Bonni Stachowiak [00:00:00]:
Today on episode number 504 of the Teaching in Higher Ed podcast, Higher Education for Good, with Katharine Cronin and Laura Cenjiec. Welcome to this episode of Teaching in Higher Ed. I'm Bonni Stachowiak, and this is the space where we explore the art and science And so being more effective at facilitating learning. We also share ways to improve our productivity approaches so we can have more peace in our lives and be even more present for our students.I'm so excited to be welcoming back to the show, Catherine Cronin, and for the first time, Laura Czerniewicz. Laura has worked in education throughout her life in one way or another as a teacher or teacher educator, working in educational publishing, then moving to the academy where she has had a number of roles, including leading centers and research, and she's now professor emerita at the University of Cape Town, South Africa. Throughout her various roles professionally and academically, There has been this thread that you'll hear throughout the interview focusing on digital and social inequalities. Katharine Cronin is an independent scholar focused on critical and social justice approaches in digital, open, and higher education.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:01:36]:
She coedited the recently published book, Higher Education For Good, which today's episode is focused on, Teaching and Learning Futures with Laura. And she recently completed a research fellowship and coedited a special issue of Learning Media and Technology Feminist Perspectives on Learning Media and Educational Technology. In December 2021, she finished a 3 year strategic role at Ireland's National Forum for the enhancement of teaching and learning in higher education, where she worked as digital and open education lead. She's a regular contributor to collaborative projects and conversations in the areas of digital, open, and higher education within Ireland and globally. Her academic background includes a PhD in open education, a master's in women's studies, gender and technology, and a master's in engineering systems and engineering, and a bachelor's of science in mechanical engineering. She has been involved in teaching, research, and advocacy in higher education and in the community for over 35 years. Laura and Catherine, welcome to Teaching in Higher Ed.

Catherine Cronin [00:03:01]:
So happy to be here, Bonni.

Laura Czerniewicz [00:03:03]:
It's wonderful to be here, Bonni. Thanks for inviting us.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:03:07]:
I am so thankful that this is actually the 2nd conversation I get to be some small part of about a tremendous work. I almost wanna call it a work of art, but I don't know. I I mean, it's Art and science, I mean, it's just beautiful. And I want to first let listeners know that we're gonna be having a conversation about a collaborative work that is over 700 pages. So Laura and Catherine and I, I mean, there's so much we could talk about, and I'm just so grateful for the few minutes that we get to spend together today. I'm going to Start with despair, but promise listeners we will end with some hope. What are some of the reasons why hope feels so out of reach in the Moment We Find Ourselves in.

Laura Czerniewicz [00:03:55]:
I think I'll I'll start with that. It's something that both Katherine and I were starting to feel ourselves when we started this project. So I'm in Cape Town in South Africa. Catherine's outside Galway in Ireland, Very different contexts, and yet we would find in conversations that they were similar feelings, similar discourses. And we started exploring, is this just us? It's just this moment? And we started to realize that this is something being shared by a number of people in a number of contexts. And we are great people who believe in context, and yet across these contexts in higher education, we are finding that People are in a state of despair. I'm talking about academics in particular, but we could be talking about students too. But from an academic's point of view, Despair about the impact of austerity.

Laura Czerniewicz [00:04:52]:
I think very largely across the sector, The underfunding of higher education to a greater leg a lesser extent, and then a discourse And a set of practices around casualization. So the kind of notion of this 10 year journey and it all you know, if you work hard enough and you persevere, you'll get that job and then you'll have it till you retire. That's just nostalgia. So what What we're seeing also is is unbundling of roles, contracts, a gig economy. Worst case scenario is a kind of gig economy of academia. And the if you throw that into the mix with climate change crisis, growing inequality as it plays out in in different places, It adds up to a pretty despairing moment, and I'm sure Katherine has some other dimensions to add.

Catherine Cronin [00:05:49]:
Oh, that's that's perfect, Laura. And, towards the end of what you just said, was what I was thinking, which is that all of these Problems within higher education and the challenges that we see into the future are within a context where there is so much insecurity, multiple forms of inequality that are often intersecting the climate crisis as Laura said. Datafication, Broadly speaking and particularly encroachment of big tech in higher education, so it was what's happening within HE In this bigger context and, of course, we started talking about this in June of 2021, which was still the very Awful days of COVID and lockdowns and so on. So, yeah, despair was where we started when we started talking about this book.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:06:37]:
Catherine, thank you for tying back to what Laura said. You're You were both reminding me of a children's book. It's my favorite book I can recall as a child. It's called Hope for the Flowers. And if neither one of you has ever heard of it before, I'll have to send you a note separate from this. But Hope for the Flowers is a story about 2 caterpillars that Keep they see these these silos off in the distance, and they just go toward them. They feel propelled toward them, And they just start climbing, and everybody's climbing and climbing and climbing, and nobody knows what's at the top of this thing. And they see some people I I shouldn't say people.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:07:12]:
I should say caterpillars Being thrown off these silos, and that looks rather disturbing as we step on each other's heads to try to get to the top of whatever this is that we're climbing toward. And you just reminded me of that story of especially, Laura, what you were sharing, just you're trying to get somewhere. But where is that that we are trying to go? And one of the challenges, not to spoil the story for you, but one of the challenges with hope for the flowers is really due to a lack of imagination, not knowing what might be possible for a caterpillar rather than to climb I'm the silo and step on other people's heads. So, before we get to a little bit about the role of imagination, Laura, I know you've got something to share on this too.

Laura Czerniewicz [00:07:57]:
I think I would just like to emphasize that, Catherine and I sound like we understand what the despair is about. I don't think we did when we started this project, and I don't think many people who are in that circumstance have got the time or the headspace To understand what the nature of the despair is. And so in our book, the first thing that we Actually, exposed is what the nature of the despair is, and we say that people you know that you talk about children's stories, Bonni. There's a children's story that goes, you can't go over it. You can't go under it. You've got to go through it. Yes. So you have to go through it.

Laura Czerniewicz [00:08:38]:
You have to confront what this despair is before you can go to the next step. And so The beginning the opening chapter, in fact, is an absolutely extraordinary and elegant indictment of higher education. And Once you've done that, you can start moving forward to what do you do, what's the role of imagination.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:08:59]:
Yes. And, of course, part of going through it is naming those things, and the the work so beautifully offers up opportunities for these artists, these authors, these poets to name sometimes in a very contextual way and other ways in a very universal way and sort of weaving between those types of narratives. Yes. And and perhaps a a good place for us all to sit in is never feeling like we could ever possibly Truly understand, but certainly this this magnificent collaboration helps to to offer those perspectives. So I'd love to hear you share a little bit about imagination. I'm fascinated by imagination and Especially in this case, what kind of a role do you see imagination playing in bringing about higher education for good?

Laura Czerniewicz [00:09:53]:
The thing with imagination is that it requires space, requires headspace. It requires you talk about relaxation. It requires The the opportunity for a sweet spot. And one of the terrifying aspects So this moment of despair is there's so little room for imagination, and people feel that they have to have grand imaginations. And what we are hoping to show through this project is that little moments of imagination are good enough. Little moments of Glimmers of innovation, not in the business sense of the word, but in the imaginative sense of the word, are good enough. Little opportunities for doing something different, even if it's very contextual, can lead to something else. So the through the the project, we Dave this notion of seeds and trees and planting seeds.

Laura Czerniewicz [00:10:49]:
And imagination is about planting lots of seeds, some of which will be shared. I don't know if you read Overstory, but, you know, they talk about he talks about how trees talk to each other. So planting those seeds of communication And providing hope through the planting of the seeds and through the possibility of imagination.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:11:09]:
I read a different book about how trees talk to each other. And I'm going to have to look up, and I'll I'll put it I'll put both in the show notes. But, yes, this idea, this beauty of the trees. And I have to share a quick anecdote, and then I know Catherine has Some to add to this this importance of imagination, but I had the opportunity to go to your book release party before I had finished reading. And so it was so interesting, Frances Bell mentioned something called slow ontology, which I had never heard of before. But as soon as those words came out of her mouth, I thought, is this one of those things where something comes into you? And I just felt I need to learn more about this, and then it was so fun Reading her chapter and going, oh, well, she probably thought I didn't do my homework. Well, I just didn't I did it in preparation for today, not in preparation for the book release. But, yes, such a idea of the power of leaving that space and the power of the slowness.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:12:05]:
And then, of course, she talks about this FEM Ed quilting project, which my mother has been a quilter for much of her life. And I I thought and I I also love the book, has so many pictures in it too. And I didn't I wasn't really expecting that because not a lot of books To have that vibrant and colorful of pictures, and I thought I have to show this to my mother and show her all these these women that came together to to share those stories. And, of course, when that project originated, not knowing what would be to come in the way that these stitches is what we view together across countries and cultures and continents with hope and despair. Yes. So, Catherine, what what would you like to share? Yeah. About imagination.

Catherine Cronin [00:12:51]:
Yeah. Imagination was really important to us, and we were inspired as so many others have been by the work of Octavia Butler who talks about using imagination, imagination beyond the given that we can dream our way out. So I love that you mentioned the FEMEDTech Quilts there, and there's a chapter on the FEMEDTech Quilt in the book, a multi author chapter. We tried to model those values that we're gonna be talking about in this conversation in the process of creating the book. So we knew really close to the start that we would invite people to share their imaginative approaches, speculative approaches, speculative fiction, But we also wanted to stretch open the boundaries of a book and includes artwork and photographs send poetry and ways of dreaming, ways of thinking to invite in those imaginative approaches. So we we think we've done that, and it's lovely to hear responses like yours that you feel that when you look at the book.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:13:52]:
Yes, so much. This next question feels unfair because there is so much here in this part of the book, multiple chapters. But what comes to mind for you When you think of some of the the changes being called for around teaching, assessment, and learning design. As as we expand our imagination, you know, what what do we then think is being evoked out of that imaginative capacity?

Catherine Cronin [00:14:18]:
Yeah. I can start, and then I'm sure Laura can come in there. We the book is huge as you said. So we constructed the book In into 5 different sections, and one of those 5 sections, section 3 is or section 4 rather is called making change through teaching assessment and learning design. So for anyone who thinks I don't really need a 700 page book in my life, there's a section of the book that that we signposted so that anybody who's interested in, like, Actual approaches and examples of things that people have used can go just to that section. There's another section which Has a lot of theoretical approaches. There's another section with a lot of the speculative approaches and so on. But that section, making change to teaching assessment and learning design, has Single authored and multiauthored chapters with examples from 11 different countries.

Catherine Cronin [00:15:08]:
So there's a chapter called Humanizing Learning Design, Which used the work of adrienne brown to imagine and articulate and demonstrate ways of humanizing learning design using the The writing of adrienne brown as an inspiration. There's a chapter written in the form of a dialogue about assessment. Two authors speaking back and forth to one another from 2 different disciplines about using ethical approaches to assessment. I'm I'm pausing here because I feel like we should mention authors, but I'm I don't want to leave any authors out. So I'm not sure what what to do here, Lauren. What what do you think?

Laura Czerniewicz [00:15:45]:
I think using the examples of the chapters is it is great.

Catherine Cronin [00:15:49]:
Okay. Yes. So I'll I'll direct people to to section 4 of the book. So those are 2 examples, learning design and assessment, and then there are many with respect to teaching. And, Laurie, you might come in and identify a couple of those.

Laura Czerniewicz [00:16:02]:
I think also to add to that is not only are there these lovely cases Where people in a really wide range of context speak of what they tried and what happened and what they did, including in one case where people were Developing a multilingual glossary about trees, and they actually landed up going and planting trees outside the university. So Just these lovely cases. What you also see through those particular chapters is a set of values, I think. And Sometimes that set of values is at odds with the measuring systems in the university because People are calling for and trying to enable and enact collective and collaborative Ways of learning and ways of teaching as well. And even the assessment, which, of course, is the most tricky one because it tends to be so Deeply individualistic in terms of exams, etcetera. I think that's one of the things that is strikingly present through those many examples. Is it it's a different value proposition actually around what Learning might look like.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:17:17]:
And I think you're so right to put the emphasis on the examples. I regularly attempt to remind myself Of the context in which I grew up, it is very hard to imagine what it might look like without individualistic I mean, I I have To children then and when we come home and and they have wonderful teachers at their school who I have so many good things, but who are hindered in the same way that I recognize myself as our our, one of our kids came home and is very proud as they should be of being said that they gave an amazing presentation in their class and the the teacher said it was the best that she's ever seen in her career. And I thought, like, I mean, it's wonderful, and yet I think, oh gosh. You know? I don't I don't know. Do we want to be striving to be the best? And and so I I think about these things carefully with with intentionality, just realizing on a daily basis my lack of imagination around what a different way of assessing may look like were we not to to do it. And and just to think about the Words that come out of our mouths both as parents, potentially caregivers, and educators, and really wanting to do that with, with a renewed Lens for what these things could look like. Yeah. And I and I I see you and experience both of you as struggling because there's so much here.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:18:41]:
People have contributed in so many unique ways to give us these glimpses, and I love that it draws from the work of adrienne maree brown among others to say, no. You are not reinventing everything. You don't have to do. The smallest of small, small things can transform the world. So Mhmm.

Laura Czerniewicz [00:19:01]:
And when I think of your children's teachers, Bonni, What is going to be rewarded? What are they going to be rewarded for? So one of our chapters is somebody Talking about her journey enacting pedagogies of care and how the system actually is really in conflict with that approach, and she has to insist rather than be rewarded for For a set of values that she believes very strongly in and the tension that creates in the system and yet at the same time, the Appreciation from her students. So it's despite rather than because of.

Catherine Cronin [00:19:42]:
Yes. Yes. Yes. It's such a great example, Laura. And I'm thinking as you're both speaking that one of the themes in the book is about crossing boundaries. Some of the authors talk about it, and we talk about it in our introduction. And, obviously, that's happening in the fact that the book is very Global in the sense of representation and the various context, but even within individual chapters, that happens as well. And the 1st chapter in That that section on teaching learning teaching assessment and learning design is by is called a design justice approach universal design for learning, and it takes that very accepted and widely acclaimed model of UDL and applies a design justice lens to it, and it's written by 4 graduate students from the University of Cape Town who worked as technology advisers during COVID.

Catherine Cronin [00:20:33]:
And it's very grounded in their experience and their challenges of trying to use this model, which was developed in a Western context in a wholly different context and inviting people who might be using UDL to perhaps, again, stretch their conceptions of access To maybe apply that a little more judiciously. Again, just one example.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:20:55]:
Yeah. One example of so many. How might vulnerability and humanizing learning play a role? I know you mentioned humanizing learning earlier, but anything else you'd like to share about vulnerability or humanizing learning?

Laura Czerniewicz [00:21:10]:
So I think there's a risk, and it's a risk that we see through the examples people provide, And it's the risk of a kind of neoliberalizing of individual well-being. So the system that acknowledges that people are taking strain, whether it's through the pandemic, etcetera, and encouraging them to, I don't know. Mindfulness practice or something like that. So in other words, Risking that their vulnerability becomes an individual issue and asking them to perform their vulnerable vulnerability. And so although we have a commitment to showing the individual individual acts of resistance and agency, There's also a thread around systemic structural injustices, and we Wouldn't want to be suggesting that that vulnerability and that that personalized care is something that individuals can do to resolve structural issues, and Which is why we Dave chapters on systemic change. So there is another section in the book which is about an entire system that is being reconceptualized as an ecology with a lot of different parts. And there are arguments made for open education and open distance learning As a system. So I'm, what I'm trying to say is that the vulnerability shouldn't be simply an individual Act.

Laura Czerniewicz [00:22:47]:
That as soon as you start talking about people in that way, you you really have to look at the interplay with the structures and the systems. And higher education I feel like higher education has gone so far into this free market, Completely free market model that the pendulum has got to come back again. It's we're not you're not talking about some kind of state Version of of education. You're talking about something where there is where steering and monitoring and care built into the system, Not simply in the hands of individuals.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:23:20]:
Yeah. So much of that too with the so the the other side of that, Laura, that I'm that I'm hearing is if if it is based on individuals, then it comes right back to then it's our fault for not fixing it. So it's Exactly.

Laura Czerniewicz [00:23:33]:
Exactly. And we we definitely wouldn't want to give that impression.

Catherine Cronin [00:23:39]:
Yeah. And and we yes. That so well said, Laura. And We, again, in the process of creating the book and editing and working with authors and artists, We did our best to acknowledge the vulnerability of of each of the contributors in in developing the work that they Produced for the book and sharing it with each other and also voicing things that can be Uncomfortable and even dangerous in their own respective contexts. And that appears then in our, What we call towards a manifesto, because we don't claim to have a manifesto for for Higher Education for Good, but we write towards a manifesto, Knitting together a lot of what we read across all the contributions. And the last one of the tenets is make positive change here and now. And In that tenet we talk about because we recognized it in the work, the importance of communality and coalition, not just collaboration but coalition, which arises kind of political and social justice work, you know, of of acting together. And so that's that's what the authors are doing in the book, but we saw that that's Really how change happens in so many context, obviously, not just higher education.

Laura Czerniewicz [00:24:57]:
So just to add to what Katherine was saying, As she was Katherine, as you were talking, I was remembering how important the process of this project has been. And you will have noticed, Bonni, that If you look at the 70 plus authors and you look at their roles and their positions, they vary dramatically From full professors to professional staff to teaching advisers to students. And for some people, that can be really intimidating. And so as Katherine was saying, the process of enabling and encouraging was really important. This was not a book that was, Send us your piece. If it's not good enough, it's out. This was a book about there was a this was a project about giving voice And speaking to the concerns and asking what is to be done. And, I mean, you were at the one of the launches.

Laura Czerniewicz [00:25:50]:
You'll know people Spoke about the process being enabling. Mhmm. And that might be invisible in the sense of when you have that 700 page book, but for us, that's enormously gratifying response that people were able to be vulnerable and go through that process. Because we know writing is hard and academia is cruel.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:26:11]:
Yes. So before we get to the recommendations segment, I'm would invite either or both of you to share what's sustaining you right now.

Catherine Cronin [00:26:21]:
It it is an extraordinary thing to to be at this stage, I have to say. Laura and I have have had Had weekly and and sometimes many much more than weekly conversations for two and a half years about the book, and now it's out. And it's the work of Seventy plus people, all of whom have something to say and all of whom are having conversations about it. So it's, You know, it was a chorus of all of these people, and now it's, you know, it's multiple choruses. So what's sustaining us is Is that the fact that, as Laura said at the start, we don't see it as just a book? We know other people Extraordinary people are doing work similar to this, you know, in this vein. We wanna engage with them, with others, with people who Who who are struggling to find their own voice. We wanna keep that going. So we have plans.

Catherine Cronin [00:27:13]:
This podcast is 1, and we have other plans To join other small smaller groups and smaller conversations. But when we get to the when we get to the recommendations, you'll see that also things that have nothing to do with Books and texts are also inspiring, each of us. And art, I had a 2 week visit to family in the states recently, Walking, getting outdoors, just all of those those wonderful kind of bodily sustaining things are really important to snow. And I'll save save the rest for the holidays.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:27:45]:
I can't wait. I can't wait. As Laura mentioned, I was able to go to your book release party, and I had Wondered what it might be like. And this this I I would just wanna say out front is very much me recognizing projection in myself, but But the comment, some some people stayed till the very end, and it was like, oh, and then now what are you gonna do? And we wanna be involved in it. And I thought, like, I I on on your behalf, I felt somewhat like, you know what? Maybe they should just sit in a rocking chair for a couple of months and just do nothing. But But so but but again, that's I don't wanna sound like I was I don't wanna personalize the person who chose to share their excitement in that way. I just and and it's so much for my myself as I think that not to compare myself to the 2 of you, but I I'm I'm looking forward to In June of 2024 will be 10 years that every single week I've aired a podcast.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:28:38]:
And so my plans are after you've done this for 10 years, You are gonna take a month off at the holidays, and you are gonna take a month off in our summers here in this part of the globe. But but the I have to say that feels scary, though. You know? I mean, it feel it, Like, what a silly thing. What is what an absolutely silly thing to feel terrified by breaking a streak. But again, it goes back to my own context. So I think some of the real that side back to the silos, climbing, climbing, climbing, you know, you're doing, doing, doing, and not us not being very good as human beings at the being part of So, yeah, Laura, what's sustaining you right now?

Laura Czerniewicz [00:29:15]:
So you when you started asking us about the the Provenance of the book, we spoke about our own exhaustion. And both of us have been people who have Enfold with enthusiasm and activism and research as contribution, and We were both so exhausted, and the process of making this book has resuscitated us. So We are now in the opposite situation you've just described, ready to engage again. It's actually been Sounds like a counterintuitive things to say. It's actually been hugely energizing even though it's been a massive amount of work. It's been the right kind of work. It hasn't been stupid work. It hasn't been surveillance work.

Laura Czerniewicz [00:30:04]:
It hasn't been Why on earth am I doing this work? It's actually been hard work. And so can continuing to have these conversations and to give spaces and to organize for For the the author's voices to be heard and disseminated gives us incredible joy. So having said that, Catherine knows because every single conversation we have ends with me saying, and now I'm going for a swim. So what sustains me is swimming in the sea, winter and summer. Oh. And that's one of the bizarre things that happened in COVID. You know, People moved out of the city. So at the heart of lockdown, we moved right next to the sea, and I've been swimming ever since.

Laura Czerniewicz [00:30:48]:
And in my mind, the 2 things are interconnected.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:30:51]:
Oh, such a beautiful beautiful picture. I'm picturing you now, Laura. That's wonderful. Well, this is the time in the show where we each get to share our recommendations. It won't surprise listeners that I would love to recommend Higher Education for Good. And as Catherine mentioned earlier, this is not a book that you necessarily need to read It threw from start to finish, although that was the route that I chose to do. But boy, those chapters, I I I Think you recommended this in the the book release party, but perhaps starting with Robin DeRosa's book where that we really do just get rooted in the despair. Maybe we we I don't think we Bonni quick Dave to the quote unquote fixes, you know, Without that but after that, I think after rooting ourselves and naming some of the despair, then there's so many possibilities.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:31:43]:
It's like the Books I used to read as a kid, the choose your own adventure and you're you don't have enough fingers of all the little chapters that you'd like to go Begin exploring, but it's just so wonderful. And and I, I love it for so many reasons. I love it because of the context with which it speaks, but also I love it for the broader ways in which we might reimagine books and reimagine Collaboration. And, Catherine, I wanna do a little bit of thinking on coalitions versus collaboration, and I I wanna explore that more even after you're just sharing that. So That's the first thing I would like to recommend, and it's a it's available where we can purchase it and hold it in our hands, but we also can Read it online for free, and, it is an open educational resource, and what a resource at that. The second thing I wanted to recommend is I'm sad to say that it's going away, a podcast called Tapestry. And so I'm gonna recommend The Best of Tapestry. They have a page dedicated on their web website.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:32:41]:
This is a Canadian podcast, and they on their website call themselves Tapestry is Your Guide Through the messy business of being human, you'll hear surprising conversations and rediscover your connection to something larger than yourself. Tapestry, your time to pause and go deep. And Tapestry is one of those podcasts that every time it would come out on my queue, I just thought I I was never disappointed to move it right to the top of the list, and was just sad to know that the project is coming to the end. But it's part of the broader CBC Network. And so the page is still there, and all of those wonderful episodes and conversations to get us think about that messy business of being human are still there for us to to go and enjoy and visit and revisit. So those are my 2 recommendations. And, Laura, I'm gonna pass it over to you for yours.

Laura Czerniewicz [00:33:30]:
So you'll have gathered that The visual is really important for Katherine and I, and it was wonderful to find the extent to which this resonated for all of us for both of us, I mean. And it was really important for us to be able to have artwork of different kinds and that could be in color and and so on. Let what I'm gonna recommend is a little bit like tapestries, but it's actually nondigital, and it's art. And we have been hugely enabled by the digital. Throughout the making of this book, Catherine and I have met virtually every week for over 2 years. We'd we'd met with the authors virtually. We've run everything virtually, and thank goodness we could. But at the same time, I crave The material.

Laura Czerniewicz [00:34:19]:
And so I'm gonna recommend something called the Paris Collage Collective. And the Paris Collage Collective Offers a weekly prompt for people to make collages, and then people send them in and share what they've made. And it's about imagination. It's you can actually make them digitally if you want to, but I don't. I make them on paper With paper, tearing paper, cutting paper, putting that together in a range of ways. And when you look at what people have done with that same prompt, it is so Freeing and opening up, and it's really about that space that you were talking about us all needing so desperately. So that's my, perhaps, unexpected recommendation.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:35:04]:
Oh, I cannot wait to go explore that some more. Catherine, what do you have to recommend today?

Catherine Cronin [00:35:08]:
I brought a recommendation which has links with Laura's. So funny. This happens quite often. But can I slip 1 under the door before I say that? Because you mentioned the quilt, so I just want to share the FEMED Tech website, which, you know, the network itself and the FEMED Tech Quilt are such wonderful examples of crossing boundaries, you know, within and beyond higher education, feminist principles that That can feed so much of our work, so I wanna share the FEMEDtech open space as it's called. But the what I wanted to share as part of inspiration was, as I mentioned, I went on a trip to the States to visit family. I have family on the West Coast and the East Coast, And I saw both of them, and I immersed myself in art. I went to museums in San Francisco and Washington and New York. And Alma Thomas, her art just blew me away, and I was just I've been thinking about it and talking about it since I got back.

Catherine Cronin [00:36:05]:
And in one of the museums, MOAD, that that I was in in San Francisco. I bought a children's book about her art called Ablaze with Color. So for so many reasons, if anybody is buying their children books, Children who are who love artwork or creating of any kind, I highly recommend it. It's just beautiful as is Alma Thomas' art.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:36:25]:
Wonderful. Laura and Catherine, it's been such a joy to get to have this conversation with you today. And, Catherine, you coming back on teaching higher ed after all these years? I'm trying to remember how how long the bar was. I know. It's been a really long time. We've been through a lot as they say. You're both such generous people and wise and and kind, and thank you for today and for all that you give the world.

Catherine Cronin [00:36:49]:
Thank you so much, Bonni.

Laura Czerniewicz [00:36:51]:
And what a wonderful conversation and authentic, which is really great.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:36:59]:
Thanks once again to Catherine Cronin and Laura Czerniewicz for coming on Teaching in Higher Ed and Sharing About Higher Education for Good. Today's episode was produced by me, Bonni Stachowiak. It was edited by the ever talented Andrew Kroeger. Podcast production support was provided by the amazing Sierra Priest. Truly, thanks to each of you for listening. And if you would like to be connected in other ways with the Ways in which I'm thinking and wrestling with some of these issues, I suggest you sign up for the teaching in higher ed weekly update. You can head over to teachinginhighered.com/subscribe. That will get to the most recent episodes, show notes along with some other resources that don't show up on those regular show notes dedicated pages.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:37:50]:
Thanks for listening, and I'll see you next time on Teaching in Higher Ed.