is it stressful? Does it create anxiety? Does it make you feel powerful? Is it joyful? Is it confusing? Like, what what is the experience of it? And then the story of money is also really interesting because I find that many times when folks don't come from an experience around money, like maybe they had food insecurity. They didn't know if they were gonna eat. Or, you know, I've heard stories where you'd go to McDonald's and, like, you would get a dollar burger and you would split it up 3 ways for you and your 2 siblings, just like there there's food insecurity. There's, like, unknown, like, moving around, maybe living in your car, being housing insecure, freezing homelessness. I've definitely felt that even even in in those extreme instances to instances where you get laid off and you're, like, stress stressing about money in your early twenties or something that but I definitely felt like I lived in, like, the most wild Craigslist based living situations because of lack of access to Bonni, and had to do some pretty wild things to try to get money. In my early career, what I think created these stories about money, like, especially a lack of money, a scarcity, will I ever have it, and a fear that that I'm not gonna have my needs taken care of. You know what I mean? And when we start to explore the story of of money versus where someone wants to go with that money, you know, like, but why they feel that way. Oh my gosh.

Scott Shigeoka [00:10:13]:
It opens up so much of a connection between you and that person. And it helps them also realize, like, maybe where that's coming from. And at the end of the day, I think a lot of us just wanna make sure, like, we and the people we love are cared for, you know, are Dave, and that we wanna be a pod make a positive change and a positive difference in the world in some way. And money is one way of doing that by appropriating it and distributing it well. But there's many other ways to do it that don't even require an exchange of a dollar. So that's also interesting to explore too. Yeah.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:10:45]:
That's a gift that you just gave me. I'm gonna try to ask that story because that is something that's come up so often for me in my teaching, and I think would be so much of a more effective way for me to ignite a little bit of curiosity in me. It reminds me a bit of a story on I I have taught for many years now a class called personal leadership and productivity. And and I've really also wrestled with the idea that most productivity books are researched by white straight men, and that that's not representative of the people that I teach predominantly. So wanting there to be some different voices in there and not wanting my own biases and assumptions and what works well for me in the given context to think that that's gonna work in the same way for the diverse learners that I get to walk alongside. So one one thing that would come up was I do think it's good if we think about our phones and why were why were the phones invented and how do phone companies keep making the money they do? And part of it is by getting us to be convinced that we can't live without them, and we need them to be notifying us of things regardless of truly how important they are. But I remember I'm careful not to be really legalistic about that. So it'd just be more like an invitation to reflect and consider on the power that your phone may or may not have.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:12:08]:
And so I remember so vividly a young man. I was saying, what would it look like if you were to just turn off all notifications and no text just for an hour? And he told a really powerful story about his grandma and how she had been scammed out of something because somebody had called her. It seemed like a telemarketer or something like that. Don't really remember all the details other than to say it was that moment where I thought, far be it for me to ever get super legalistic about you absolutely have to turn that phone off no matter what. And I remember at the time, I did feel a little bit judgmental because I'm like, oh, well, I, at the time, have 2 young children at home and or if they were in school, like, I can't even remember how old they were, but it's like, oh, well, someone might need to reach me, but, boy, could they not wait an hour? And it's kinda like and then hearing that story, first of all, I've never been super close with my grandparents when I was growing up. That so so the idea that so many of the students that I teach, their grandparents are closer than than some people's with their parents. I mean, these are Mhmm. It's an entirely different relationship that I could only hope to understand less than a percent of Dave to bubble up when I think about yeah.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:13:30]:
That's so helpful.

Scott Shigeoka [00:13:31]:
And and and and even and I just, like, love just to mirror I love the way that you took that in, and you're like, okay. I'm gonna bring this into my classroom. And this is a way of me sort of reapproaching, you know, my students that I work with when they ask me or they say these kinds of things. And then the other point is that you have a recognition that, you know, your students are living different kinds of lives and experiences. I, for instance like, I grew up in an inter household. Like, my entire life, I grew up with my grandparents. And so my grandma and my grandpa are like they're like they're like parents to me too. They, like, picked me up from school and stuff.

Scott Shigeoka [00:14:03]:
I literally Dave, like, lived in the house with them. So, you know, and it and that's like a experience that I think is less and less common now Dave. I I am that makes me a little sad, though, too, because I I definitely think for for me, that was a really beautiful experience to have 3 generations, sometimes 4, in the same house where we're all just, like, living and learning alongside of one another. And to know that other folks don't even know their grandparents too, you know, like, they had died before they were around or before they were, like, babies. And so we all have different life experiences, and we're all bringing that into any space Right? Whether it's like a workplace or a classroom. And sometimes we if we come in with these assumptions, like, oh, everyone's had a grandparent, or everyone's had the same experience as me, That's probably not gonna be the case, and you're gonna make feel people feel dismissed or unseen or unheard. And then the other thing I was thinking about when you were talking, and sharing is I remember teaching in COVID on Zoom, and some of my peers were like, you have to have your your video on when you're in this classroom, like, you have to have it on. And, you know, I started doing that.

Scott Shigeoka [00:15:10]:
But then I heard through my curiosity that, like, sometimes folks are coming from experiences or situations where they really can't turn on their video, and it's not because they're disengaged. It's just they're they're they do not have the luxury to do that because of the world that we're living in right now, and that it would actually help them with their engagement and their focus if they turned off, their video. And so then I stopped making that a unilateral rule, and I said, you know, my my hope is that you are engaging in this classroom. And I see see that through the participation, but that doesn't require me to have a rule where every single person in this classroom must have their Zoom video on. And so I take that in every experience that I do professionally. You know, like, if I'm leading a meeting with a huge team, I say, hey, you know, I I respect that everyone's coming from their own perspective, working from their homes. There's a lot of things going on that we can't see. And there's almost like a privilege of being able to turn on your video.

Scott Shigeoka [00:16:01]:
So if you can, I invite you to? But if not, no worries. You know, you are welcome here to participate in a way that works best for you. And I think that's really what it means to create inclusive classrooms or inclusive, you know, workplaces.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:16:13]:
I love that you use the word invitation because I think sometimes the where I see us run into so much trouble when we start, you where I see us run into so much trouble when we start having important dialogue about teaching approaches is when we when we think in binary ways.

Scott Shigeoka [00:16:29]:
Yeah.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:16:29]:
And Exactly. It isn't that I think the answer to everyone has to have their cameras Bonni, not being a great idea is it doesn't matter because there are things that we can do that will uniquely create, where I'll I'll have pretty regularly students say, oh, I I I would Dave turned my camera on. I would have liked to see more people, but other people didn't. So then I realized the social pressure is the everybody's watching to see what everybody else is doing and trying to mimic those things. So the invitation to say, I invite you Yep. To turn that camera on. However, I know not all of you are Bonni play it's just it creates this alternative to if you have your camera off, there's a judgment that's gonna be placed there. And I by the way, I can't entirely erase that from my head, but I know that it's sitting there.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:17:20]:
The biases are sitting there, and I I know how dangerous they can be. And and that's why I've loved, so much learning from your work that we can turn those biases out. And one of the things I wanna chat with you a little bit about is slowing down. I don't think I can learn enough about slowing down. I get myself into the most trouble when I try to speed up. And speaking of speeding up, I'm like, I wanna ask you every question about your book, and we're only, like, 2 highlights. It's so fun talking to you. But anyway, so you talk first about speed bumps, 2 deep curiosity.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:17:53]:
So things that you warn us about are fear, and you spoke about that a little bit earlier, what we're afraid of, whether real or imagined. You talk about trauma, and you and I have both sort of hinted at some traumas in our own lives. You talk about a speed bump of just thinking there's not enough time. Mhmm. And then last, sort of the distance because maybe we're not meeting other people who seem different to us. So one of the big pieces of guidance, not just for overcoming those speed bumps, but overall in honing our curiosity is to slow down. And you write, the goal is to build the habit of noticing your assumptions and pressure testing them for accuracy. Talk about a time when you have found that to be particularly helpful where you were able to do that, or maybe you didn't do that and you Dave to tell about it.

Scott Shigeoka [00:18:54]:
Well, first of all, oh my gosh. I love I just love you because you're so real and down to earth and just, like, genuine. And I think that's the really the fun foundation of being curious and also learning from our curiosity. And even just, like, in this moment, like, I've had the assumption that I needed to pressure yourself. Like, oh my gosh. Like, should I be talking more about the book or, like, getting to the questions? But you know what I I realized is, like, people are gonna be really attracted to you know, if you are feeling a sense of aliveness and connection and curiosity and joy and are feeling all these wonderful things with your host or with your guests if you are the host. Like, that really is felt by the people who are listening in. It's like a real conversation.

Scott Shigeoka [00:19:37]:
You know? Like, when you see people laughing and you're you're in the conversation, you're laughing too because the jokes are Bonni, and you're looking to it, and you're, like, vibing. And I think my sort of, like, spiritual inclination is really, like, whatever is supposed to unfold, if it feels genuine, and if it feels truly curious, is exactly what it's supposed to unfold, you know, but sometimes we operate in this culture, this dominant culture, that is like, we will plan the curriculum, we will submit that. That is exactly what we're gonna do. And then when we walk in the classroom, it only can be about that. Right? And it becomes so rigid and so binary to your to your earlier point, that doesn't consider, for instance, that there are things happening in the world that can impact the psychology of our students. Right? Maybe their country is under assault and is under siege. Like, maybe something interpersonally is is happening. You know, a family member that they love was just diagnosed with cancer.

Scott Shigeoka [00:20:35]:
Maybe one of them is going through a separation or heartbreak in some way. Right? Like, we carry that into every part of life, whether it's us grocery shopping or us trying to be in a classroom learning. Right? And so when we come in and we say, like, this is the rigid curriculum, or this is the rigid set of interview questions like we have to do, that is actually not meeting people with curiosity and saying, hey, I wanna recognize, like, when everything was going on around, you know, cause rightfully so historic cause for actually valuing truly society, valuing black folks in our country, their bodies, the injustice that was happening, naming that and saying like, there is a lot of energy that's happening in this room right now because we are on the the heels of what just happened to George Floyd, right, years ago. And and to say that in in the classroom and to say, like, whatever you're feeling right now, that is valid. You might be feeling like I cannot even focus right now. I need to go actually. I need to, like, take care of myself. Or I need to go because I need to be involved in the solidarity efforts that are going on.

Scott Shigeoka [00:21:40]:
You know, my goal as a teacher is to make sure that I'm creating this container for you to fully express yourself and to, like, grow into the person that you ought to be. Right? And and that you are destined to be. So if I'm saying, nope, you stay right here. You focus on this content. We are focusing on statistical, whatever, whatever. You know, like, that's the only thing we're gonna talk about today. That really does sort of ice people out from their own experiences and their own feelings. And it's not and sometimes it is appropriate to, you know, create a whole sort of, like, pivot and, like, move towards where the energy classroom is going.

Scott Shigeoka [00:22:14]:
But sometimes it's just like, yes, you wanna stay on path. And, like, the folks that are there might really need that sense of focus and to, like, escape for just a second and just, like, be in something different to help cope with this world that we're living in. So I don't know. That's what I always am thinking about too is how do I pressure test this assumption that I need to go about doing my day, doing this interview, doing my teaching in my classroom the exact prescribed way that I had planned to, and instead be a lot more open, curious, and really sense what's really going on with everyone in this room right now. Right? Like, I made up this curriculum without the energy, the, like, input from all of these folks that I'm now teaching. Like, what's actually going on in this room right now? And how do I start from that place? And know that I have this, like, curricula that can create a structure and can be a support for me to, like, navigate and move through this next hour with them. You know what I mean?

Bonni Stachowiak [00:23:09]:
Many years ago, during one of the, sadly, many times a unarmed black man was killed Yeah. I came into the classroom very charged and angry and at, you know, tears, etcetera. And fast forward to, I think it was 3 years beyond that, a man who had been in my class had told me or just is a informal conversation happening with a group of students who were enrolled in that class. It's like, oh, I I didn't really like you back then. I thought that you, like, you were over the top, I think, is the word that he used and not appreciating. And I don't even remember all it was, but but it was, like, not appreciating the ways in which police officers put themselves in harm's way for the betterment of society and all all this stuff. So it's something that's really kind of stuck with me is that I want to recognize that there will be lots of feelings. I kinda like the words that Exactly.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:24:06]:
Phrase that you used is whatever you're feeling. You are you are either attempting to reduce your biases. I'm like, there could be lots of ways in which we're feel feeling that way. One thing that's important to me, you talk about in the book, is seeing the dignity of every person because that's that's now how I start out, especially when I I teach a business ethics class most years, and we're gonna go into a lot of stuff that for many of these students is really taboo. We're not supposed to talk about those things. And and, again, it is a religiously affiliated for all of the good, bad, and ugly that comes with those kinds of context. So Mhmm. There is something in many faith traditions that's called imago Dei, the idea of all people, all people being created in the image of God.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:24:55]:
And so this seeing the dignity of every person, I try to start out with that of the value that can we all sign up for that as it like, in

Scott Shigeoka [00:25:04]:
Yeah.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:25:05]:
Is there any disagreement that that there is dignity and value in every person?

Scott Shigeoka [00:25:11]:
Yes. Yes.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:25:11]:
And then to be able to go back and root in that when I need to feels like a safer place than

Scott Shigeoka [00:25:17]:
Yep.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:25:18]:
If we can't agree on that. And I don't I don't know if you've ran in Yes.

Scott Shigeoka [00:25:21]:
I mean, obviously my gosh. Yes.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:25:23]:
Obviously, you have because it's it's come up as, and I wanna read your words here. Until we honor the inherent worth of others and work to see them as complex beings with autonomy, emotions, and experiences, we can't access deep curiosity.

Scott Shigeoka [00:25:41]:
Mhmm. Yeah. Exactly. And I think that's unfortunately what is happening right now in society and on higher education campuses. I think it's such a litmus for what's going on in society or like a signal. We are, you know, we are inviting everyone to feel what it is they're feeling. We want to honor the dignity of every person that is in a classroom, let's say. But we know that in a classroom, there might be very different experiences.

Scott Shigeoka [00:26:04]:
Right? Like, just like you were saying, like, some folks might have grew up in the police force, have a different perspective than someone who is black and it has a very different experience from them. And there can also be folks who are black and growing up in police force families. Right? Like, there there's, like, a mix. Right? There is no just like this or that. Just because you're from the police force doesn't mean that you're gonna think a certain way about this issue. Just because you're black doesn't mean you're gonna think a certain way about this issue. Like, we all have nuance. Right? And we are all like I said in the beginning of this conversation, just because we have the same identity, which is being woman, being a police officer, being black, being Christian, being Republican, whatever.

Scott Shigeoka [00:26:40]:
Like, you are not all the same just because you share that identity with someone else who also in that way. But I think we have to start from a place of, I'm gonna honor the dignity of every person. And that starts with me saying, I don't know you based on just the way you look or the occupations you hold or that your family holds. And I don't know what you're feeling. I don't know what you are, what you believe on this issue. And I'm gonna come from a place of deep curiosity and ask you those questions. And then when I hear something that maybe goes against my own point of view or my own perspective, especially the ones that I feel so fiercely strong about. Right? I think today, we tend to lash out and say, like, you're wrong.

Scott Shigeoka [00:27:26]:
You don't know what you're talking about. You don't see things from my way. You know, like, hear all the people that you are consequentially impacting by believing that way, whether it's any any issue. You could, like, literally pick any issue, and this is always happening. But what it does is it says, at the foundation that, like, what you say to me and what you're saying to me does not matter. I'm not willing to take it in. That's your your wrong. And in fact, you're more than wrong.

Scott Shigeoka [00:27:51]:
Like, you are a wrong person. If that is what you believe, I cannot believe you would vote for this person or vote against this issue. You know? And that othering, right, that dismissal of them being their own person who is, like, on their own learning journey of, like, ident like, figuring things out just like you are, you know, is really harmful, not only for that person, right, that person to feel like, wow. My my my perspective doesn't matter. This person is totally invalidating, like, my perspective. Like, that doesn't feel good,

Bonni Stachowiak [00:28:25]:
but it's also harmful for the relationship as well.

Scott Shigeoka [00:28:25]:
Right? Like, it it creates fractures, and it separates you from that person because you're you're pushing them away rather than calling them in and saying, tell me more about that. I think the big thing is people forget that curiosity isn't about consensus or agreement. I'm not asking questions to say, like, I agree with the same things that you do. You know, if that happens, great. And let's also explore that because, like, just because we agree doesn't mean we should stop exploring something because there's always something you need to learn, and we wanna make sure we're not just confirming our own biases. But a big part of curiosity is to encounter people and perspectives that are different from you because that is how we learn. Right? If I never, Latino, black, any other race. Like, I will never understand the fact that we live in a multiracial society.

Scott Shigeoka [00:29:13]:
Like, I will never understand all of the different ways that that means to to be a part of that culture, to embody this race, to, you know, move through the world in this way. And vice versa is true too. Like, if no one meets anyone who's Asian, they're all gonna think we all have tiger moms. Like, we all, you know, every parent Asian parent told us to be, like, a doctor or a lawyer. You know, we're all good at math. Like, whatever the stereotypes are that are based on not encountering people who are actually different from us and learning from them. But we can't just stop at race. We also have to go to age.

Scott Shigeoka [00:29:46]:
You know, we have to meet people who are younger and older than us outside of our family. That's why I'm so grateful I grew up in an intergenerational household to just, like, be around people who are different so that I don't subscribe to Okay Boomer. You know, it's like, no. I actually know a lot of people in the boomer generation who are doing so much for movements for social justice, racial justice, climate change, etcetera. In fact, we're some of the core leaders in their time for some of these movements. I'm not gonna I'm not gonna say, you know, that I'm not gonna ever work with you or talk to you because you are older than me. And and same for those younger. But we have to continue to expand.

Scott Shigeoka [00:30:21]:
It's not just Dave. It's also, you know, faith. It's also politics. It's also where we stand on certain issues like abortion and gun control. If we are not continuing to put ourselves in contact with people who are different from us, we won't be closing ourselves off from learning. We will be closing ourselves off from the relationship that we could be building with those people, which are sometimes folks that we've known for our whole life, like our uncles and our cousins and our parents, you know, who might see issues different from us. And we close ourselves off from our own development, from us learning and transforming our own views on the world. So I think that's what honoring the dignity of people leads to.

Scott Shigeoka [00:31:00]:
It's like you say, you are your own person. You can have your own perspectives. I'm not God. I'm not here to, like, make you feel like you do not matter or make you feel wrong or try to, like, manipulate you into thinking something differently. But I do hope that you get there. You know, like, I I hope we all get to a place of that's closer to justice, that's closer to belonging, that's closer to sustainability. You know, like, all the things that I value, and I hope other people value too. And I think that we can only get there by continuing to be curious, continuing to listen to each other, and continuing continuing to grow in our own beliefs and perspectives and in our hearts.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:31:39]:
I grew up with one parent who was on the well, actually, 2 parents on the polar opposite political sides. Polar opposites and still to this day, polar opposites, political sides. So what I recognize that I learned growing up, and I say learned in air quotes, but people can't see me because they were not necessarily the most helpful lessons when thinking about teaching in, environment where people do have such different, more identity based perspectives on things, what I learned was you just don't talk about it. Like, the safer the safer that you will be is the better off you'll be is just not talking about it. So I recognize that's rooted in me for safety when I am responding to that sense of fear. You had such a unique experience to look at what are called death doulas. I'd love you to Dave, share a little bit about that experience of of meeting 1 and then transforming what a a death doula might tell us about becoming a Yeah. Courage doula.

Scott Shigeoka [00:32:42]:
Yeah. And I think the reason why we're told that advice of, like, just don't talk about it. Right? If you, like, say you're in a romantic partnership where there's vastly different political ideologies or whatever the relationship dynamic is, it's because we haven't learned sometimes how to talk about our differences in a way that's really constructive and energy giving that doesn't feel like it's so much freaking work all the time. You know, that doesn't feel like it could potentially harm or push our partner or our friend or relative away. And so I think the answer to that is curiosity. It's about, you know, deepening curiosity is a muscle. It's not just a skill set. It's something that we can strengthen over time if we practice it over and over again, just like any muscle in our body.

Scott Shigeoka [00:33:26]:
And with the more that we build our curiosity muscles, the better we're gonna be able to get into conversations or get into contact or have shared experiences with people who are very different from us. And then death dealers, I think, are truly the best of us in some ways, you know, because they're they I've met many, actually. I I write about one in particular, Doula Alta Arthur, in my book, but I've had the opportunity to meet a lot of death doulas who are essentially like if you birth doulas are more known in culture. So just think about a doula that is at birth that is also at the end of life. They are there to help someone to die with dignity, with care, to go through that experience, that life experience. It's a major milestone, just like birth, in a way where they feel comforted, educated, supported, empowered, and then also to support their loved ones too that are if they are, you know, fortunate to be surrounded by loved ones as they are dying to support them in that process too. And one of the big insights is that really what a death dealer does is they they do 2 things. 1st, they accompany.

Scott Shigeoka [00:34:30]:
So they really just witness whatever is going on for that person who is dying. So So it could be negative emotions. It could be I am feeling so sad. I'm feeling frustrated. I'm feeling, oh, my gosh, like, I'm just gonna sleep and never wake up. Is that what's gonna happen? Or it could be positive things like, oh my gosh, I'm gonna, like, be at peace finally. I'm I'm ready. You know, whatever is coming up for folks to say whatever you are feeling, just like we've said, and all of these other scenarios, whatever you're feeling is right, and is is exactly is valid, and is exactly what you should be feeling in this moment.

Scott Shigeoka [00:35:03]:
What often happens with folks who are dying, especially with loved ones, and we don't wanna see our loved ones Dave, or or we don't wanna see them in pain. And so we focus away from accompanying and and recognizing the negative and positive emotions are going through, and instead, we try to manage them, and we try to treat them. And we try to say, oh, like, don't worry. Like, you're gonna get through this. Like, we have a couple more rounds of chemo. What you're gonna do is, like, have you taken your oxy? Like, have you done the you know, like, it's it's a lot of, like, managing versus just accompanying, right, and saying, yes. This sucks. So if that's what you feel like, this is like a really shitty experience, and I'm feeling so sad too.

Scott Shigeoka [00:35:37]:
Like, I'm I don't want you to go and and, you know, to really, like, rest in, like I said, that realness of what's going on with that person who is dying. So don't other don't dismiss, don't try to change, don't try to manipulate their experience or the perspective, which is exactly what we're saying about someone who has a different perspective and you have a different issue. It's the same with someone who is saying. And also the the second point, in addition to a company met, is curiosity, is to really ask them questions and to be explorative with them, to have them reflect on their lives, the relationships that they've had, the memories and experiences that were treasured, how they want to die with dignity. What do they want to communicate, if at all, anything to the loved ones that they're with? You know, we are afraid sometimes to ask these kinds of questions, Like, how do you wanna die? Do you wanna be cremated? Do you wanna be you know, those those questions that are really helpful for loved ones to know so that we can honor how you would like to Dave, but it's scary, and it's uncomfortable for us. Like, we don't wanna talk about that stuff. Dave. It's taboo, like you said.

Scott Shigeoka [00:36:39]:
Right? But oftentimes, like, when we come from a place of curiosity, and we make people feel seen, and that like, wow, like, I am whatever I'm showing up with in this moment of of dying, how I want to die, me reflecting on my life, that is actually a really liberating experience for them. I've been told by Dautilus, and it also reduces their anxiety because a lot of folks who are dying have end of life anxiety. It's very scary. It's a natural instinct to want to survive and not die. So a way to care and to bring compassion to someone who is dying, who has a lot of anxiety, is actually to bring curiosity towards them and to ask them these kinds of questions. Because it, you know, them being curious, actually unwinds and reduces a lot of anxiety and fear. It it you know, and it makes sense because curiosity opens us up. It makes us sense and wonder about possibilities.

Scott Shigeoka [00:37:32]:
It makes us feel excited. Right? Curiosity is like an it's akin to excitement, and it's akin to possibilities and openness. And so you're gonna come into death in a very different expression with curiosity than when you're incurious, or you're trying to push away, you know, any possible exploration or question. Right? So, yeah, so a company meant and curiosity are kind of like the 2 big things that death doulas use with their clients. And it really creates courage because that's at the end of the day, like what we have to do in any situation that is unknown. Right? Whether it is post layoff, going into a marriage, welcoming our first child, a separation or Dave, or our death, you know, that we have to come in to those experiences of the unknown with that courage. And that's what accompanying that and curiosity builds for us. It builds courage for us to march forward into the scary next unknown with a sense of openness, a sense of gratitude, a sense of feeling held and and and cared for.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:38:38]:
I guess I shouldn't be surprised that an interview with someone who wrote an entire book about curiosity is so hard to end this part of the conversation because there's so many more things that you have me curious about, and I was already so excited to talk to you today. I wanted to just share 2 things before we get to the recommendation segment. Mhmm. One is that you write that you've always lived by the motto, be driven by love. And just the way that you live your life, the way that you've modeled what it looks like to have curiosity is such a beautiful thing to have witnessed in your written word. And then also to get to speak to you today is just so it's hard to for me to find words to put it in, but, just so grateful for you and for your work. Mhmm. And then I wanted to just say gotcha.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:39:24]:
I mentioned at the start of our conversation the ways in which your book helped expand my imagination for the all the crevices that curiosity can seep their way into and heal and bond and and unite. And so I just wanna read a few of the things that you say that curiosity offers us, and then we'll go to the recommendation segment. So I guess we're just gonna have to leave people with more curiosity so they'll pick up the book. So you write that curiosity offers us important ways to challenge our assumptions and biases, provide an anecdote. I always get anecdote and antidote. Ancdote, there's, like, star I I have not Spider Man. I have Superman. Anidote.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:40:04]:
Antidote. Yeah. Antidote. Are they differ they are 2 different words, aren't they?

Scott Shigeoka [00:40:09]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean I mean, I think, you know, use another word makes sense for you. I I use that, but you can use you can use unwind, fear, and anxiety. You can use it reduces fear and anxiety. Whatever feels comfortable for you.

Scott Shigeoka [00:40:20]:
Yeah.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:40:21]:
Embrace uncertainty with more courage, deepen connections in an era of social isolation and exclusion, become more intentional and thoughtful, sharpen our creativity and collaboration skills, find common ground with others who have opposing views or differences, move through hard times in our life, and build self awareness and be kinder to ourselves. Thank you so much for the gifts that these things are.

Scott Shigeoka [00:40:50]:
Yeah. I I just wanted to, like, just as a also to put a bow on that as well, since we're on a higher education podcast, and I think a lot of your listeners are either teaching or administrators and and also, like, are, impacted in some way in in that industry. Like, I thought a lot about the work that I do on campuses, which is there's all of these geopolitical crisis going on, a lot of these conversations and tensions that are going on between in and outside of of the campus that affects the way that students feel towards one another, that faculty feel towards one another. You know, students can feel unsafe on their campuses because of the discourse or the lack of discourse because it's falling apart. And then also all of the ways in which, you know, even on college campuses, there is sexism, antisemitism, Islamophobia, you know, homophobia, you know, all the different forms of hate. So it's about how do we reduce hate? How do we reduce violence if there if that is unfortunately happening? And how do we help folks in this really diverse campus come together, honor the dignity of one another, see each other, and move forward together so that we can create the an institution of learning and of growth. Right? And then the other piece is is about not just culturally, but in classrooms. And just as an institution, how do we create a culture of curiosity? So that because that's an engine for learning and growth.

Scott Shigeoka [00:42:12]:
And so I'm often brought in to help figure that out with administrators or faculty members, or even students, which is really fun to create that culture, where people are willing to and are courageous, enough to ask deep questions to one another and to learn about different experiences and cultures and to, you know, exercise this muscle that is so important for their learning and their growth. So those are the offers that I have for folks who are listening. If you're like, oh my gosh. Like, yeah, we're struggling with, like, big moment of attention on campus or, you know, oh, yeah. We do wanna create, an institutional culture culture of of curiosity because that's a big value of ours, you know, on our on our campus. Please reach out. I'm always happy to support you all in that in that effort. So I just wanted to share that as an offer.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:42:56]:
I love that culture of curiosity. I want I want that every day, all day. Alright. This is the time in the show where we each get to share our recommendations, and the first one is that if you wanted to explore more about curiosity in addition to Scott's book. There is a author who you may know because she works with the Greater Good Organization. Amy Eva wrote 4 ways to inspire humble curiosity in your students. So that's a wonderful read that links out to a lot of other resources about curiosity as well. And I mentioned to

Scott Shigeoka [00:43:31]:
Hey, Amy. Yay. I'm sorry.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:43:33]:
I've never even said it to him.

Scott Shigeoka [00:43:34]:
I'm like, yeah, Amy.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:43:36]:
Totally allowed to do that. I mentioned to Scott just how curious I've been about curiosity for such a long time. Most of my explorations have been about what curiosity can do in terms of providing good fertilization for learning to occur. And so if anybody was interested in a little bit more of a context specifically within higher education and what curiosity can do for us, I'm gonna link to a video from a talk I gave a virtual talk I gave for the community colleges of Spokane called wonder, what's next, and that's just a way where you can come look at the slides that I created for that presentation and explore some of those other aspects of curiosity specifically in a learning context. And I've just loved I I always collect curiosity quotes and and love the all of the work that people are doing just to see those benefits and to provide that good foundation for how we can have more of it in a learning context. So, Scott, I'm gonna pass it over to you for whatever you want to recommend.

Scott Shigeoka [00:44:40]:
Yeah. So I am a fellow at the Greater Good Science Center at UC Berkeley, and there is a wonderful you could be administrator, a staff member, you could be a student, but you are interested in bridging differences on your campus in some way. It's an amazing cohort of folks that represent faith colleges, HBCUs, community colleges, 4 year universities. It's just a really diverse group, all ages, all kinds of positions. I've had the opportunity to facilitate and to do a bunch of, speaking for that cohort. They meet regularly. It's just and they work on different projects that are related to bridging differences on their campus. It's it's an awesome, awesome opportunity.

Scott Shigeoka [00:45:30]:
So you can check that out at the Greater Good Science Center, the, bridging differences in higher education community of practice. So I wanted to offer that. And then, yeah, from the, book side, just I this is a a recommendation that's coming to mind just off this conversation when you were sharing, we are more than just your jobs. You know, there's, you know, my friend, Simone Stolzoff wrote a wonderful book called The Good Enough Job. And it's all about different stories of how exactly that we sometimes orient our life around the religion of work and what that does to us, what that means, and how we can sort of see our job as just good enough and, like, work on the things that are also really important to us, that bring us meaning. So I would recommend that book. And then I would also recommend I'm gonna recommend a pop culture thing just because I think it's just the epitome of of curiosity. Well, 2 pop culture references.

Scott Shigeoka [00:46:26]:
Actually, 3 pop culture references, which is there are 3 female singers that I think epitomize the world, but I want us to live in. And that's Beyonce, Taylor Swift, and Dolly Parton. When you go I was just at Beyonce's Renaissance tour. I'm so fortunate that I was able to like go. It was such a phenomenal experience. Just like I know many were on the Eras tour, you know, or Dave seen Dolly in person. You know? It it is so diver. You go to this this Beyonce show, and there's, like, 50, 60000 people who are all ages, all walks of life, Dave different political view, you know, like and all of that, we are not fighting.

Scott Shigeoka [00:47:07]:
We are actually having a spiritual experience together and sharing this love for this performer and this music. And it was so, so beautiful. And it's I Dolly Parton's America is another example of this experience of music bringing such different kinds of folks together. You have, like, drag queens and, like, cowboys who voted for Trump, like, all, like, dancing to 9 to 5. You know what I mean? Like, I think that is I just want us to just reconnect to music in in a way that is so beautifully universal and and connective and communal, that transcends, I think, a lot of the identity politics that we're living in right now. And then if music's not your game, get out in nature. That's what I read about in the book book too, in addition to music, is take a 10 minute walk outside and just commune with a tree, you know, with the sounds of nature around you. Or if you're lucky enough to have more than 10 minutes out in nature, get out for an afternoon or a day, you know, and just be on a trail and, be connected to where it is that we come from and where we will all end up, you know, which is back into this beautiful, planet that we inhabit.

Scott Shigeoka [00:48:21]:
And I think that's a great place for us to respect it better and also to build a sense of curiosity and connection to ourselves and to others. So those are my recommendations.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:48:33]:
Thank you so much for this conversation. You have me even more curious about curiosity than I've ever been before, and I'm so grateful for you and for your work.

Scott Shigeoka [00:48:41]:
Yay. So grateful for you too, Bonni. This is so fun.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:48:47]:
Thanks once again to Scott Shigeoka for joining me on today's episode of Teaching in Higher Ed. Today's episode was produced by me, Bonni Stachowiak. It was edited by the ever talented Andrew Kroeger. Podcast production support was provided by the amazing Sierra Priest. And you would be amazing if you were to subscribe to the weekly Teaching in Higher Ed Dave, if you haven't already. Head over to teachinginhighered.com/subscribe, and you'll receive the most recent show notes, And you don't have to remember to go look them up on the episode Dave, and you'll also receive other resources that don't show up on those regular show note pages. So head over to teachinginhighered.com/subscribe, and I'll see you next time on Teaching in Higher Ed.