Bonni Stachowiak [00:00:00]:
Today on episode number 503 of the Teaching in Higher Ed podcast, online learning around the globe with Leni Casimiro and Safary Wa-Mbaleka. Welcome to this episode of Teaching in Higher Ed. I'm Bonni Stachowiak, and this is the space where we explore the art and science of being more effective at facilitating learning. We also share ways to improve our productivity approaches is so we can have more peace in our lives and be even more present for our students. Safary Wa-Mbaleka is an associate professor of leadership in higher education at Bethel University in Saint Paul, Minnesota in the United States. He teaches doctoral research classes fully online. He's been teaching in higher education since 2003. For more than 15 years, he has designed and taught online courses in various institutions.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:01:09]:
He has taught in various countries in Asia, Africa, and the Caribbean. With a PhD in instructional design for online learning, He has worked as an instructional designer, online course designer, online course facilitator, director of online instructional design, director of online education and consultant for online education for the government, various industries, Universities and a Corporation. He was the lead editor of the Dave Handbook of Online Higher Education. He's a prolific author and has published many books, book chapters, and journal articles about online education. 

Also joining me today for the interview is Leni Casimiro, PhD. She's an educator, researcher, and administrator serving currently As professor of education at the Adventist International Institute of Advanced Studies, A graduate level education institution in the Philippines that is managed by the general conference of 7th day adventists based in Maryland in the United States of America. She is the education department chair and associate dean of the AIIAS Graduate school. She's also served as the director of AIIAS online, and with more than 20 years in online education, Worked in various capacities as an instructional designer, faculty and student support coordinator, and course developer, in addition to being an online administrator.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:02:49]:
As head of quality monitoring and evaluation of online programs, She has written quality standards for online education used in some institutions. This expertise has enabled Doctor Leni to serve as an online learning consultant and training leader in various higher education institutions in the US, Canada, South America, Europe, Africa, and Asia. She's also been part of accreditation teams for graduate level programs of institutions in Asia and Africa, and as a peer reviewer in scholarly journals. As a researcher, she's been a presenter and invited speaker at both local and international conferences and has published research papers Dave various refereed journals and books. Her research interests focus mainly on online education such as instructional design, student engagement, teaching strategies, administration, quality standards, and learning analytics among others. Safary and Leni, welcome to Teaching in Higher Ed.

Leni Casimiro [00:03:59]:
Thank you. Welcome.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:04:02]:
I'm so glad to be speaking with each of you Dave, and I would love for us to start. Leni, tell us a little bit about how did you first to get started being interested in online learning.

Leni Casimiro [00:04:15]:
Well, I was an elementary school teacher to begin with. It was in early 2000 when somebody in the university approached me. Could you help us believer online education. I said, no. I don't know anything about online. And then I said and then he said, well, We could train you. I said, I know nothing. Okay.

Leni Casimiro [00:04:41]:
If you want to really be part of us, we can give you a PhD Opportunity. And so I thought about it. Okay. I'll be given an opportunity to Dave PhD education in this employment. I better grab it. I don't know about online learning.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:05:03]:
Oh, what a fascinating opportunity. Yeah.

Leni Casimiro [00:05:07]:
And so they said, okay. We'll learn about it together, And then we'll begin an online department in this university. So that's how I began. I started with nothing, And then we tried to explore together. It was very nice experience because there are lots of organizations in the US that really helped me. Like Sloan Consortium? It helped me a lot. OLC was not yet here then, but Sloan Consortium helped me a lot. I emailed them personally when I have questions, challenges, and they helped me a lot, I tell you.

Leni Casimiro [00:05:47]:
And that's how I began.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:05:49]:
The whole idea, you said, we'll learn about it together. That isn't that a wonderful both humility and curiosity that can take us so far in life? What Had that story. It's just so emblematic of that. Safary, what was your experience like? How did you first get interested in this format?

Safary Wa-Mbaleka [00:06:09]:
This is quite interesting that it looks like for all of us who joined online education in the early days, We have similar stories. You know? It's the 1st time I hear this story from Leni. I was also doing my doctorate. I was in the my 1st year of my doctoral studies And our university, I was, studying at Northern, Arizona University. They were trying to integrate online learning, online courses, And they needed people who would volunteer to be part of, this new experiment of offering online courses. And as a doctoral students who were approached, they said, hey. Anybody wants to jumping to this. Of course, I wanted anything that's new.

Safary Wa-Mbaleka [00:06:49]:
I'm excited about it. So I joined, among the very first ones, especially from the students to join online education. We went through training, workshops, some 2 hours, 4 hours, 6 hours, different train different workshops. And that was, back in 2003. And that's how I joined. I taught my 1st course. It was a disaster Because I had taken, I think, only 2 courses as a student, so I didn't really know much about what was happening on the other side. It was a disaster.

Safary Wa-Mbaleka [00:07:24]:
But over the years, for for for those who were able to impress it at the very beginning, we were We were asked to teach over and over and over again, so we grew a lot faster than the people who adapted that much later. So once I knew how to actually do it, eventually, I went to study and get a degree in about online education, Then it really became a part of who I am today as an educator.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:07:51]:
Both of your stories contain that humility, That curiosity to know more, and then I'm also hearing a thread of being very self aware. Safary, a lot of people can't say, you know, it was a disaster, and they can't say it for at least two reasons. 1, because sometimes they don't realize it was a disaster. I mean, you do have to be a certain amount of aware of what's happening in order to do that. And then sometimes we're just not humble enough to recognize that that was not living up to the expectations that we have for ourselves and others. Well, you have both embarked in such a a Project that when I heard about it, this book got me so curious. You've had an opportunity to edit a collection of work from People from all around the world, specifically looking at online education. Safary, I'd love to have you start with some reflections.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:08:45]:
What are some key Differences that you uncovered about how online education is approached in all these various parts of the world.

Safary Wa-Mbaleka [00:08:55]:
There was quite a number of things that we learned in working together with colleagues from around the world. Number 1, There are so many experts around the world beyond North America. My education and my training for online education was in in the United States. But as we're interacting with these many different, scholars, it became clear that There is some level of contextualization of online education. When online education started, I would say When it started getting really serious in, in the early 2000, it was more of a synchronous asynchronous learning, Just typing, which is still predominant in fully online programs where you just, you know, read and do your assignments, post them get involved in, written online discussions. But as we were working with Working with the different people, it became clear that the definition of online education is much more expanded. And especially with A lot of the the tools that are available today that facilitate collaboration. They facilitate live live meetings.

Safary Wa-Mbaleka [00:10:12]:
So while we have on one side the what I can refer to as the traditional online education, which is Purely almost 100% asynchronous. We have now a a a large spectrum all the way to the People who teach on Zoom and they call it also online education. So and and then a lot of things that are happening between The the 2 extremes. And one of the reasons why this is also happening is that some places, we have issues of electricity and Internet connectivity. That is not an issue, for example, here in the United States. We can have videos and things like that, live sessions. Here in the US, we Bonni really have struggle too much about with the Internet. While in other places, you may have Internet, that is not stable or electricity that's stable that will affect how this is done.

Safary Wa-Mbaleka [00:11:08]:
So all these things, all these factors, They became clear that they affect how people deliver online education in addition to The level of expertise of online education, because those who have been in the business for many years, they have deeper understanding of How to teach, how to design, how to deliver online education. While those who started a few a few years ago, some started during the COVID nineteen, They are just doing the bare minimum, running with kind of emergency remote, teaching Modality. So those these are some of the different things that came up as we're working with different scholars.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:11:53]:
And, Leni, as you think through some of those differences that Safary mentioned, do you see some unity though? Some similarities that were surprising to you or that just really came through in the work, in the collaboration?

Leni Casimiro [00:12:07]:
Yeah. I as I just mentioned a while ago when I was introducing myself how I Started with online learning. I already told you about how I learned about online education. So, basically, A lot of principles we use in online teaching come from the West. Mhmm. Basically, from the US. However, as doctor as Safary has said a while ago, there's a lot of contextualization. You see, there are lots of of challenges in the area, particularly if you're outside the US.

Leni Casimiro [00:12:38]:
Like, for example, I'm here in Asia. When I started, most people don't even like online learning. They don't believe in its quality. Its acceptability is questionable. They can't imagine when I train The faculty on how to teach online, they would almost shrug their shoulders and won't attend my seminars. And so It it was it was the kind of attitude I met. However, as they went through the process, as the I led them to the The real purpose of online education of, you know, reaching the unreached student groups, People who cannot come to the campus, they got to embrace that kind of mission. You know? And so they said, wow.

Leni Casimiro [00:13:27]:
This is the mission of our school to reach those people who can come to the campus, And so they learn to love online education, and so that's one thing that's kinda different. But In terms of principles of teaching online, yes, we got we we have similarities, a lot of similarities. We get to start from the western point of view. And then as we deal with our local context, we adjust according to the Culture of the people Bonni how they learn. There are cultures who are, like, dependent on teachers because teachers are looked upon as Authorities that cannot be questioned. There are also issues like technical capabilities, the the the contextual situation of Access and availability of of tools. And then through this process of Challenges in these areas. There's one thing that I really love seeing in these places outside the US.

Leni Casimiro [00:14:34]:
I saw how they utilized the collaborative approach of handling online education. Take for example, here in Asia, we have this Asian Association of Open Universities. They work together. They learn from each other, Helping its other begin an online program, help its other share ideas on how to deal with challenges in the region, And I just love it. And I I like the word coined by one of those professors, coopetition. You know that coopetition coming from the word cooperation and competition. They are competing with each other, but they are, at the same time, cooperating with each other In running their online programs because that's how they will thrive in this kind of modality.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:15:23]:
I love that word so much And that whole spirit of it, it reminds me of the writer, Stephen Covey, who talked about that we have this scarcity mindset. And what a tragedy that we would have a scarcity mindset around something as powerful and transformative as education. And if we think about it as Coopetition, you know, because there there is I mean, I think this is a very western idea too, but the the idea that Competing with each other might may sharpen us in some way. I'm not a particularly competitive person. I grew up taking ballet lessons instead of playing competitive sports. So some of the the intense focus on competition can be lost on me, but, but it does drive a lot of people. I mean, there's certainly human motivation. We would the differences.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:16:12]:
So to put those words together in that way, you were each reminding me of a time some years ago, I was at a conference for a learning management system, and they were they had produced this video about a prison education initiative. And they were talking about some of the challenges with offering education in a prison. Well, they won't let you have at least this time, I don't know if this it still true and or in true in all context? I'm sure it's probably not. But but I recall that they would say you could bring the computers into the prison, but they could not be connected to the Internet. So they had to go and figure out how do we network these computers Together with the learning management system on them, so that they can go through the assignments. And and and so are there any Stories that come to mind in these chapters of unique ways that people were able to contextualize, whether it's Contextualizing based on disciplinary needs or contextually contextualization like I described with the learning management system of needing to modify things. So you already gave some examples around electricity, etcetera. But anything else come to mind of sort of surprises and unique ways people were able to contextualize?

Safary Wa-Mbaleka [00:17:25]:
Actually, one of the things that I saw happen in Africa, because during the COVID nineteen, I was I was working in in Africa, was that many of the higher education ministries, they were pushing for Systems that will allow both online and offline learning. So when you're designing your online programs, you make sure that People can function both online and offline. So there were it's like there's a movement there where they are pushing for Designing online courses that you can that will give you the capability to download everything, the courses it is, And you just save it on your computer and then work and work and work. And when you're done, you can connect and do whatever assignment needs to be done. So I thought that was pretty Unique to deal with the issue of bandwidth, issues of Internet connectivity being expensive or being unreliable Where people can do that. It is something that I remember one specific country that it's was one of the requirements before they could approve Online education to be offered in a university.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:18:34]:
And, Leni, anything come into mind for you of this unique ways people would contextualize?

Leni Casimiro [00:18:40]:
Yeah. One thing that really came to mind was in the quality standards for online education. In the West, you You have a lot of organizations that really come up came about these standards, guidelines on quality online education. And then, of course, there's none yet in some other areas around the world, and so we tried from the outside. We looked At this standards, we even had ourselves recognized by this or evaluated by these people. But then it came about that People observe many of their standards may not work well in our context. Mhmm. And so and so It started this discussion on why don't we make our own standards.

Leni Casimiro [00:19:31]:
And but then There there is this conflict between, you know, local standards and the international standards that we consider the western side of it. And so they coined again another word, globalization. I I love this play of words. You know? Localization is like Those those global standards are adopted on a localized or contextual status, the needs and the challenges and the opportunities in the local settings. And so It was a lot easier to begin with to begins creating standards that cater to the needs of your local context When you already have something in the global scene. So that was that was of I I can I can consider creative? Indinuity is exercised by these experts around the world, outside the western side of the world. And so I would say this kind of online education practice It's really moving the world forward, like, almost although we contextualize things, we tend to unify the whole universe the the whole world because we learn from each other. We tend to embrace each other's differences, And then we also learned that students are now not really locally reachable.

Leni Casimiro [00:21:06]:
Students are now studying everywhere around the world, you know, this internationalization thing. We find students in the US studying in Asia, We also find students study from Asia studying in the US, also in Africa. And so we really tend to know what is happening around the world. What how people learn in various cultures, how online learning should be designed When you offer this in this particular culture, in this particular set of students and so it really is Very enriching knowledge for us to understand the differences between how online learning This approach in various parts of the world.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:21:53]:
Before we get to the recommendations segment, I would I really enjoy hearing from each of you what's gonna be important as we plan for the future of online learning. And Safary, why don't you start? That's such an easy question. Right? To save the It was softball questions.

Safary Wa-Mbaleka [00:22:19]:
It was really easy until aritificial intelligence came in and all these other things that Dave just popped up in the last 12 months. It and I believe that artificial intelligence is going to challenge everything that we knew about online education because now, Basically, you can do a lot of things that we have no control over at this point. I know more and more work is being done in in addressing the issues, but it's not coming as fast as we wish it to to happen in education. I think what as we go look into the future, we need to definitely factor in Artificial intelligence because I don't think it is going to go away. I believe that it's going to be much better Managed and controlled than it is right now because right now it is uncontrolled. I believe it is going to there will be some level of policy to to manage it, but we need to come to realize to to come up with some strategies How to use that in teaching, in learn online teaching, online teaching, online learning, research. Right now, we are underutilizing it Because if for those who are like me, I'm just still using it like Google, but I'm sure they can do a whole lot more than than that. We will need to based on this work that we have produced, I think we will need to continue to contextualize online education and and really try to address the global issues of online education, not just from one perspective.

Safary Wa-Mbaleka [00:23:57]:
This global perspective of online education needs to continue to happen because we are serving the whole globe. When you open online courses, you are opening it to the whole world. So we need to bring in this global perspective. We need to strengthen it so that We will literally break those geographic borders. We only said that 20 years ago that, you know, online education, that's a it's education without borders. But when you take when you you're taking online class, you'd still see that people are predominant predominantly, if it is affiliated to a university, specific university, They are still predominantly within their country, but if we can really break down these, these various Political areas, the geographic areas, the boundaries, then we will be able to offer education that really reflects the whole global perspective and reach and reach as many people as possible. The Issue of accessibility both to technology and cost wise is still something that needs to be addressed. Integrity, academic integrity, it has been from the beginning an issue.

Safary Wa-Mbaleka [00:25:10]:
It's still an issue. We still need to continue to come up with Strategies that are, sustainable, effective, and efficient to deal with.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:25:21]:
Leni, what's coming to mind for you about what we need to be considering regarding the future of online learning?

Leni Casimiro [00:25:28]:
Yeah. That's an important question. I I was looking at the scenario of online education, and I saw I think Yes. I was, helping a student write a paper on online education, current situations that's and what he thinks about the future of it. And what comes to mind is the kind of leaders, education leaders, we we have. For the future of online learning, There must be a change or maybe improvement in the mindset and skill sets of education leaders. We we normally have education leaders nowadays who are traditional or not experienced in online education, And I believe with the entry of AI, the entry of so many developments in technology, so many innovations, Leaders education leaders per se should have a different mindset, a different skill set that's really Forward thinking. They should be forward thinking, open to innovations, and I think that's a very important thing to happen in a university.

Leni Casimiro [00:26:37]:
You don't invest on very traditional people nowadays. I'm sorry to say that, but, Yeah. Leaders must be innovative, must be open minded, must embrace new mindsets and skill sets that Because the future is coming faster than we think about it. We never imagined that AI will be like this. We were all caught unsurprised. And then another thing for peep for countries outside the US, I think one thing that's important for the governments to really consider is the Internet accessibility should be stabilized Because online education is here to stay. Internet accessibility must be a priority. And finally, Again, in relation to AI, I think all education systems, all institutions of higher learning or even in k twelve should really look into integrity issues, academic integrity.

Leni Casimiro [00:27:43]:
Those are the important concerns that I found Oh, prominent, that needs prominent attention from everyone. Leadership, the kind of leaders we have, Internet accessibility, including technology, and then integrity academic integrity.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:28:01]:
Thank you both for sharing these reflections with me, and we're going to move into the recommendations part of the show. Although I do want to mention to listeners that there will be a link to the Dave Handbook of Online Higher Education as today's conversation is just The beginning to get us curious to learn more, so I encourage people to use that link and go to find out more. And as far as recommendations I'm gonna start, I wanted to recommend an episode of the podcast, This American Life, And the episode is called how I learned to Dave. And the subtitle is things our dads taught us whether they intended 2 or not. And the first, if if people aren't familiar, Ira Glass is, very Central to This American Life was the founders of beautiful storyteller. And for anyone who may have complicated relationships with Any family member, be that a father or be that another type of family figure, it was such a beautiful thing for me to just listen and and And hear him sort of talk about a complicated relationship and a man not able to show his love in very traditional ways. And it was both painful to hear because it reminded me of my own family situation, but also was just so beautiful because these are people that are in our lives. And so When you catch these little glimpses of them trying to show their love for us, it can be so beautiful.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:29:30]:
It's a very vulnerable story. And those of you who are familiar with Ira Glass' work, he is not typically a very vulnerable person in terms of sharing his heart in such a raw an authentic way. It was it's a it's only like a 2 or 3 minute part of the story, the introduction of the episode, but it's very beautiful. And then this the way that This American Life works is there's typically 3 different acts that they will do, almost like a play. And so the first one is fun. It's talking about the trapper keeper notebook, which if any of you are in your fifties now or or thereabouts you probably remember having a Trapper Keeper notebook when you are going all of your things could be kept in one place. And So she tells a story of listening to the obituary for the man who was said to have invented the trapper keeper, And she was very surprised by this because she thought that the inventor of the trapper keeper notebook was very much alive And was her dad, not the guy who was written about in the obituary. So it's kind of a fun story where we can reminisce a little bit about those notebooks.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:30:38]:
There's a wonderful story about wolves and, parent relationship of a wolf and a wolf pack and a man who studies wolves, so it was very interesting. And then probably my favorite story of all, but also the one you might least want to to share in mixed company because It touches on a a subject of what intimacy is going to look like in the future, and It's it's a humorous piece. It is a man named Simon Rich who is a writer, and he writes, funny short stories. And so he reads one of his short Story is called history report in which a dad explains how dating works in the future, And and it's a it's a story told in the future explaining how things used to work. Like, how you used to meet someone and talk to them face to face, and Maybe get curious about getting to know them a little bit different and in the future how it's quite different. But as I said, it's it's one that that people would would Probably not want to, listen to around children because it gets a little bit explicit. Not nothing terribly explicit, but just I I try to Give warnings. I found it hysterical.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:31:51]:
I I wanna go back and listen just because it made me laugh so much. I I think it's I love hearing about Cultures and norms and what we consider to be so normal today. And I I also read an article, by the way, because I didn't grow up online dating, and then that really became a thing. And then now I'm hearing that in at least here in the states, people are using it much less than they used to. So these things kinda come full circle Sometimes, who knows what the dating life is gonna look like in in the future once once the robots take over. So anyway, that's my recommendation for today. Dave, Leni, I'm gonna pass it over to you for whatever you would like to recommend.

Leni Casimiro [00:32:29]:
My mind has been going wrong and wrong. There are lots of things that came to my mind, but, Really, I don't I don't have much time to read about stories that what I see are some experiences. Recently, I had a chance of training faculty in k twelve. They they are They they came to my university and wanted to be trained on some strategies and, like, total participation techniques, And they were very happy. They said this is really engaging for the students. And then I stepped back and said, What about online students? Those who don't want to really be in the classroom, how can they Participate well when there's really plain personalized or individ individualized instruction. I think There has to be a lot of improvements here. I recommend really that online experts will not just Looked into the synchronous, you know, the the the style of remote teaching, which is synchronous online, We just can easily duplicate what's happening in a face to face setting.

Leni Casimiro [00:33:50]:
But what about the asynchronous one? Students who are busy working professionals, how do you really create activities that engage them so well That learning becomes really meaningful.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:34:05]:
And, Safary, what do you have to recommend today?

Safary Wa-Mbaleka [00:34:07]:
Yeah. I came across this book just, I think, 2 weeks ago, And I haven't really read much of it, but the title just caught my attention. And I'm trying to connect that to what we're talking about. The title is the courage to be disliked, the Japanese phenomenon that shows you how to change your life and achieve real happiness. The Courage to be Disliked, I I thought that was just I I it just makes you want to read the book because, naturally, we don't want to be disliked. And to bring this in our discussion, when especially for those who are new to online education, maybe a university is You're still at the beginning of integrating online education, and you happen to be one of the leaders who Dave, overseeing that you will step on people's toes. You will you will offend some people. Some people are going to be frustrated because they don't want to change, But you need to have the courage to be disliked because in the in the long run, people look back and say it was worth the pain.

Safary Wa-Mbaleka [00:35:12]:
Just accept this just have this courage to be selected just for now. Later on, things will be alright.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:35:19]:
Oh my gosh. What a whole mix of things we have done, which tends to be how these recommendations work. I Thank you both for joining me for today's conversation, and especially given the time zone challenges, which I only discovered once we hopped on Zoom Gather. So let's just say to the listeners out there that at least 1 of us lacked, being able to sleep as much as you probably needed to. So, thank you so much for your generosity for being here, and I'm excited for your work to get extended out even more people in the world, I really appreciate you being here.

Safary Wa-Mbaleka [00:35:53]:
Thank you so much for having us. It was a great pleasure.

Leni Casimiro [00:35:57]:
Thank you too.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:36:00]:
Thanks once again to Safary Wa-Mbaleka and Leni Casimiro for joining me on today's episode of Teaching in Higher Ed. Thanks also to each of you who are listening. I am so filled with hope When you reach out and tell me that you are enjoying the episodes, and thank you for those of you who take the time to do that, today's episode was produced by me, Bonni Stachowiak. It was edited by the ever talented Andrew Kroeger. Podcast production support was provided by the amazing Sierra Priest. And if you've been listening for a while and haven't yet subscribed to the email updates, you gotta head over to teachinginhighered.com/subscribe.

Bonni Stachowiak [00:36:46]:
I'll see you next time on Teaching in Higher Ed.